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The trouble with accepting the referendum result is that the whole thing was ill-prepared. As is increasingly evident, the campaigns bent the rules. There was no preparation for the possibility of a leave win, which is clearly disrespectful towards leave voters, and which is also a big part of the current problems (and also the thing that Tusk was complaining about, although he didn't mention the special place in hell for David Cameron, which is a big shame). The referendum bill could have demanded or more decisive majority too.

 

Next mistake was to trigger article 50 before it was clear what the plan should be. That would have been the time for another referendum - this time asking the electorate how Brexit should be implemented. Leave the customs union? Leave the single market? Leave Euratom? Leave Erasmus? Leave ESA? Leave Galileo? Leave the ECMWF? etc etc etc.

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

....and now it seems Italy has offended France and diplomats have been called back to Paris in the huff.

Could we be seeing discontent spreading in the european superstate? 

Surely not, just as we are about to choose our song for the Eurovision song contest! 😜

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I just got into James O'Brien and his debates with Brexiteers. It's shocking (and hilarious) how their argumets crumble if poked just a tiny little bit.

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7 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

The entire referendum happened because the Leave side refused to accept a previous referendum. For 43 years.

This. Totally, utterly, this. Can someone please just, I dunno find a way to like broadcast this to UKIP and Farage? 

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I'm in two minds as to whether i think Tusk was frustrated or calculating when he made his Hell comment. Since it will spread discord and increase the likelihood of an A50 cancellation but...

 

In any event, as someone said, I don't think it's a fair comment to make about the Brexiteers who genuinely think Brexit is for the best. People like Cameron and Johnson who got us into this mess for their own ends without thinking about what would happen if we voted to leave however, I have mainly contempt for.

 

(To be clear, by mess, I mean the sheer lack of thinking pre vote about how Brexit would be effected...)

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On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 12:28 AM, Homer said:

I just got into James O'Brien and his debates with Brexiteers. It's shocking (and hilarious) how their argumets crumble if poked just a tiny little bit.

 

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Junker is SUPPOSED to be the negotiator, for him to come out with a puerile remark like that and go sniggering off the stage is not the speech or actions to be expected from someone in his position, and may have the opposite reaction to that intended ( though I have no doubt it was intended as an insult)
What concerns me is, should the leave decision be revoked and Britain asks to remain, what would be the penalty? How much of our rebate would we be allowed to retain? Any at all? Would we be forced to adopt the Euro? Some member states would love to be able to float their currency - makes imports more expensive but exports more competitive  Because there WILL be consequences to ensure no other member state has the audacity to question the great Brussels organisation.
 

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On 1/18/2019 at 11:38 PM, OptimisticPessimist said:

I still don't understand Brexit. 

Somehow still relevant nearly 3 years later, just with minor changes:

On 2/6/2019 at 11:10 PM, iff said:

I think The special place in hell for those in political positionswho advocated and promoted brexit without a plan

(note I'm not a fan of the SNP but gotta love the burn)

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2 hours ago, Frankentan said:

How much of our rebate would we be allowed to retain? Any at all?

The rebate is dead as a dodo. Quite frankly nobody in the rest of Europe would tolerate it to come back - it is simply an unfair advantage the UK used to have. The astonishing thing is that Margaret Thatcher managed to negotiate it in the first place.

 

It's also worth mentioning that the 350 million nonsense on the red buses conveniently ignored the rebate.

 

2 hours ago, Frankentan said:

Junker is SUPPOSED to be the negotiator, for him to come out with a puerile remark like that and go sniggering off the stage is not the speech or actions to be expected from someone in his position,

What is it that Juncker has done? The only comment in recent times that was provocative came from Donald Tusk. The EU negotiator is and has always been Michel Barnier.

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Junker was only saying that those who had no plans should rot in hell. He was not saying Brexiters as a whole should rot. 

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On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 8:49 PM, Skycaptain said:

Junker was only saying that those who had no plans should rot in hell. He was not saying Brexiters as a whole should rot. 

 

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But did Juncker also say anything like that? That would be new to me. To my knowledge it was only Tusk.

 

(Juncker did comment though that the only hell he's ever experienced is the European commission.)

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11 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Tut. You and your insistence on actual facts. Typical remainer. 

Not quite. I was not allowed to vote, but I wouldn't have known how to decide. Both campaigns were equally rubbish and I still can't see anything beyond the smoke screens and red herrings. It's just all deeply irrational, on both sides.

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 11:24 AM, timewarp said:

Not quite. I was not allowed to vote, but I wouldn't have known how to decide. Both campaigns were equally rubbish and I still can't see anything beyond the smoke screens and red herrings. It's just all deeply irrational, on both sides.

 

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Personal opinion. I voted remain, because Britain needs Europe more than Europe needs us. The only Europeans worse off will be the German car industry. I am thousands of pounds per annum worse off due to a combination of reduced costs and reduced income. I hope that everyone who voted leave will be made to recompense everyone who has lost money because of this 

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Don't worry about the German car industry, @Skycaptain. They own a huge chunk of the British car industry and that's where people will get fired first.

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7 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

 

The fact that the losing side has tried many different ways to manipulate the result, the winning side didn't have a cohesive plan, and the EU cannot and will not negotiate in good faith, all highlights how utterly broken democracy in Europe is, how untrustworthy the elites are, and how likely serious social division (or worse) is going to become.

Could also say the leave side manipulated the results by the electoral laws they broke to obtain the winning margin. It was a small margin so the electoral laws broken would have had a material effect on the result

 

 

Could you explain further why you believe the EU isn't negotiating "in good faith"

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I wish brexit would just go away so the government could fix our country already. The school system, nhs, benefits system, everything is in crisis and instead they're wasting time on this. There is a huge homeless problem at the moment, high child poverty levels and they have barely moved on anything for months! If this continues I don't know what will happen because people are getting angry and fed up.

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 7:42 PM, iff said:

Could also say the leave side manipulated the results by the electoral laws they broke to obtain the winning margin. It was a small margin so the electoral laws broken would have had a material effect on the result

 

 

Could you explain further why you believe the EU isn't negotiating "in good faith"

 

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1 hour ago, Dreamsexual said:

Agreed about the leave campaign.

I don't think the EU have been negotiating in good faith primarily because of the way them seem to be using Ireland and the backstop.  I'm pretty sure a no hard border tech solution could be reached, but they seem to be refusing, using the Good Friday agreement and the fears of the old troubles as a stick.  That's not good.

but theresa may said in september in belfast. What has changed since September 2018?

 

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And no technology solution to address these issues has been designed yet, or implemented anywhere in the world, let alone in such a unique and highly sensitive context as the Northern Ireland border.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/theresa-mays-keynote-address-at-belfasts-waterfront-hall-full-speech-37138123.html

 

if uk crashed out without a deal and no border, without border checks, what is to stop me and my brother going to newry with a van full of ham, pork, lamb and other meat products to take advantage of brexit and no checks to sell cheap meat.

 

without free movement of people but no border checks to check it, what is to stop us from actually going to newry without anyone checking that we should be in enniskillen or if a person  flew to dublin airport from rome then got a bus to dundalk and another bus to newry , but nothing would stop them. ow would the hi-tech solution tell that the person who flew to rome shouldn't be there at all without border checks. how would the hi-tech solutions stop the guy from rome going to newry in this example or know that he went to newry. trains also run between dundalk and newry.

 

i'm using newry in this example as newry is under 1 hour from dublin airport

 

i crossed the border 2 times last september to attend a tax seminar as the exit on the motorway crosses into the uk then the road to the seminar venue crosses back into the republic

 

is there any where where the countries are not part of a customs union that hasn't a hard border between them in the world that would be workable?

 

in the days before i visited derry last year, there had been three bomb alerts in the city (including one the night before at hotel my group was staying in. It is something to hear, "there was a bomb alert there last night" . in january, there was a car bomb that exploded in derry and further then 3 security incidents involving terrorists on the monday following. (It annoyed me that this hadn't made the bbc national news broadcast at 10pm that monday night, nor was that on the front page of the bbc news website on that monday.)

 

Northern Ireland is very volatile.

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 10:03 PM, iff said:

 

Northern Ireland is very volatile

 

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17 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

Which is why it shouldn't be part of trade negotiations 

How can that happen?

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 11:09 PM, iff said:

How can that happen?

 

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 11:16 PM, Telecaster68 said:

The problem isn't the EU, it's the unionists. They want a hard border because otherwise NI is being treated differently to the rest of the Britain. 

 

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28 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The problem isn't the EU, it's the unionists. They want a hard border because otherwise NI is being treated differently to the rest of the Britain. 

Yes, a work colleague of mine said before the vote that the dup would want to see the border back up.

 

32 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

Everyone agrees that given this very special circumstance that will be no hard border even if it means Ireland has to be treated differently to other EU countries. 

So your solution is to kick Ireland out of the single market and make us a dominion/client state of the uk.

 

Pretty sure that would require a referendum here and i don't think ireland leaving the single market to be dependent on any deals london makes would not pass. A lot of people in Ireland would see this as revocation of our independence.

 

 

Quote

 It seems to me that the EU won't even consider this, even under these highly volatile circumstances, which is simply hardball for political reasons since the tech exists to solve the issue.

But as I quoted above,  Theresa may said in September that the tech doesn't exist. What breakthrough in technology has been the last 5 moths?

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 11:44 PM, iff said:

So your solution is to kick Ireland out of the single market and make us a dominion/client state of the uk.

 

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 11:44 PM, iff said:

Theresa may said in September that the tech doesn't exist. What breakthrough in technology has been the last 5 moths?

 

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Just now, Dreamsexual said:

How so?  Ireland wouldn't be kicked out of the single market, why would it??

But you said:

 

36 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

even if it means Ireland has to be treated differently to other EU countries.

How would Ireland be treated differently to the rest of EU?

 

2 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

And lots of Brexiteers have said the tech is available.  I think they are right.

What evidence and examples of this in use for border controls is there?

 

As I asked earlier:

 

1 hour ago, iff said:

 

is there any where where the countries are not part of a customs union that hasn't a hard border between them in the world that would be workable

 

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On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 11:53 PM, iff said:

How would Ireland be treated differently to the rest of EU

 

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