Galactic Turtle

MGTOW, Incels, PUA's, & MRA's

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The Dryad
20 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

Thanks for the further details, Dryad.  :).  I can't say I really understand everything you're saying, and I suspect we're coming from quite different perspectives, but I appreciate the effort to help me understand your POV. :)

 

One thing in your post really caught my attention:

To be clear, you're saying that men now find it easier to live without wives/female partners because of the gender power struggle, yes?  That sounds very much like a Mgtow statement! :)  Many Mgtow make statements roughly equivalent to 'it's easier to live alone than with a woman,' and you seem here to be agreeing with them.

 

Do you see this inability of men and women to live peacefully together as a negative thing?  Why?

Do you see it likely changing in the future?  Into what?

I don't necessarily see men and women not living together as a negative or a positive, and I don't see it as productive either, that's similar to sentiments of black people or white people who think they can't get along- that's not true at all and most people are more similar than they know, politics are just extremely divisive and a lot of politics are rooted in things that have no business in this century.

 

I don't necessarily see much of anything changing in the future, except more vocalization of men's rights, which could potentially be a good thing...

 

Because this world we've inherited is a product that echoes politics of the past, I would hope that equality becomes more of an accessible thing, I believe that's another reason men's groups like this exist.

 

I think we have different perspectives because I don't see (most) issues as separate from another issue, but I see them all connected in some form or fashion stemming from elsewhere.

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Romanca

Personally I'm in agreeance and disagreeance with some elements of the "men's movement" 

 

Some of what they say holds real merit and if the writer / you tuber sticks to the facts and doesn't get bogged down in women hating (no matter how cleverly it's hidden) and bitterness then I'm a-ok with it and in agreement with some of what they say. 

 

My pet peeve is how some of the writers / Youtubers and a sizeable percentage of the comnenters have a bitterness or some level of woman hating outright on display. 

 

Having been a feminist (and given up on it) I am wary of some of what feminists can do and say and I think to some element the "men's movement" is a late arriving counter balance to feminism, albeit its a younger movement and its still finding its feet and sometimes it shows. 

 

Final conclusion: learn to ditch the bitterness and do what ya need to do

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Jusey1
5 hours ago, The Dryad said:

.... that's like saying European imperalism didn't effectively take over the world with it's ideas of white superiority...

But it didn't... Whites only really makes up mostly North America and Europe. That's it. Whites don't control that much of the world actually. We have two parts of the world. Africa is still mostly Africans. China is still mostly Chinese. Japan is still mostly Japanese. Russia is still mostly Russians, and I can keep going on and on.

 

Whites do not own much of the world and there isn't any massive white superiority bullshit. It doesn't exists. Sure, there are some levels of racial superiority beliefs in people but they are fairly easily shut down pretty quickly or are forced into hiding it just to stay in some form of power.

 

"Yes it's true that our society is ruled by money...but who holds the majority of that money?"

 

The world powers and leaders of each country, which is specific to that country's origins. For example, obviously America is gonna have a lot more rich white people in power because AMERICA itself was built by white people that invaded this land and took it from the Native Americans (which is sadly a natural part of progression when one group is looking to move out to new land, at least back in the day. We gave up that kind of crap long time ago). The European Countries also have white people mostly in power because they are all different white races (Italian, French, Irish, etc).

Here's the thing. That's OKAY. There's nothing wrong with that fact because these countries are the origins of those specific race. If I lived in Ireland, I would prefer to have Irish leaders because I want to keep my country and culture protected and safe. A country and it's core culture does not need to change or be twisted to suit other countries' needs, simply because that is flat-out wrong. The only exception to this rule is if a country has built a culture and system that is very toxic and harmful to itself and perhaps other countries (such as the problems in the Middle-Eastern and their highly toxic anti-women culture). America and the European countries as a whole is not like this and there is no need to change anything too massively.

And if we do change these countries, force them to become this melting pot of races and cultures... Then why not do it to other countries? Let's force some white people over to Africa, India, China, Japan, and so on. Let's mix the European blood all over the world so everything becomes Neutral in a sense and all of the old original cultures and history are gone for good so we live in this grey bland world where everyone is the same person with the same mindset...

Which to me sounds like a bad idea. I rather we help other countries improve and improve the world as a whole so people aren't needed to come live in America, Canada, or some sort of European country to get away from the troubles of their home... Make the whole world a better place and welcoming to all while also respecting everyone's culture and origins.

 

Went a bit off-topic there but it does explain the reasoning behind stuff like MRA being a thing, as what the male role does is part of culture itself.

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Dreamsexual
7 hours ago, The Dryad said:

I don't necessarily see men and women not living together as a negative or a positive, and I don't see it as productive either,

Thanks again for the continued thoughtful posts :)

 

Ok, so if men chose not to live with women because they find it too difficult in the current climate, you don't see this as a negative thing, and I guess would therefore support their right to choose that lifestyle.  That's cool :)  Though surely men not doing what would make them miserable is a positive, albeit a small one?

 

I'm a little confused as to how something can be both non-productive yet not negative, but I think I get where you're coming from.  I think you mean that this gender segregation isn't productive for moving society forward, have I got that right?  If so, I'm interested as to why you think this?  

 

I personally doubt that a small number of men choosing 'to go their own way' and not cohabit with women will all that much effect upon wider society.  Even if taken to the crazy extreme of every man choosing to not cohabit with women, I'm not exactly sure what negative societal effect you think likely to happen (I could speculate, but I'd rather know your thoughts for sure).

 

7 hours ago, The Dryad said:

I don't necessarily see much of anything changing in the future, except more vocalization of men's rights, which could potentially be a good thing...

We agree here :)

 

7 hours ago, The Dryad said:

that's similar to sentiments of black people or white people who think they can't get along- that's not true at all

This is probably the point that most caught my eye.  This seems to imply that you think men saying they can't get along with women (and thus choosing celibacy) are factually incorrect - that they, could, in fact have a happy marriage with a women but they just don't know it/believe it.  

 

That strikes me as somewhat presumptuous, to be honest.  I don't want to be rude, but are you really saying that you know better than these men about the state of their own mind and their ability to live happily with a woman? :) For example, I'm a man who doesn't think he can live happily with a woman - am I deluded, lol? :). (You can say yes if you want, it might be true!)

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Dreamsexual
7 hours ago, Romanca said:

learn to ditch the bitterness and do what ya need to do

I totally agree, Romanca! :). I agree with pretty much the whole of your post, in fact. :)

 

The only thing I'd add is:

 

I'm willing (perhaps more than most) to cut these guys some slack about the bitterness ('red pill rage') since I understand that it's coming from a place of personal hurt, and most often arising from their own experiences of bad treatment, toxic relationships, legal injustice, and the such like.  My own experiences have been highly negative (turning me into an asexual of some sort) and so I understand their anger and resentment.  But you're right that this is not something that can be supported, even if it can be sympathised with.  It would be better if they could move beyond their anger at their own trauma (though anger at social injustices is a good thing!)

 

I'm also curious about something.  I agree that woman hating is bad, but do you see this in terms of expression/attitude or in actual opinions?  Are there specific Mgtow opinions which you think are hateful no matter how, or with what attitude, they are expressed?

 

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Romanca
2 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

I totally agree, Romanca! :). I agree with pretty much the whole of your post, in fact. :)

 

The only thing I'd add is:

 

I'm willing (perhaps more than most) to cut these guys some slack about the bitterness ('red pill rage') since I understand that it's coming from a place of personal hurt, and most often arising from their own experiences of bad treatment, toxic relationships, legal injustice, and the such like.  My own experiences have been highly negative (turning me into an asexual of some sort) and so I understand their anger and resentment.  But you're right that this is not something that can be supported, even if it can be sympathised with.  It would be better if they could move beyond their anger at their own trauma (though anger at social injustices is a good thing!)

 

I'm also curious about something.  I agree that woman hating is bad, but do you see this in terms of expression/attitude or in actual opinions?  Are there specific Mgtow opinions which you think are hateful no matter how, or with what attitude, they are expressed?

 

I think the whole obsession with riding the (male parts) carousel gets over used. Sure on one level I get where they're coming from. 

 

I find a lot of it is snarkyness in tone. Whether woman hating is the right words for this or bitterness is, will be another debate. 

 

My 2 preferred YouTube men's rights people are Paul Elam and huMAN. These get they're messages out there while leaving red pill rage, bitterness and other negativities out the picture. If anyone has in interest in level headed men's rights content then these two are for you 

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Dreamsexual
33 minutes ago, Romanca said:

I think the whole obsession with riding the (male parts) carousel gets over used. Sure on one level I get where they're coming from. 

 

I find a lot of it is snarkyness in tone. Whether woman hating is the right words for this or bitterness is, will be another debate. 

 

My 2 preferred YouTube men's rights people are Paul Elam and huMAN. These get they're messages out there while leaving red pill rage, bitterness and other negativities out the picture. If anyone has in interest in level headed men's rights content then these two are for you 

Totally agree :). And yes, I like huMAN and think he's got the right approach :)

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gisiebob
3 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

That strikes me as somewhat presumptuous, to be honest.  I don't want to be rude, but are you really saying that you know better than these men about the state of their own mind and their ability to live happily with a woman? :) For example, I'm a man who doesn't think he can live happily with a woman - am I deluded, lol? :). (You can say yes if you want, it might be true!)

yet you've said you had a wife. 

your delusion is sucking up our oxygen.

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Tercy

(Ignore this one; I did find him. Either YT or my browser sent me to the wrong place somehow.)

Edited by Tercy
I'm a yoghurt.
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Dreamsexual
3 minutes ago, gisiebob said:

yet you've said you had a wife. 

your delusion is sucking up our oxygen.

Oh wow, I wasn't ready for an attack on my family arrangements :). That came out of nowhere ...

 

Can you explain how you think my being married somehow makes me delusional?

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gisiebob

two different ithoughts, you tied them together.

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Dreamsexual
29 minutes ago, gisiebob said:

 

two different ithoughts, you tied them together

 

Seriously, lol :). Ok.

 

What do you mean by, 'yet ..'?  What has my marital status got to do with anything I've previously said?

 

And what is my delusion that sucks up your oxygen?  

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Skycaptain

Everyone, time to quit with the name-calling please. Skycaptain moderator PPS 

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Dreamsexual
4 minutes ago, Skycaptain said:

Everyone

Everyone?  Actually, I'm not sure anyone had called anyone a name?  Confused?

Edited by Dreamsexual

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Skycaptain

So as not to single out individuals, its a general term 

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Dreamsexual

Fair enough.

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The Dryad
10 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

This is probably the point that most caught my eye.  This seems to imply that you think men saying they can't get along with women (and thus choosing celibacy) are factually incorrect - that they, could, in fact have a happy marriage with a women but they just don't know it/believe it.  

 

That strikes me as somewhat presumptuous, to be honest.  I don't want to be rude, but are you really saying that you know better than these men about the state of their own mind and their ability to live happily with a woman? :) For example, I'm a man who doesn't think he can live happily with a woman - am I deluded, lol? :). (You can say yes if you want, it might be true!)

I don't see how that's presumptuous considering I was making the point that people can live together as neighbors, and have a healthy communal relationship, in no way did I mean marriage, especially considering an asexual standpoint...

 

I'm not going to explain why I think the way I do, simply for the reason that I will take way too long to breakdown privilege and even victim privilege, and giving examples of that privilege (especially between socio-economic and racial lines, plus the historical facts) and how that correlates to all social justice warrior movements right now, including men's groups and even how white privilege ties into that.

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Dreamsexual
9 minutes ago, The Dryad said:

in no way did I mean marriage,

Ah, my confusion then.  Apologies :)

 

10 minutes ago, The Dryad said:

 

I'm not going to explain why I think the way I do, simply for the reason that I will take way too long to breakdown privilege and even victim privilege,

No worries, totally understand :)

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