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MGTOW, Incels, PUA's, & MRA's

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Woodworker1968
On 1/11/2019 at 2:16 PM, Dreamsexual said:

As a MGTOW I think your portrayal is an incorrect and ill-informed stereotype Woodworker.  I suspect you are confusing MGTOW with incel and are not aware of the many variations within the 'manosphere'.  A common mistake :)

 

Perhaps you'd like to discuss this with me with the emotion turned down? :)

I've lurked on their boards for years and read their posts, that's how I know.

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Dreamsexual
48 minutes ago, Woodworker1968 said:

I've lurked on their boards for years and read their posts, that's how I know

Fair enough.

Do you think I fit that stereotype?

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StomachGod
2 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

I'll just say that I fall somewhere under the manosphere/Mgtow umbrella, and that I hope that alone doesn't bother folk too much.

Maybe I am a bit naive about things, but since I have seen you posting a lot around the forums recently, I know you tend to have well reasoned thoughts (even if I don't agree with them) and you also tend to be open to hearing others reasoning and thoughts. You also display a tendency towards empathy and caring about others, and shy away from hateful statements. (I am using "tend" way too much here, I need a better word).
I think that given these properties you display, you are a good and reasonable person, and a credit to those you associate with. 😃 

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Dreamsexual
4 minutes ago, StomachGod said:

I think that given these properties you display, you are a good and reasonable person, and a credit to those you associate with. 

Wow!  Thank you.  I'm not good with compliments, but that's very nice.  :)

 

I can't say I associate with Mgtow folk, I don't really associate with anyone, just watch some stuff on YouTube and take what I think good/true/helpful and ignore the rest.  But I think I have enough in common with at least some of their opinions and behaviours to     warrant saying I fall somewhere under the manosphere/Mgtow umbrella.

 

Of course, I also hold many other shocking, unpopular, contentious opinions on a range of topics (I didn't intend to be contrarian, it just ended up that way - people can't really choose what to believe/disbelieve) - usually plenty to push away even the nicest and most tolerant of folk, so I'm no stranger to being considered a nasty sort of person.  So it's nice to get a compliment like this :).

 

I hope I don't end up reversing your opinion of me if some of my views/beliefs come out sometime.  All I can say in my defence ahead of time is that I try to be as consistent and evidence based as possible, but fully admit to a a whole bag of unconscious predispositions and an average IQ.  And if I am sometimes rude or hyperbolic or obnoxious, I'm probably having a very bad day, forgive me :)

 

Gosh, all that sounded a bit much didn't it, lol :)

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StomachGod
2 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

Wow!  Thank you.  I'm not good with compliments, but that's very nice.  :)

 

I can't say I associate with Mgtow folk, I don't really associate with anyone, just watch some stuff on YouTube and take what I think good/true/helpful and ignore the rest.  But I think I have enough in common with at least some of their opinions and behaviours to     warrant saying I fall somewhere under the manosphere/Mgtow umbrella.

 

Of course, I also hold many other shocking, unpopular, contentious opinions on a range of topics (I didn't intend to be contrarian, it just ended up that way - people can't really choose what to believe/disbelieve) - usually plenty to push away even the nicest and most tolerant of folk, so I'm no stranger to being considered a nasty sort of person.  So it's nice to get a compliment like this :).

 

I hope I don't end up reversing your opinion of me if some of my views/beliefs come out sometime.  All I can say in my defence ahead of time is that I try to be as consistent and evidence based as possible, but fully admit to a a whole bag of unconscious predispositions and an average IQ.  And if I am sometimes rude or hyperbolic or obnoxious, I'm probably having a very bad day, forgive me :)

 

Gosh, all that sounded a bit much didn't it, lol :)

I understand, I hope should such views come up we will be able to communicate on our differing opinions and reach a point of understand (just understand, not agreement). I have a number of friends who have very different opinions than I do, but I think it is a good thing because different beliefs generate different points of view. And there is value in that. 
Sorry for hijacking the thread btw. It just seemed appropriate.

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Karret

MGTOWs seem like the male version of women who hate anything to do with men and try to avoid them at all cost, including becoming political lesbians or whatever, but just can't stop talking about how much they hate men.

Incels are like the same thing as MGTOWs [to me]

idk what PUA is about, never heard that term.

MRAs, some seem like they genuinely care about problems men have in society. They bring up some points that I think are reasonable, but at the same time, just like feminists, some MRAs can get carried away and get cranky about women, flirting with MGTOW territory.

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Dreamsexual
13 hours ago, Karret said:

 

Incels are like the same thing as MGTOWs [to me]

That seems demonstrably untrue, IMHO.

 

For a start, incels actually want sex with women, but are 'forced' to remain celibate because they are consistently rejected.  Whereas Mgtow either choose simply to only have casual sexual/romantic relationships or choose to leave the dating and sex scene altogether.  That's a huge psychological and ideological difference - incels are still seeking external female validation, whereas mgtows have opted out the whole of external female validation and gain their sense of identity entirely internally.

 

PUAs are pick-up-artists.  They are focussed on giving women what they think women want in order to maximise their sexual activities.  In other words, they are psychologically similar to incels (obsessed with sex and external female validation), but are they the mirror reverse in action, behaviour and result.  They see themselves as the true alphas, whereas incels consider themselves the true zetas.  Both see women primarily as sexual objects, and obsess over getting laid, but PUAs have self esteem and succeed, whereas incels have self-loathing and consistently fail.

 

MRAs are usually egalitarians who wish to see the excesses of feminism and gynocentric cultural practices curtailed and a rebalancing of institutional gender power structures.  Their goals might well be shared by many within the manosphere, including some traditionalists, politically minded mgtows, and even incels and PUAs.  Generally, the big difference is that traditionalists and MRAs actually think they have a genuine chance at changing society, whereas mgtows have either given up and just made a personal choice to ignore it all, or they think that the political/social solutions are beyond egalitarianism and lie in soft patriarchy (a view shared by some traditionalists).

 

I hope that helps :)  And of course, I'm only speaking from my own understanding, other manosphere folk might think I've got it wrong.

 

 

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gisiebob

dude you sure are putting in a lot of work. do you think if you didn't inform us so valiantly that your point of argument would erode rapidly? maybe you should let yourself hear some thoughts that aren't arguing for apology.

 

you're standing before the dicks of this generation, who say it's not fair that they have to be questioned for the faults of the past that've proved to perpetuate themselves and last; these chicks walking home at night who feel they are in danger, why won't don't they accept their knight in shining armor?

 

ya'all are feeling oppressed from the extrication of oppression. like the equation is one sided in any handshake across genders because for once in a culture the other side says 'no, you get up and walk over here to sign these papers'

 

you want kinder prenups, you want fairer devorce court? all these things we made so they would shut up. we tied any noose you fear, dude. we were the pilots; if it's anyone's, it is our fault they learned to steer.

 

yer just a pack of sad dogs. begging fer cake that's already eaten.

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Dreamsexual
39 minutes ago, gisiebob said:

dude

Are you talking to me, lol :)

 

I'm not sure I followed the rest of your post.  :(  

 

What is it you wanted to say to me?  Can you say it in a way I can understand better, I'm not super-sharp, and I'm not sure what you're saying?  Apologies.

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StomachGod

@Dreamsexual After reading it several times I cannot figure out what is being said either...

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Chimeric
On 1/17/2019 at 11:34 AM, Dreamsexual said:

Oh yes.  You should check it out online. I think you'll be truly moved by it.  It's realllllly good :)

 

I actually really like it, up until the point it says "some men." In my experience, most men are good people, and I'm really tired of society selling that point short. I can't ever say this from personal experience, but I would imagine it's incredibly frustrating being a man growing up in today's society.

 

On 1/17/2019 at 1:03 PM, Charna said:

According to WHO about 20% of women living in this society experience sexual violence (and about 30% worldwide). That is literally millions. If you don't mean actual victims, if you don't mean those millions, then whom exactly do you mean when you say: " If we keep telling young women that men are a threat" then? Yourself?

 

No - I mean the other 80%.

 

I'm not trying to say the 20% who experience sexual violence should be told that their experiences are/were inconsequential, because they aren't. I'm just saying that by telling everyone else that they're either a victim or a perpetrator is not the way to go about fixing this situation, that's it. What happened to you is horrendous, and never should have happened to begin with, and I am sincerely sorry that it did.. Also we need to fix the message we're sending to the masses. These are almost unrelated things, you seem really upset by it so I'm sorry if I'm communicating this poorly... I'm not trying to say that you aren't a victim or that that some how should have happened to you because I would never say that. I don't think that at all. There are broken things in society that need to be addressed. But I adamantly disagree with the way these things are currently being addressed, that's all.

 

On 1/17/2019 at 4:49 PM, StomachGod said:

Maybe I am a bit naive about things, but since I have seen you posting a lot around the forums recently, I know you tend to have well reasoned thoughts (even if I don't agree with them) and you also tend to be open to hearing others reasoning and thoughts. You also display a tendency towards empathy and caring about others, and shy away from hateful statements. (I am using "tend" way too much here, I need a better word).
I think that given these properties you display, you are a good and reasonable person, and a credit to those you associate with. 😃 

I need to celebrate this, because regardless of who we are and what we believe, the fact that people with differing viewpoints can sit down and learn from each other (even if they don't necessarily agree) deserves so much cake. :cake::cake::cake::cake::cake::cake::cake::cake::cake::cake::cake:

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

Just jumping in to say that all also cannot make sense from what @gisiebob is saying. Could you maybe refrain your statements so we can understand them better? Maybe we could give responses that might help change your opinions but currently it's too hard to understand what you said :c 

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gisiebob
53 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

Just jumping in to say that all also cannot make sense from what @gisiebob is saying. Could you maybe refrain your statements so we can understand them better? Maybe we could give responses that might help change your opinions but currently it's too hard to understand what you said :c 

if no one had said I could not be understood than would I be understood? I'd much rather make it a challenge. call it a mockery of others who think obviously this is the way it must be. I am just as understandable, I promise you.

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StomachGod
3 hours ago, gisiebob said:

if no one had said I could not be understood than would I be understood? I'd much rather make it a challenge. call it a mockery of others who think obviously this is the way it must be. I am just as understandable, I promise you.

Excuse me good Sir, but I believe we are not saying that your point of view is not understandable, but we simply cannot understand what point you are trying to make. If you could rephrase your message in a clearer fashion then perhaps we might actually understand what it is you are talking about. Only then can we debate your point of view and if it is understandable or not. 
I hope you will prove to us that you really ARE understandable. Thank you ~

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gisiebob
5 hours ago, Chimeric said:

No - I mean the other 80%.

 

I'm not trying to say the 20% who experience sexual violence should be told that their experiences are/were inconsequential, because they aren't. I'm just saying that by telling everyone else that they're either a victim or a perpetrator is not the way to go about fixing this situation, that's it. What happened to you is horrendous, and never should have happened to begin with, and I am sincerely sorry that it did.. Also we need to fix the message we're sending to the masses. These are almost unrelated things, you seem really upset by it so I'm sorry if I'm communicating this poorly... I'm not trying to say that you aren't a victim or that that some how should have happened to you because I would never say that. I don't think that at all. There are broken things in society that need to be addressed. But I adamantly disagree with the way these things are currently being addressed, that's all. 

twenty percent is one in five. how would uou feel if you were grouped with four of your peers and told that the unfortunate truth is one of youis going to be wounded im a way that you don't feel is ok to show society your scars?

 

and yeah after this grand lottery, you pulled a safe straw, now the four of you, we won't talk about the other who was with you, meet an new stranger and five more straws to be allotted because you are sentenced for life to this wager.

 

I thank the gods for how safely I am allowed to hate my own gender.

 

one in five. count it out for the next few people you see. how many folk you just walk by in a day does that make it, how many folk that are personal to you, that you had thought you had sworn to protect?

naw, it's far too late to say lol just kidding.

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Charna
7 hours ago, Chimeric said:

 

 

I'm not trying to say the 20% who experience sexual violence should be told that their experiences are/were inconsequential, because they aren't. I'm just saying that by telling everyone else that they're either a victim or a perpetrator is not the way to go about fixing this situation, that's it. What happened to you is horrendous, and never should have happened to begin with, and I am sincerely sorry that it did.. Also we need to fix the message we're sending to the masses. These are almost unrelated things, you seem really upset by it so I'm sorry if I'm communicating this poorly... I'm not trying to say that you aren't a victim or that that some how should have happened to you because I would never say that. I don't think that at all. There are broken things in society that need to be addressed. But I adamantly disagree with the way these things are currently being addressed, that's all.

And I adamantly disagree with the way you are adressing them. It's not a message that I want to be part of.

 

We should be able to have this discussion without telling men they are animals and without telling women they are being coddled. 

 

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Dreamsexual

 

9 hours ago, Chimeric said:

I'm just saying that by telling everyone else that they're either a victim or a perpetrator is not the way to go about fixing this situation, that's it.

1 hour ago, Charna said:

We should be able to have this discussion without telling men they are animals and without telling women they are being coddled.

Aren't the above statements roughly equivalent?  

Maybe you two agree on things more than you suppose.  Maybe.  It could just be the usual story of the Internet making communication difficult, or maybe chimeric used a word ('coddled') which was poorly chosen, or something.  I'm not sure that there's a disagreement over the substance here, just a disagreement of phrasing. 

 

I also admit that the 20% figure is extremely shocking.  Is this article addressing that statistic, or have I got the wrong one:

http://behavioralscientist.org/what-the-origins-of-the-1-in-5-statistic-teaches-us-about-sexual-assault-policy/

 

edit:

Another 1 in 5 statistic:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/sexual-assault-women-one-five-rape-harassment-figures-report-a8201476.html

 

A 1in 4 statistic:

https://www.safeline.org.uk/what-we-do/women/?gclid=CjwKCAiA1ZDiBRAXEiwAIWyNCwZ9agSvgAH4norPs-ujAlLfqDEnRa-rXuM195zCxkCqN6uJ5q9XwhoCy5sQAvD_BwE

 

further edit:

It seems to me after a quick internet search that there's multiple 1 in 5 (or similar) stats concerning sexual assault of women, whether global/national/ or location specific (campus).  The consistency of the number is itself shocking.  But I also see that these stats are sometimes contested (by academic feminists no less!), and so I really don't know exactly what to make of them without further study.

 

Given it is an intersting,emotive, difficult and contentious topic, might it be worth setting up a separate thread for people to dive into the stats and see exactly what they find?  

 

I admit I'm shocked and curious as to the details here, and want to find out more (I'm also interested in the critiques).  I'm not sure exactly how a discussion on statistics fits in with a thread on Mgtow, and so tentatively suggested it might be handled better elsewhere.

 

ps: stomachGod, I notice you liked this post prior to my edits, if you want to retract it now I've added stuff, that's cool :)

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Charna

@Dreamsexual

It's the statistics from WHO (World Health Organization) site.

 

And no, the statements above aren't roughly equivalent. If you tell a young woman she is living in a culture of coddling, that she doesn't know how to differentiate between an undesirable situation and a dangerous one, that she can wear what she wants, acts how she wants, say what she wants etc. there is a one in five chance you are talking to someone who has been sexually assaulted. That you tack on an " everyone else " as an afterthought is yet another variaton of " With all due respect and sympathy to your situation, I am not referring in my posts to actual victims." You know what? Sympathy and empathy are not the same thing.

 

When I say we shouldn't tell women they are being coddled, I mean all women. We should not expect women to come forth about their own experiences in order to rationalize how we treat them. Or do you expect a woman to explain to you how she has been harassed on the street for wearing a short dress, before you let go of the "you can wear what you want" statement?

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Dreamsexual
22 minutes ago, Charna said:

It's the statistics from WHO (World Health Organization) site.

Thanks for that :)

 

Do you want to start a separate thread where we can delve into the stats?  

 

Again, I find them truly shocking (and good support for my belief that arming citizens is probably a good idea) and would like to explore them more.  It is an important thing to be aware of.  My wife suspects the figure might be higher than 1 in 5, depending upon exactly how sexual assault is defined, and depending upon location.  It intrigues me that the figure seems to be same whether we're talking about three years spent on an American university campus or worldwide for all women.  It might also be an interesting idea to talk about possible solutions to the problem.  It disturbs me that so many women are so often victims of sexual assault.

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Charna

@Dreamsexual

I'm not sure I'd be up to the task. It'd be difficult not to get emotional about this topic for me, whereas statistics is something you need to be able to analyze with a critical eye. 

 

I do agree with your wife here. It's possible that the first time I was attacked the guy wanted to physically harm me but without a sexual intent. The second time was clearly a sexual attack, as the guy came from behind and pushed his hand between my legs. But in either case, I suffered no actual physical harm. I was also felt up a few times in public transport, but I haven't been counting that. So it all depends on what criteria you use for gathering data. Also keep in mind that most of sexual violence is actually committed by intimate partners, not strangers. And that makes it very difficult for victims to report it, because the prevalent attitude is that "why didn't she leave after the first time". 

 

Now all of that applies to male victims too. It's a sad state of affairs that the one thing we can say is same for women and men in our society, is the lack of empathy we show to victims of sexual assault.

 

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Tercy

I imagine at least part of the reason there's this idea that women are "coddled" is that there's so much pro-female sentiment in the media/academia/government, so many organisations that exclusively benefit females and so much funding for things that exclusively affect females. Meanwhile, men's issues are not only largely overlooked, but often actively derided and/or the people trying to address those issues are mocked/attacked.

 

A good example is something that has always puzzled me when people bring it up or it gets used as a plot point in TV shows: This idea that women are constantly on their guard and go through life as though they might be attacked at any minute, but men just walk around feeling totally safe? There was that list that was being circulated a while ago, of things this woman does every day to stay safe - and everyone was like, "See, men? See what we have to go through?" Men do most of those things too. Men too will be cautious when alone in dodgy places and/or around groups of people.

 

I think there's an attitude here that women are the only ones at risk because only women would be seen as easy targets and the only threat of violence is based on rape. Nonsense. If anything, it's significantly more common for people (usually men) to go looking for trouble either to vent their frustration, "prove themselves" or whatever else - and those people are plenty if not more likely to attack men, not women. As for easy targets, anyone can be seen as an easy target when the aggressors are a group of people - and there's plenty of small/timid men to pick on.

 

And this doesn't address the assumption that all aggression is physical and that all aggressors are male.

 

... I could go on, but you get the idea. Despite the fact that both men and women feel fear and face danger, all we ever hear about in the media is how bad women have it - and this applies to other areas where either men are also disadvantaged or men are disadvantaged in other ways that women aren't. But all the media and feminism seems to care about is women.

 

Here we can circle back to the Gillette ad. This is why I disliked it; it's a continuation of this same trend/ideology/whatever.

 

Also, I'd happily get on board with this idea of "men policing other men" if this were just a universal standard that applies to everyone, but the fact that this message is even being put out there says one of two things: either the brains behind the ad feel like this is exclusively a man's problem and a man's responsibility to fix it - or men aren't already doing a good enough job. That last one is enforced by the mention in the ad that only "some" men are doing this - suggesting most men are... enablers at best and aggressors at worst? And you wonder why men are taking issue with it? :P

 

As for the OP: I can somewhat understand the red pill and MGTOW perspectives, but the more extreme characters and ideology puts me off making any sort of investment. My typical internal commentary as I'm reading a post on a red pill or MGTOW blog/reddit/whatever is, "Yeah I'm with you so far... yeah I'm with you so far... aaand now you're talking bollocks." Like the subculture in TRP of taking the whole alpha/beta thing way waaaayyy too seriously. Or how every Return of Kings article basically boils down to, "RARRRR WE'RE PRIMATES! YEAH! EAT SOME MEAT, GET BUFF AND BE A REAL MAN!!! YARRRRRRRR!!!!!" Ugh.

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Dreamsexual
3 hours ago, Tercy said:

 

As for the OP: I can somewhat understand the red pill and MGTOW perspectives, but the more extreme characters and ideology puts me off making any sort of investment

I can certainly sympathise with that :)

 

Though I think that critique applies to pretty much every ideology/group.  Many might say the exact same thing of Feminism, Christianity, Liberalism, Socialism, New Atheism, and most other paradigms you could name.  

 

If the extremes define the whole then no one could say that they belonged to any group, and that makes communication and awareness difficult, IMHO.  We use group/ideological labels to avoid the laborious task of re-defining terms and positions down to the nth degree for each separate individual.  And whilst everything always has to boil down to individual difference and nuance eventually, it saves a hell of a lot of time and misunderstanding to at least start out with roughly accurate broad labels.  

 

Hence why I'm willing to self-identify as falling under the Mgtow umbrella (and the asexual umbrella, and Christian umbrella), even though I, of course, I do not subscribe to every possible Mgtow position (see my second post on this thread).

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Charna

@Tercy

No, I'm not surprised that a razor ad gets such public outrage. Just like I'm not surprised that whenever people talk about media and the portrayal of women and men, no one mentions the big red elephant in the room: porn. The porn industry is by far the biggest proponent of showing women as victims and men as agressors. Quite explicitly, in fact. 

 

 

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Dreamsexual
30 minutes ago, Charna said:

Just like I'm not surprised that whenever people talk about media and the portrayal of women and men, no one mentions the big red elephant in the room: porn.

To be fair, I hear porn crop up quite a lot in such discussions. 

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Charna
58 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

To be fair, I hear porn crop up quite a lot in such discussions. 

Well, yeah, I brought it up. :P

 

On a more serious note: the porn industry is not a charity; if they are making violent videos, it's because they profit from them. No one minds talking about the Gilette ad, because admitting you buy razors is not a controversial thing to do, and so - as you've aptly put it - it's far less risky to focus on. But while some people will admit they enjoy violent porn, it's not something many will do in public, while waiving their anonymity. We know that there is an elephant in the room, but ask someone if they have personally seen it, and how many will tell you the truth?

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Dreamsexual

Not so many, I guess.  I've seen violent porn.  It's not really my bag.  Nor any porn, tbh.  I find it sleazy and quite dehumanising to those involved.  Still watch some porn as a masterbatory aid, but don't really enjoy it much.  But as a libertarian I wouldn't want politcal control over it, rather I'd just prefer people made better choices.

 

I think most males under 30 would admit to having seen all kinds of things, like violent porn (and worse).  Quite a few women under 30 too, in my limited experience.  At least to their friendship group, or with people they trust to not be judgemental.  Over 30, not such much, I expect.  Big differences between the pre- and post- Internet generations, IMHO.

 

I'm not quite sure what connection is being drawn here between violent porn, sexist/racist mainstream shaving adverts, and Mgtow?  At this point I'm a little lost? :)

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Tercy

@Charna I too am curious what point you're trying to make by bringing up porn?

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Charna
2 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

Not so many, I guess.  I've seen violent porn.  It's not really my bag.  Nor any porn, tbh.  I find it sleazy and quite dehumanising to those involved.  Still watch some porn as a masterbatory aid, but don't really enjoy it much.  But as a libertarian I wouldn't want politcal control over it, rather I'd just prefer people made better choices.

 

I think most males under 30 would admit to having seen all kinds of things, like violent porn (and worse).  Quite a few women under 30 too, in my limited experience.  At least to their friendship group, or with people they trust to not be judgemental.  Over 30, not such much, I expect.  Big differences between the pre- and post- Internet generations, IMHO.

 

I'm not quite sure what connection is being drawn here between violent porn, sexist/racist mainstream shaving adverts, and Mgtow?  At this point I'm a little lost? :)

Under 30 is a wide estimate, I think nowadays, thanks to the easy access on the internet, most teenagers or even underage children are looking at porn. I don't think you can skirt around this issue if you want to discuss the portrayal of women as victims and men as agressors in the media, especially if you take into account just how early this exposure starts. Sexual violence isn't always portrayed in a negative light, it is also portrayed as titillating entertainment, and while porn is the major source, it's not the only one. With a few clicks on the phone, a teenager can find an entire industry who'll turn the violence into a sexual fantasy instead. You can find games where you roleplay as a "hero" who goes around assaulting women. (I found out about it by browsing some gaming forum. Let's just say I keep to a few chosen sites now.)

 

It doesn't surprise me that young women are feeling more threatened now, then in my generation. Not when you can find guys posting instructional videos on how to get around when she said no, posting let's plays of rape games, talking openly on forums how they are okay with committing sexual assault. Not when you can get so easily threatened with sexual violence due to the anonymity the internet provides.

 

The above is also the reason why I avoid discussions on places like yt; I just don't have the resilience to deal with this. I really apprecate being well over thirty nowadays; there were a few porn magazines passed around secretly at my school, but frankly, they were pretty tame compared to what you can run into just by turning the filters off when googling.

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Dreamsexual
1 minute ago, Charna said:

I don't think you can skirt around this issue if you want to discuss the portrayal of women as victims and men as agressors in the media,

I agree.  I don't think anyone does skirt around this issue, though. :)

 

2 minutes ago, Charna said:

You can find games where you roleplay as a "hero" who goes around assaulting women.

And much, much worse.  Indeed, many mainstream triple A games, like RDR2 and GTO will allow you assault women (and men ) if you want to.

 

4 minutes ago, Charna said:

Take off the filters when googling, and you can run into some very nasty images very easily.

Of course.

 

5 minutes ago, Charna said:

It doesn't surprise me that young women are feeling more threatened now, then in my generation.

Ah, well, this is where I think a leap might occur.  There might well be a disconnect between violent crime rates, real threat of harm, and perceived threat of harm.  This is also not a gender specific issue.  This would require a lot of detailed investigation to tease out, I expect - it's a complex, multi-variable topic.  But I'm not sure the connection here to Mgtow?

 

7 minutes ago, Charna said:

The above is also the reason why I avoid discussions on places like yt; I just don't have the resilience to deal with this.

I can appreciate and understand this.  But you've managed very well on here, maybe you feel reasonably safe talking about these things on this site?  

 

This site strikes me as a pretty tolerant, safe, and open space to talk about even hard and emotionally difficult topics like this, and I hope you've felt OK raising these points with me on here so far.  I appreciate these talks can be difficult, especially given your personal background, but I think you've contributed to the discussion in a measured and interesting way, so thanks for that.  There's no shame in just agreeing to disagree, or leaving a thread after stating your piece, if you ever feel you've had enough :)

 

I'm still unsure exactly what connection is being drawn between porn, violent computer games, the Gillette advert, and Mgtow, but it's cool if you want to leave it there. :)

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

 

 

9 hours ago, Tercy said:

I think there's an attitude here that women are the only ones at risk because only women would be seen as easy targets and the only threat of violence is based on rape. Nonsense. If anything, it's significantly more common for people (usually men) to go looking for trouble either to vent their frustration, "prove themselves" or whatever else - and those people are plenty if not more likely to attack men, not women. As for easy targets, anyone can be seen as an easy target when the aggressors are a group of people - and there's plenty of small/timid men to pick on.

There's still no denying the fact that women are overwhelmingly the victims of sexual attacks and sexual violence and that the perpetrators of such attacks are almost always male. Yes men are at risk from other forms of violence (anyone is really) but when talking specifically of sexual violence it does undermine the issue to say 'men are at risk too!'. Yes, of course men are at risk of violence as well, but there is an issue of 'generally accepted' sexual violence against women that somehow just continues, and continues, with no end in sight.

 

I consider myself more on the MRA side of this discussion in general, to be clear (we as a society need to work on preventing all kinds of violence against all genders, not just sexual violence), but I still believe in looking at it rationally and not trying to undermine what women do actually have to go through on a daily basis just to walk around outside or whatever, to protect ourselves from the (often quite scary) sexual advances of random men. Or even on this website, having vile sexual stuff sent to us by sexual men suggesting the types of stuff they want to do to our bodies. There is just something so.. wrong.. about someone vocally suggesting the types of sexual things they want to do to you (whether in a random PM or out on the street) and the attitude that just because you're a woman, or maybe you were dressed nicely, or maybe you mentioned the types of activity you enjoy as a general passing comment, or maybe you have rather large breasts, that means suddenly that person has permission to say 'oh yes well by the way I want my dick inside you' or whatever. It's disgusting and violating and it's just something that as a female, I have to live with - knowing that kind of thing could come at me at any time regardless of what I do (even on a website like this, let alone in a park or on the street where there aren't mods around to tell the guy to back off). I did a massive amount of research on this particular topic for a thread here a couple of years ago, found all the stats of sexual violence against men and women, and the stats for the genders of perpetrators against both genders. It's not a pretty picture but I could find the stats etc again and share here if anyone wanted to see them, it would just take me a while to search through the forums to find where I posted the research.

 

I am utterly against painting 'men as a whole' as the issue, to be clear, and also against the idea that is oft perpetuated that men aren't at risk from other forms of violence (or, more accurately that their risk is ignored or even denied because it is and that's terrible as well!). But I am just as strongly against denying that there is an issue in society as a whole of sexual violence against women specifically, or trying to undermine it by saying 'men experience that  kind of thing too' (because they just don't, not when it comes to the sexual stuff a woman has to deal with just for leaving her house, just for existing really). People denying its existence only exasperates the problem.

 

 

 

 

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