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I Think She Avoids Me...


Veggie4

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I’m with ceebs on this one.  I think it has a lot more to do with a sense of personal privacy than it does with being trustworthy or not.  I grew up in a household where it was strongly stressed that paper mail is private and only to be opened by the addressee, no one (including the other parent) goes into mom’s purse or dad’s wallet, no one pokes through other people’s drawers, etc.  That plus working in/closely with IT security, where you never give out your passcode, leave me feeling like someone else touching my stuff without permission is a violation.

 

I, too, rarely have anything on my phone that *needs* hiding.  It’s just invasive and personally embarrassing to me.

 

I agree with the others who’ve said if you strongly suspect your partner of true wrongdoing and are looking for legal evidence, searching for it may be necessary... but to me by the time it gets to that point the trust is already long gone.

 

I also know that - in the aftermath of a significant breach of trust - the person who committed the offense is normally advised to be an open book.  I haven’t personally found that helpful but for some people it must be.

 

I would be more concerned about changes in behavior (someone who has never had a password on a phone suddenly does and will no longer let anyone else use it) than I would about the behavior (open versus private) itself.

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4 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

well, the converse is... if you aren't comfortable with a partner looking at your phone/computer... do you really trust them?

I don’t trust anyone on the planet - especially someone I have to see face-to-face - not to hurt me (potentially accidentally, not necessarily maliciously) with things I meant to keep private.

 

I am very sensitive to being teased about the wrong things, for example, and those “wrong” things could seem quite innocuous to someone else.

 

It’s self-protective...

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5 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

Yes? How would merely wanting privacy on my own device indicate me not trusting them? Not trust them to... what?

For me, I may trust them 100% to be upstanding and to always do their best to do the right thing/to do what they believe is right by me.

 

That still doesn’t mean I feel comfortable having them root through my private stuff.

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4 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

Yes? How would merely wanting privacy on my own device indicate me not trusting them? Not trust them to... what?

Trusting them to...

not think less of you if they find something embarrassing
not misuse this access in various ways

respect the privacy of what's there and not share what they might see with others

not dig and seek things gratuitously

talk to me if they find something that concerns them...

So... there's a nuance here. I'm comfortable with access -- and I trust someone to not be weird about using it. I don't expect them to be rooting through it unless they have good reason for it, and I trust them to talk to me if there's something that concerns them.

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5 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

there's genuinely nothing in my personal notes or on my camera roll or in any of my communication with anyone else that I couldn't theoretically share... but it's still a personal device that I wouldn't like poked through without my permission. Which seems quite reasonable to me. Like I said somewhere above, I feel weird using anyone else's device even if they've directly told me to do so, haha. I'm like... please watch me the entire time I'm on it, which I will keep to an absolute minimum, so you know I'm not doing weird creeper stuff.

Same.

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3 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

not think less of you if they find something embarrassing

For me it’s more that *I* think less of me if they find something embarrassing... or I think it’s horrifying and they think it’s adorable.  Ugh.

 

It’s just a visceral skin-crawly thing.

 

My mom’s off-limits purse was just lipstick, a key, a tissue, and her ID/cards.  I even felt creepy going through it after she died, as the executrix of her estate.

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4 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

For me it’s more that *I* think less of me if they find something embarrassing... or I think it’s horrifying and they think it’s adorable.  Ugh.

 

It’s just a visceral skin-crawly thing.

 

My mom’s off-limits purse was just lipstick, a key, a tissue, and her ID/cards.  I even felt creepy going through it after she died, as the executrix of her estate.

I guess my physical world equivalent is when I think "oh shit I wonder if someone saw my sex toy"

 

and then I think "I am such a dumbass I should have put that somewhere safer"

but also then "fine whatever I have a sex toy, I'm embarrassed they might have seen it, but whatever, let's move on"

It might be that I don't have much embarrassment left in me these days. I remember being so self-conscious in the first childbirth about my body, and later I was like "whatever, it's a body, it shits and such, you've seen hundreds".

... and now thanks to AVEN and/or my partner's sexuality, I fear I've started feeling like that about sex, hah.

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1 hour ago, anisotropic said:

well, the converse is... if you aren't comfortable with a partner looking at your phone/computer... do you really trust them?

 

(I don't mean to disrespect others privacy preferences, only pointing out that this cuts both ways.)

But say you were planning a surprise party by e-mail for your partner and they were demanding to see your e-mails, then this would either spoil the surprise or spoil the relationship.

 

Or presents might be ordered through the e-mail, again that would ruin the surprise.

 

My personal e-mail has income tax of other people on it, other people's financial information and a partner accessing it would be a serious breach of confidentiality.

 

I need boundaries, I need personal space and I would need a partner to understand and respect it.

 

 

Quote

 

my partner and I continuously share google map location (it's a feature you can turn on!) it's actually pretty convenient sometimes :) 

And that is your choice to do so but i feel it is different when it is being forced by the partner to share it with them which if that were the case, I would feel that I was being controlled

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25 minutes ago, iff said:

 

My personal e-mail has income tax of other people on it, other people's financial information and a partner accessing it would be a serious breach of confidentiality

I expect my spouse not to breach confidentiality; certainly if he were motivated to do so, he could intercept a variety of confidential things -- and I expect I'd be able to do the same to him. Legally, there is spousal privilege to protect spouses against being forced to disclose confidential information.

 

The presents thing is annoying during the holidays. We try, and if a leak occurs, have the grace to act surprised? :)
 

28 minutes ago, iff said:

And that is your choice to do so but i feel it is different when it is being forced by the partner to share it with them which if that were the case, I would feel that I was being controlled

This isn't a forced thing? A convenience & sometimes safety thing. A family member was using it to share with someone else, and told us about it. The feature *exists* because some people use it.

My point is that you make it out as if it's ridiculous to share such with a statement like "what else?" ... and I was saying "yeah, sure, actually, I share that too"

I'm not saying it's ridiculous or strange to want privacy, but I don't think one should assume it's ridiculous or strange to be comfortable with sharing. People have different preferences, different contexts of cons/risks-of-sharing.

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12 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

I wasn't jealous of his past feelings for her, rather that I was jealous of the way she communicated with him

awww... it can be really hard to work out why something is upsetting!

 

of course, people can get dysfunctional without private access, obsessively tracking someone's online behavior e.g. in social media

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On 1/22/2019 at 7:33 PM, Veggie4 said:

he, I have not done it. I do not suspect her of anything, but sometimes I had the opportunity and I had a moral dilemma.
 

If you had a dilemma that means you don't trust her at all.

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1 hour ago, anisotropic said:

I guess my physical world equivalent is when I think "oh shit I wonder if someone saw my sex toy"

For me (it’s more mental stuff, but) the physical world equivalent would be more like “my boss saw my sex toy!” because a partner seeing that might be mildly embarrassing but more of a “whatever.”

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32 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

I'm not saying it's ridiculous or strange to want privacy, but I don't think one should assume it's ridiculous or strange to be comfortable with sharing. People have different preferences, different contexts of cons/risks-of-sharing.

Completely agreed, which is why I said I would be more worried about a change in behavior within a particular individual than I would be consistent-but-different behavior from person to person.

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1 hour ago, anisotropic said:

This isn't a forced thing? A convenience & sometimes safety thing. A family member was using it to share with someone else, and told us about it. The feature *exists* because some people use it.


My point is that you make it out as if it's ridiculous to share such with a statement like "what else?" ... and I was saying "yeah, sure, actually, I share that too"

I'm not saying it's ridiculous or strange to want privacy, but I don't think one should assume it's ridiculous or strange to be comfortable with sharing. People have different preferences, different contexts of cons/risks-of-sharing.

I think I had been unclear in my original post where the instant i was thinking abour the person might want to review their partners location a week afterwards to check up where they want because of suspicions rather than the instances you mention, which would be of a practical purpose.

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Hmm. My idea is more there is a suspicion - you ask - you know the answer is untrue - you look to find evidence and immediately talk to them about it. 

 

Which of course trust is already gone. You were lied to and investigated your partner. Trust disintegrated. 

 

But, sometimes it is the only way to get an honest confession of the lie. 

 

With sharing, my partner is some odd combo of ani and ceebs. She doesnt mind me seeing some things, but others are private. When I use her phone, I dont go into email or anything. I use the browser, or take photos, etc. I could, its logged in but I dont touch facebook (despite her being flirtatious with an ex sexual partner still) or whatsapp or email etc. When I visited her last, her computer has some writings and stuff and she said I could look but then got uncomfy and changed her mind, so I closed it. It is a this boundary is here, that boundary is there thing. Having a device off limits would feel rather secretive, but we have certain lines not to cross with the devices. Like, if there was a folder marked dont look on the PC, could put stuff there and it would be safe. 

 

I dont really get keeping devices off limits, if you discuss boundaries and trust the person to not go beyond them. Go into my purse, use my PC, use my phone, check my texts for me while i am driving please. But, dont read personal convos unless I say so cause might involve other peoples secrets. And if I couldnt trust a partner to follow those boundaries I would struggle to be with them. 

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30 minutes ago, Serran said:

My idea is more there is a suspicion - you ask - you know the answer is untrue - you look to find evidence and immediately talk to them about it. 

 

Which of course trust is already gone. You were lied to and investigated your partner. Trust disintegrated. 

*nods*

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35 minutes ago, Serran said:

Having a device off limits would feel rather secretive, but we have certain lines not to cross with the devices. Like, if there was a folder marked dont look on the PC, could put stuff there and it would be safe.

yeah, I think this is how it works with us -- we don't actually do anything explicit like a folder, but a sense of what sorts of things are expected?

Like, it would be surprising and unexpected if he read my email... but I can imagine it might become necessary. I'd expect him to let me know, be open about having done it? For example, I can imagine it being needed to search my email for something kid/family related that didn't get sent to him.

 

If he got suspicious and checked something because of that, I don't think I'd be too upset about it, but I really hope he'd talk about what worried him.

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48 minutes ago, Serran said:

I dont really get keeping devices off limits, if you discuss boundaries and trust the person to not go beyond them. Go into my purse, use my PC, use my phone, check my texts for me while i am driving please. But, dont read personal convos unless I say so cause might involve other peoples secrets. And if I couldnt trust a partner to follow those boundaries I would struggle to be with them. 

I guess for me it’s mostly that there is exactly nothing in places like that - my phone, my purse, even my home computer - that someone else would need access to without going through me.  If my partner needs to use one of my credit cards, for example, I would expect them to ask rather than just grabbing one.

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9 hours ago, Homer said:

Good thing we don't have to be in a relationship then :)

Absolutely. Not sure how I’d cope with someone who acts suspiciously like they’re cheating but wants to keep the phone secret. I much prefer transparency.

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2 minutes ago, James121 said:

Not sure how I’d cope with someone who acts suspiciously like they’re cheating but wants to keep the phone secret.

What about someone who doesn’t act a bit like they’re cheating and wants to keep their stuff private?

 

By the time anyone is checking bills and phones to look for proof of cheating the relationship is already in a world of hurt...

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2 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I guess for me it’s mostly that there is exactly nothing in places like that - my phone, my purse, even my home computer - that someone else would need access to without going through me.  If my partner needs to use one of my credit cards, for example, I would expect them to ask rather than just grabbing one.

If my partner is in the shower and her phone is on charge and mine is missing, it would be really annoying if I had to wait on her to call mine to find it. Or if we are in the car it would be annoying to wait for her to stop for gas or something to unlock her phone for me to access her music playlists. Or the doggies are being adorable and my phone is dead but I want a picture ! 

 

Which is why off limits would annoy me lol I dont see how people do it without being frustrated. I have more access to my coworkers devices than you guys would give a partner. :o

 

And she keeps her money and stuff in my purse sometimes so it would suck to have to wait for me to get it. 

 

But then like credit cards, I added her to all mine anyway so she has her own access to them. I just kinda decided to trust my partner wont do anything she shouldnt with my stuff, even with full access. 

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I have zero access to my coworkers’ devices (and vice versa) so maybe it’s partly cultural (in the geographic area sense, not in the country-wide sense)?

 

None of those situations you describe ever happened to me or my former partner.  Normally each of us had our phones with us, but if his was lying somewhere I would never have thought to touch it without asking unless he had instructed me to watch for a call.

 

I guess it doesn’t frustrate me because I don’t even think of other people’s phones as something I could use if I don’t have mine handy...  if I don’t have mine, I just don’t have it.  I might ask someone else for the time or whatever but it would never occur to me to touch another phone unless it was clearly lost/abandoned.

 

Ditto my purse.  I sometimes carried something for my former partner in it, like daily pills, but only if we were out somewhere... at which point my purse would be on me.   He would literally have had to reach past one or both of my hands to get into it.

 

I grew up with “the driver controls the temperature, radio, and other adjustments,” so I would likewise never change something (phone or otherwise) while someone else was driving (unless they asked me to).  If I hated a song or it was painfully loud I would just ask them to change it.

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25 minutes ago, Serran said:

But then like credit cards, I added her to all mine anyway so she has her own access to them. I just kinda decided to trust my partner wont do anything she shouldnt with my stuff, even with full access. 

To me it’s not a trust thing, it’s more a politeness thing - you (the universal you, not you personally) don’t use other people’s things unless they actively offer them to you.

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15 hours ago, Ceebs. said:

Perhaps I just balk at the idea on a personal level for other reasons. I have always required a certain level of privacy that has nothing to do with whether I'm hiding anything and everything to do with some things being deeply personal. I have things on my phone that are for no one else besides myself. I'm not talking about anything adult-y and explicit or sexual in any way; I mean more like things I've written or images I've saved that are just... for me. Private. Perhaps pertaining to mental health stuff or whatever.

I am very much like this. I have embarrassing stuff about myself, for my reference that I dont want others seeing. 

 

14 hours ago, Ceebs. said:

Even touching someone else's phone with permission makes me feel like I'm crossing a line hahaha. Like, whoa, wait, why are you letting me do this. 😂

This too. When I caught my ex cheating, they gave me their passwords, but not once did I use it to see if they were cheating anymore, it felt so gross to look. Just decided to end the relationship in my mind, but because of their self harm threat continued to pretend to be in relationship until they were in better place.

 

12 hours ago, anisotropic said:

Trusting them to...

not think less of you if they find something embarrassing
not misuse this access in various ways

respect the privacy of what's there and not share what they might see with others

not dig and seek things gratuitously

talk to me if they find something that concerns them...

I am trying very hard to be this person. I really want to be in a relationship where partner and I are open with each other and where I don't have to blindly assume they are being honest. I am going to write this down as a reminder to myself xD

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I just realized that I can be very open if circumstances required that. Maybe since my relationship was mostly long distance I never felt like being as open. If I were to live with partner and our lives were so dependent on each other, then I can see myself becoming like @anisotropic. Like when I travel, strangers become friends and we rely on each other a lot even if its just for a day or few. So, I have given them access to my phone and cards. And they have done the same too. So far no one has misused this trust and nothing bad has ever happened.

 

6 hours ago, ryn2 said:

What about someone who doesn’t act a bit like they’re cheating and wants to keep their stuff private?

I have seen people who are such bad communicators they unnecessarily create an air of suspicion. Here is a simple example that I experienced. I had to literally drill them with questions to get a simple answer. Would have been easier to just check their "private" stuff and get the answer LOL. It was not even a cheating circumstance, they were just a friend but I was worried something terrible was going on in their life.

Me: "Hey, someone is trying to reach you desperately. Check your phone/email and see whats up"

Them: "Yeah"

Me: "Who is it? Is something wrong?"

Them: "They were bored and contacted"

The reply I expected without having to ask 10 follow up questions: "They are someone I was friends with X years ago and we have since drifted apart. Its weird they desperately wanted to contact me out of the blue when they had nothing much to say except how are you".

Still dunno if the person was simply an ex friend, lover, crush but decided its none of my business *shrugs*

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I would have no problem glancing at my phone and saying “no idea, it’s not someone in my contacts” or “it’s [x]; looks like she’s drunk - I’ll see what she wants when we’re done” or whatever.  I also have no problem with someone asking me why my phone is buzzing like crazy.  I just don’t want them grabbing it away from me to look on their own.

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11 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I have zero access to my coworkers’ devices (and vice versa) so maybe it’s partly cultural (in the geographic area sense, not in the country-wide sense)?

 

None of those situations you describe ever happened to me or my former partner.  Normally each of us had our phones with us, but if his was lying somewhere I would never have thought to touch it without asking unless he had instructed me to watch for a call.

 

I guess it doesn’t frustrate me because I don’t even think of other people’s phones as something I could use if I don’t have mine handy...  if I don’t have mine, I just don’t have it.  I might ask someone else for the time or whatever but it would never occur to me to touch another phone unless it was clearly lost/abandoned.

 

Ditto my purse.  I sometimes carried something for my former partner in it, like daily pills, but only if we were out somewhere... at which point my purse would be on me.   He would literally have had to reach past one or both of my hands to get into it.

 

I grew up with “the driver controls the temperature, radio, and other adjustments,” so I would likewise never change something (phone or otherwise) while someone else was driving (unless they asked me to).  If I hated a song or it was painfully loud I would just ask them to change it.

Maybe ...

 

I grew up with anything in the house is shared. My parents didnt keep stuff off limits. I could have gotten their credit cards or anything I wanted, but never did. We had a shared computer, no private devices. We were allowed to change stuff in the car or in the house since I could remember. We just were expected to be mindful to not make it uncomfy to others and know and respect boundaries. Thats been the rules since I was ... er... 4? 

 

My family never expects knocking on doors etc to enter either. You just come in, you are family, so everything is open. 

 

For work, I work with a teacher and she gives me her password and trusts I wont go into her devices for more than I need to. Some of her lessons on there so if shes out, I need to get them. But some private stuff like emails are too and no way would I go into that. I go for what I know I am allowed to. She also needs photos of classroom stuff so she has me use her private phone and stuff for that at times. And other coworkers give me their devices to fix or whatever, so I end up using most my (immediate) coworkers devices at one point or another. 

 

I dont mind there being off limits places on the devices and stuff not to look at in the house, but if there were off limits rules as in dont touch this, it would feel so weird given everyone else in my life is more open than that. 

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2 minutes ago, Serran said:

My family never expects knocking on doors etc to enter either. You just come in, you are family, so everything is open

Hah, yeah, I was actually thinking about this after I posted.  My family was the opposite of this; even if you had a key for emergencies/knew where the spare key was, you knocked/rang the doorbell and waited to be let in.  You also called ahead rather than randomly showing up.

 

I know people locally whose families were not like that, or where that would even be considered odd or rude, but I also know other people whose families were very similar to mine.

 

I know from past experience (not with most recent ex) that trying to mix the two is challenging and leads to a lot of fights.

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6 minutes ago, Serran said:

For work, I work with a teacher and she gives me her password and trusts I wont go into her devices for more than I need to.

Where I work this is grounds for termination on the first offense although it it’s done innocently and no harm comes of it both parties usually do get a warning.

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4 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Where I work this is grounds for termination on the first offense although it it’s done innocently and no harm comes of it both parties usually do get a warning.

Well I have like her privateish devices access. Like her personal tablet from home has the digital lessons on it, as well as her personal stuff. Im sure your coworkers could share private passwords if they wanted. 

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