Master UK Political Discussion Thread

[Tyke]

2 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

Problem is that this is an on-off situation with no grey area in the middle. Not helped by the fact that the vote was very close, the campaigning contravened electoral law, and incomplete information was proffered to the electorate by both sides. 

Agreed.

2 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

If the vote had been 60-40 either way the politicians job would have been easier. 

I doubt it. It would have been inconclusive, and the whole debate about the UK's relationship with the EU project would have just rumbled on.

 

On the subject of 60/40, I suggested to (teased, really) a Remain supporting friend, who had always said that we should have 60/40, that if we have a second referendum, now that the default position is to leave, it should require a 60% vote to overturn that and stay in. He wasn't particularly amused.

 

I would have more sympathy for TM if the deal she'd negotiated were better and, more importantly, had been achieved in a more inclusive way. She herself said many times that "No deal is better than a bad deal" and most people think that hers is a bad deal

[iff]

9 hours ago, Midland Tyke said:

 

I would have more sympathy for TM if the deal she'd negotiated were better and, more importantly, had been achieved in a more inclusive way. She herself said many times that "No deal is better than a bad deal" and most people think that hers is a bad deal

 

Or it shows how much more advantageous it is as part of a bloc for negotiations of 500 million compared to a country of £70 million

 

The negotiators for the brexit deal after brexit are going to have to sit down with China, Japan, USA and other countries and negotiate new deals with them too

 

Before the referendum, there were leave politicians telling everyone hat making a deal would be easy

 

11 hours ago, Ortac said:

Would it really have made a lot of difference? It seems that the Prime Minister and the hardened brexiteers have in their minds rounded 52% up to 100% and 48% down to 0% anyway. They keep harping on about the will of 17.4 million people, whilst the will of the some 16 million odd people who voted differently (plus the will of other brits who were DENIED A VOTE) is being completely ignored.

Nigel farage did say in may 2016 that 52-48 would be unfinished business

 

https://mobile.twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1107540393606955008

 

The yes voters of the 48% had a unified view. The 52% who voted no had different views, we heard a lot in the referendum of Norway, of Canada deal's, then there were those who voted for the £350million NHS per week. There are others who voted no for no deal, no relationship with the EU (what will happen on 30th march). There is a broad spectrum of views on those who voted leave.

 

Most of Those who voted hoping for a Norway or Canada type deal would be a lot closer to remain voters than the no dealers.

[Cheshire-Cat]

For anyone on the remain side there's a petition asking for article 50 to be revoked. Funnily enough it already has about 2 million signatures at the time of me posting this, and has broken the website a few times already due to the sheer numbers of people trying to sign.

 

I'd prefer we remain, however, if the referendum had been fair, and not filled with false promises and cheating, I'd be happy to accept the outcome. We can't say it was the will of the people when the people were given false information, that's a basic of valid informed consent.

[timewarp]

Andrea Leadsom has already said she will consider that petition if it reaches 17.4 million signatures. If the server keeps breaking down that's not likely to happen.

[Skycaptain]

Another half a million have signed in the last eight hours 

[Siimo van der fietspad]

A few thoughts to add to this discussion:

 

Bearing in mind that a tiny non-profit society such as a golf club or a music group require a 2/3 majority for fairly minor changes to their constitution, it is incomprehensible why the biggest economic decision for a generation could be enacted on such a tiny margin.

 

I do not understand May. Mainstream wisdom was that her plan was to stall for so long that she could play chicken and force a last-minute aversion to no deal because there was no time left. That assumes she is against no deal either because she fears it and/or because she wants to have her withdrawal agreement succeed, but all sources say that prior to last night she was resigned to no deal. Why? Was it because she had no idea from the start what to do and couldn't blag any more? Does the ERG or some other force have influence over her that she can't control? She could propose to do literally anything now, she is so universally despised and powerless there is no lower she can sink. I could be philosophical and speculate that this all is a natural consequence of the British attitude of thinking we can variously dictate what we want to the rest of the world, or else blag anything using waffle that works in boardrooms and media because the English can't ever talk straight and feign extreme politeness whilst really being as aggressive as any nation on earth. 

[Siimo van der fietspad]

19 hours ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

For anyone on the remain side there's a petition asking for article 50 to be revoked. Funnily enough it already has about 2 million signatures at the time of me posting this, and has broken the website a few times already due to the sheer numbers of people trying to sign.

 

I'd prefer we remain, however, if the referendum had been fair, and not filled with false promises and cheating, I'd be happy to accept the outcome. We can't say it was the will of the people when the people were given false information, that's a basic of valid informed consent.

I want to be very clear as well that I wouldn't care to live in a country where it wasn't democratically possible to decide and go through make a decision like this.

[iff]

55 minutes ago, Siimo said:

I could be philosophical and speculate that this all is a natural consequence of the British attitude of thinking we can variously dictate what we want to the rest of the world,

I said before that the expectation of some brexiteers was similar to breaking up with your partner but still having all the stuff in the relationship you liked and none of the stuff you don't like

[lapat67]

20 hours ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

For anyone on the remain side there's a petition asking for article 50 to be revoked. Funnily enough it already has about 2 million signatures at the time of me posting this

 

11 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

Another half a million have signed in the last eight hours 

3.6 million ...

[Sally]

Now; there's an even LONGER wait until the finality?

[Skycaptain]

The finality is that the difference between stay and go is less than the change in people in the electorate, and this will be the case every future referendum 

[timewarp]

Finally - there's a solution. Uri Geller will stop Brexit.

[andreas1033]

5 minutes ago, timewarp said:

Finally - there's a solution. Uri Geller will stop Brexit.

Typical opportunism from him.

 

The silent majority, are always quiet, but this guy plays on a minority, whom he thinks speaks for everyone.

[Siimo van der fietspad]

4 hours ago, iff said:

I said before that the expectation of some brexiteers was similar to breaking up with your partner but still having all the stuff in the relationship you liked and none of the stuff you don't like

Exactly. Having cake and eating it, promising unicorns etc. Indeed, this entire shameful, humiliating death spiral of squabbling amongst ourselves on the world stage instead of taking decisive action was, in hindsight, utterly predictable once our national values were applied to the situation. I don't mean the wishful thinking 'British Values' paraded in citizenship lessons ('democracy' and 'the rule of law' which have surely been thoroughly trashed even for the most doctrinaire), I mean the real national values of compulsively seeking outrage behind a mask of sycophantic overpoliteness; celebrating ignorance and mocking intelligence; exceptionalism and entitlement; refusal to compromise or admit mistakes; greed; and lazily tossing aside agency to an elite instead of taking responsibility. Many of these unsavoury characteristic were implied by the multitude of remarks made by EU negotiators concerning the talks. One commented on how based on the outside perception of Westminster as a model of government, they expected the British to be savvy, decisive negotiators. It soon became apparent that they were astonishingly ignorant of the workings of an organisation they had supposedly been a member of for fifty years. 

[daveb]

36 minutes ago, timewarp said:

Finally - there's a solution. Uri Geller will stop Brexit.

 

[Siimo van der fietspad]

 

[Ortac]

I LOVE Germans and I LOVE their humour! 

 

In particular the last bit of the video which starts at 7 minutes 15 seconds had me rolling on the floor hysterical with laughter!

[Guest Jetsun Milarepa]

9 hours ago, timewarp said:

Finally - there's a solution. Uri Geller will stop Brexit.

...and here's me thinking he already had!😆

The press conference with Mr Tusk saying that hell was still empty was a comedy classic. I'll try to post it for anyone who hasn't seen it yet.

 

[Guest Jetsun Milarepa]

BBC News - Brexit banter
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47662373

[Cheshire-Cat]

Anyone else slightly annoyed that truckers and the like have decided to have a go-slow (potentially repeated ones) in protest? Don't get me wrong, everyone is annoyed at the whole shambles but the remainers aren't blocking the roads and ports in protest.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

I haven't actually watched the news for a while so I have no idea what they're doing tbh.

[michaeld]

I wonder if the hardline Brexiteers in the Tory party (the ERG types) and the DUP will finally begin to realise that their voting down May's deal could lead to no Brexit at all, or possibly a much softer one. That might even be May's current strategy - floating the possibility of other options to get the hardliners to finally back her deal.

[Siimo van der fietspad]

6 hours ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

Anyone else slightly annoyed that truckers and the like have decided to have a go-slow (potentially repeated ones) in protest? Don't get me wrong, everyone is annoyed at the whole shambles but the remainers aren't blocking the roads and ports in protest.

They've been prosecuted for dangerous driving as they were blocking all lanes of roads below the minimum speed limit. This is ironic since British drivers are otherwise desperate to go as fast as possible and smash anyone slower out of their way.

[Siimo van der fietspad]

2 hours ago, michaeld said:

I wonder if the hardline Brexiteers in the Tory party (the ERG types) and the DUP will finally begin to realise that their voting down May's deal could lead to no Brexit at all, or possibly a much softer one. That might even be May's current strategy - floating the possibility of other options to get the hardliners to finally back her deal.

I wish you were right, but I think they're doing it for the opposite reason, to frustrate any agreement to ensure No Deal.  Probably some Remainers are voting against it in the belief that this keeps alive a chance of a softer deal or even revocation or eternal postponement, but not the ERG.  Working on the assumption that May ever had any plan other than to keep procrastinating is not solid ground, but if she ever did it was to play chicken so that everyone would be so horrified by the prospect of ND that they'd eventually crumble into supporting the WA at the last moment.  Or else, she decided months ago to go for broke and just let ND happen, as she might cling on to power and claim to have united her party. Never mind that some fanatics are genuinely salivating at ND, the WA is such a horrible Frankenstein's monster that pleases nobody that MPs who might have been sitting on the fence warmed to ND because it was less bad in front of their constituents. 

 

It would be nice to think that a critical mass of people with any power will see sense and at the least steer us to the softest exit possible, maybe even fix posterity to be remembered as heroes, but this is not likely for all sorts of reasons. The main one is that Brexiteers have both control of the head of government and the anger of the mob on their side and have no strong opposition against them because they are also afraid of the mob. This is why ND is still the most likely outcome, because the logic of this death spiral is that riots, international ridicule and decades of economic damage are still preferable to telling their constituents they didn't get quite everything they promised they could vote for. 

[michaeld]

Oh yes I know the ERG really want no deal. I'm saying they may eventually realise that cancelling brexit could be the result of their actions, rather than no deal. This may push them into the camp of voting for May's deal even though they would prefer no deal.

 

I actually don't think there are any particularly good reasons to vote against May's deal except that Brexit itself is a bad idea. The thing about the N.Irish backstop keeping the UK indefinitely tied to the EU is just an ERG fantasy. The rest of the deal is pretty much inevitable if we're leaving the single market as well as the EU. Labour leadership supposedly want a much softer Brexit, but at the same want to end freedom of movement with the EU, which isn't going to happen. So given they did actually vote to enact Article 50, I don't see much coherent reason for voting against the deal, except for political point scoring. (Here of course I'd make an exception for those MPs who did vote against Article 50...)

 

Of course it is still deeply satisfying every time the deal gets defeated - because I'm totally against Brexit in the first place - though worrying at the same time as it increases the chances of leaving without a deal. It's a head v. heart thing in my case... If I was an MP, I'd reluctantly vote for the deal as I'm fairly risk averse, and then be elated if I'm out-voted!

[Sally]

This was a question to ask several years ago, but since I didn't:  why did some people want Britain to exit the  EU?  What supposed ad;vantages would there be to doing so?  

[michaeld]

It varies hugely from person to person. Don't forget that leavers cut across the political spectrum, having strong support among both the right and the older working class left. For better or worse, here are some of the various reasons I've heard for voting leave.

• Being in the EU is giving up sovereignty as we are bound by decisions made in Brussels and Strasbourg.
• We send too much money to the EU (cf the infamous £350m claim).
• The EU is undemocratic, bureaucratic, wasteful etc.
• (related) Wanting to stick it to "unelected EU bureaucrats".
• Wanting to stick it to our own politicians.
• Wanting to protest against "London elites" (the UK equivalent of the US's "coastal elites")
• Wanting to end freedom of movement - either because they don't like so many foreigners or they are worried about them undercutting their jobs.
• Being against the European federalist project - and thinking if we stay, we'll be sucked in.
• Thinking if we stay we'll have to join the Eurozone.
• Thinking the whole edifice of the EU is going to collapse soon anyway, so we might as well be out.
• Thinking we can have all the benefits of being in the EU while having none of the obligations, because "they need us more than we need them" and as soon as we leave, the EU will be falling over themselves to give us a great deal - as will all other countries.
• (related) If we are outside, we can sign trade deals on our own terms, not via the EU.
• Remain are going to win anyway so I might as well vote leave (or not bother voting) as a protest.

 

There is speculation, I don't know how well founded, that some of the most egregious leavers - who seem to actually want us to leave without a deal - stand to gain financially from it, perhaps because they are effectively shorting the UK by betting against the pound with their investments. So that could be another reason, albeit one I haven't heard anyone openly make for obvious reasons....

 

Of course if you are to expand the question of why you'd want the UK out of the EU beyond the UK itself, anyone who has an interest in destabilising the entire EU block would favour the UK leaving. For example Russia...

[Cheshire-Cat]

Another reason I've heard is to not allow other European countries to fish in our waters as their quotas are often 3x that of our boats.

[Skycaptain]

What gets me is, and I've had the misfortune to meet them, there are people who genuinely believe that leaving Europe will give us carte blanche (pun intended) to turn Britain into a white only nation 

 

@Siimo, I can understand prosecuting truckers for running in lane 3 of motorways, which is illegal, but as we have no mínimum speed limit on motorways how can they be prosecuted for going slowly? 

[Siimo van der fietspad]

45 minutes ago, Skycaptain said:

What gets me is, and I've had the misfortune to meet them, there are people who genuinely believe that leaving Europe will give us carte blanche (pun intended) to turn Britain into a white only nation 

 

@Siimo, I can understand prosecuting truckers for running in lane 3 of motorways, which is illegal, but as we have no mínimum speed limit on motorways how can they be prosecuted for going slowly? 

There are also people who believe that the rest of the world will never stop owing us for fighting 1939-1945 and this justifies us demanding anything we want. I have heard this articulated in person.

 

Perhaps not a legally defined minimum speed limit, but the police yesterday prosecuted on the grounds that the convoy of both cars and trucks was travelling a such a disparity from the expected speed of an unrestricted road or motorway that it constituted a danger to other road users. They had been permitted to go slow in one lane but were using both/all.