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MGTOW, Incels, PUA's, & MRA's

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uhtred
15 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

That seems kind of a pointless waste of emotional energy.

Pity / empathy are not under voluntary control.   

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 5:44 PM, Ceebs. said:

Your use of that smiley face in almost every single post you make is confusing.

 

:)

 

 

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QueenOfTheRats
31 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

It's not under volitional control.  Same as most emotions. :). I just do pity humans.  It's how I'm wired.

I value people's feelings, but I think some feelings are more valid than others. In other words, there is a hierarchy, and people's survival needs come before any sort of luxury.

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CBC
19 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Pity / empathy are not under voluntary control.   

Mm yeah, ok, that's true. I guess I have personal trouble relating to truly feeling pity for the entirety of humanity. Perhaps sort of a more detached intellectualised "sucks to be a human sometimes" thing, because life is hard and the world can feel -- and actually be -- pretty cruel at times, but I think if I felt pity for every single person, I'd be far too paralysed by my own emotions to function. And I already struggle with that enough due to mental health crap, so. I know people who claim such a high degree of empathy that they worry about everything and everyone constantly, and at some point it stops seeming like true empathy and more like something kind of selfish. Generally I experience empathy for those I love deeply or in specific situations I actually encounter (say... if I witnessed someone get assaulted). Of course, I guess I don't exactly know how Dreamsexual means it when he says he pities all humans. Perhaps he just means it in that more detached way as well.

 

18 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

Confusing?  How so?  I'm merely trying to indicate the friendly tone I make my comment sin, so as to help people read them in the right 'voice'. :)

Sometimes you use it after critical comments to others (which I have no problem with; I make them myself), which makes it seem kind of snarky. 

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 6:06 PM, QueenOfTheRats said:

I value people's feelings, but I think some feelings are more valid than others. In other words, there is a hierarchy, and people's survival needs come before any sort of luxury.

 

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QueenOfTheRats
5 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

Of course.  But that doesn't affect my posts :). I wasn't trying to equate food to sex.  Merely saying that life doesn't owe us anything.

Evolutionary you are right, but that's why we form governments complex societies, etc. Otherwise it would just be survival of the fittest, right? none of us would live past 40. My point is, that as a SOCIETY we should be putting food/shelter as a higher priority than people's desire to have sex whenever they want. Incels have it twisted where they think sex is more important, and to me that shows a lack of perspective. Life does not owe you sex. Period.

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 6:07 PM, Ceebs. said:

too paralysed by my own emotions to function

 

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 6:12 PM, QueenOfTheRats said:

Incels have it twisted where they think sex is more important, and to me that shows a lack of perspective.

 

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QueenOfTheRats
1 minute ago, Dreamsexual said:

Well, I guess that's very subjective.  Many men rate sex very highly, above all kinds of things.  And some animals will kill themselves for sex.  I don't think we should underestimate the strength of the male allo human sex drive.  Some might well choose to die or live in physical pain in return for sex.

People can live without sex. If they are grumpy about it, that's their problem. if they resort to rape and prostitutes, they deserve to be punished by the full force of the law. I don't give a shit about people's sexual needs.

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 6:20 PM, QueenOfTheRats said:

People can live without sex

 

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uhtred
1 hour ago, QueenOfTheRats said:

People can live without sex. If they are grumpy about it, that's their problem. if they resort to rape and prostitutes, they deserve to be punished by the full force of the law. I don't give a shit about people's sexual needs.

Yes, but many cannot be happy without it.  Daylight, freedom, friends, etc are not really necessary for life.  Solitary confinement in prison provides everything a person *needs*, but is considered torture by many.  I'm not saying that society "owes" people sex, but I think its worth thinking about how to solve a source of significant unhappiness for a lot of people. 

 

I'm with you on rape being clearly a crime.   Prostitution - I'm not convinced.  I don't see a problem with a system that allows people to voluntarily exchange sex for money.  I feel like its illegality is what causes problems for prostitution. 

 

 

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QueenOfTheRats
1 hour ago, Dreamsexual said:

People can live in terrible physical pain and anguish too.  Doesn't mean they'd prefer massively not to, or even find death preferable (what's the incel suicide rate, I wonder?)

 

I think you're finding it hard to empathise with people very different to yourself.  Maybe to them, lack of sex (or what that means - ie acceptance, status, love) leads to crippling depression and terrible self loathing.  

Plenty of (sexual)people live without sex and don't commit suicide or homicide. If that is what incels are alleging, they have bigger problems than being virgins. Just look at their forums, the people there are so unhinged, they are just looking for a scapegoat and latch on to, and make it about "women, not giving them sex." Women dont owe incels sex, and are not bad people for not fucking them. Some movements are just trash, we don't need to be legitimizing incels or mgtow, they are inherently toxic. I get they have problems, but there are better ways to address these problems then legitimizing their pitiful world view.

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QueenOfTheRats
2 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Yes, but many cannot be happy without it.  Daylight, freedom, friends, etc are not really necessary for life.  Solitary confinement in prison provides everything a person *needs*, but is considered torture by many.  I'm not saying that society "owes" people sex, but I think its worth thinking about how to solve a source of significant unhappiness for a lot of people. 

 

I'm with you on rape being clearly a crime.   Prostitution - I'm not convinced.  I don't see a problem with a system that allows people to voluntarily exchange sex for money.  I feel like its illegality is what causes problems for prostitution. 

 

 

if you cant be happy without sex, you wont be happy with it.

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 7:45 PM, QueenOfTheRats said:

Plenty of (sexual)people live without sex and don't commit suicide or homicide.

 

 

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Sure rants alot

I had to go look up all of these terms. OMG. I admit, since I'm 66 I'm may be out of touch but wow. Could some of the men on here explain to me what happened over the years. It used to be if a man was hot and bothered and didn't have a companion, he'd go in the bathroom with some porn and toss off until he got relief or he'd buy a sex toy of some kind or he would save his dollars and hire a prostitute. I'm not saying that's the right thing to do but prostitution has been around forever. In fact, the prostitute Rahab was in the lineage of Jesus. 

Involuntarily celebate makes no sense to me unless someone is shackled to a wall with no way to get relief. I'm really trying not to be judgemental but I really don't understand the whole Incel defense (I had to go look that case up). Please help explain other than people are beginning to believe that their own gratification supercedes any harm  that they might cause someone else.

 

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 9:07 PM, Sure rants alot said:

Could some of the men on here explain to me what happened over the years.

 

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QueenOfTheRats
1 hour ago, Dreamsexual said:

 Sure, of course.  But some people get vey depressed and suicidal over their sexual status.  I'm sympathetic.  I pity them.

 

Pity is not legitimisation, and I also made a point of saying it doesn't excuse bad behaviour.

 

Also, mgtow and incels are not the same (in some ways they are the exact opposite - see some of my earlier posts).  And I fall under the mgtow umbrella :)

I don't know, both the incel and mgtow communities seem to be full of bad people. People that literally justify rape, and things of that nature. Seems like an odd cause to champion and empathize with, especially when there is so much genuine life and death suffering in the world. If you are suicidal because you are a virgin, that's really childish, in my opinion. Why not develop some interesting hobbies, or volunteer for a soup kitchen?  Everyone wants something they can't have. It's selfish to put the need for sex on such a pedestal. Lots of people who want sex can't get it, and they still go on to live rich and interesting lives. It's called emotional maturity.

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Howard

@Sure rants alot I can't say I fully understand Incels, but they seem to be jealous of people with an active sex life, jealous to the point that they believ all sort of twisted things. They have slangs to define people with active sex lives and have a skewed view of reality. I'm not sure how it got started, but the very first time I heard of them was on the news, revendicating that the government pays for their prostitutes. I suppose they see themselves as victims because they feel unattractive.

 

@QueenOfTheRats As opposed to Incels, I can see some good people being part of MGTOW. I don't see how choosing not to have a love/sex life when attracted by it makes you bad. My only beef with MGTOW is that on their Youtube videos, they seldom talk about the advantages of not having a love/sex life but rather rant about the negative aspects of having one.

Edited by Howard
Wanted to answer QueenoftheRats
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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 9:35 PM, QueenOfTheRats said:

I don't know, both the incel and mgtow communities seem to be full of bad people

 

 

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 9:57 PM, Howard said:

I suppose they see themselves as victims because they feel unattractive.

 

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Woodworker1968

It's a lose-lose for men such as myself who do their own thing without going on boards, blogs, etc to blame women for all my problems, because I know most of my problems are my own damn fault.

 

But even if a man just keeps to himself and doesn't have any personal involvement with women, somehow that still makes him a heel. That's the situation I'm in.

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QueenOfTheRats
3 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

Agree.  So do most communities, tbh :)

 

I don't champion rape.  I can empathise with anyone.  Even terrible people are humans.

 

Not necessarily.  It's likely because they associate constant female rejection with status and love, so interpret it as no one loves them and they are worthless.  People get suicidal over many things.  I find that pitiable.

 

True.  But some things are more important and deep than others.  Perpetual loneliness, constant bullying, permanent rejection, and absence of love can drive people into very dark places.  As you have seen.  I doubt these incels were born full of rage and hatred. 

 

 

Women don't owe incels sex, regardless of how sad they may be. This is something that needs to be addressed in therapy.

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gisiebob

is it right to hold sympathy for those who opted in to a narrative that washes their hands from the woes that they witness?

 

sure, there are systematic problems, loneliness born from uncertainty in our changing society that told us as children that the torches in place in third grade will burn forever, that we were given a cement world and not told the ways in which it was already rotting

 

I have a life that longs for love that it lacks.

 

but that is a problem I own, it isn't some mystical formula that says I can only lose before I even start, ensuring every chance is failure because in chess and war we play against the other side, let's call it the enemy, some monster that withholds from us victory, no I play chess for the story, a game where you can miss that your opposition is your neighbor, someone you can get to know.

 

I screw myself over, sure. make things harder for myself, let my demons tell me there is not solution where I find someone. but that's me, me and society, masonry made from loneliness because, yes, there are problems. but it isn't some kind of gender based war where we've done nothing wrong and are now getting yelled at so it must be the witchs' fault on the other side of what I promise you is an arbitrary dividing line.

 

would you be able to know, if it looked like you got all the numbers right, if your colleagues backed you up, if you had someone to blame, if you read the question wrong?

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uhtred
10 hours ago, QueenOfTheRats said:

if you cant be happy without sex, you wont be happy with it.

I disagree. In fact I know from personal experience that sex can make that difference.  My wife us usually very low libido, bordering on asexual.  She has a few times though for couple of month intervals become interested in sex. During those times I was *happy*. I felt like I was in love.  The world just seemed a brighter happier place.  

 

For someone who is asexual I can see that it would seem very strange.  Maybe imagine substituting music for sex. Imagine a world where you could NEVER hear music. Wouldn't it make the world just seem a dull sort of grey place?  

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uhtred
12 hours ago, QueenOfTheRats said:

Evolutionary you are right, but that's why we form governments complex societies, etc. Otherwise it would just be survival of the fittest, right? none of us would live past 40. My point is, that as a SOCIETY we should be putting food/shelter as a higher priority than people's desire to have sex whenever they want. Incels have it twisted where they think sex is more important, and to me that shows a lack of perspective. Life does not owe you sex. Period.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that sex is more important that food and shelter.  It might be more important than many other things though. 

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Sage Raven Domino

I wonder why there's still no gender-agnostic version of the MGTOW ideology - 'Humans Going Their Own Ways'. I'm so bad at maintaining relationships and raising children that a marriage with anyone would fail my risk-benefit analysis. There's no blame on any particular gender(s) for that, I just sulk at the entire universe :P

Edited by Sage Raven Domino
grammar
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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 1:20 AM, QueenOfTheRats said:

Women don't owe incels sex, regardless of how sad they may be

 

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 3:56 AM, gisiebob said:

 

I have a life that longs for love that it lacks.

 

 

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Woodworker1968
6 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

Actually, I think technology is largely going to solve this problem anyway.  Sex bots are slowly becoming more mainstream, affordable and life like.  I expect this will, over time, reduce the incel problem.

Until that time, we can kick at incels and snicker at them all we want.

 

After that time comes though, they'll go from having no relationship power to having all the power, by totally ignoring real women.

 

Pray that doesn't happen.

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Dreamsexual
On ‎2‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 3:21 PM, Woodworker1968 said:

Until that time, we can kick at incels and snicker at them all we want.

 

 

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