Galactic Turtle

MGTOW, Incels, PUA's, & MRA's

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Chimeric

I wish @CaptainYesterday was still around, he'd have a lot to contribute to this conversation.

 

I think a lot of these male-oriented countercultures are a direct result of the feminist movement. There have been a lot of societal changes very quickly (this is merely an observation, I'm not saying it is a bad thing - for the most part, I think it's a very good thing), but it's left women and men alike unsure of how to interact with each other. Women are told they are both powerful and victims (and how, exactly, does one make sense of such a conflicting message), and men are told they're predators.

Even though social access to each other is at an all-time high, the rules for engaging with each other are confused. The pervasive thought in mainstream society today (evidenced most prominently by the #MeToo movement) is that women are never not victims. If she says she was assaulted, she was assaulted, and the hivemind that is social media will enact mob justice, court system be damned. I'm not saying we shouldn't take these allegations seriously, because we absolutely should, but I am saying that they need to be handled in a way that ensures false accusations hold no power - because now how do men navigate a system where their intentions may be misunderstood? They have very little recourse, unless they themselves are in a position of actual power (outside of physical confrontations, of course; I mean in a societal sense).

Further, the culture of coddling that we're establishing in the West strips young women of their actual ability to differentiate between an undesirable situation and a dangerous one. If we keep telling young women that men are a threat, and that regretful situations are dangerous, of course they're going to feel like a victim in situations where they maybe aren't. They won't know any better.

So how are men supposed to interact with hair-trigger women? If comments they make are perceived as harassment, with all of the bite of mob justice behind them, then what? There are entire websites dedicated to shaming young men - is that right? Is that fair?

 

There is also no question that support and welfare/benefits systems favor women over men. By and large, society considers men expendable (there is a biological reason for this, but if we're going to pretend that we're better than animals, we'd better act like it). Dingle, working-aged men are the last on the list for benefits. Men are drafted for war. And the social constraints we've put on male gender roles is abhorrent. By and large, it's socially acceptable to be a gender non-conforming female, these days. We can wear what we want, act how we want, say what we want, work if we want, stay at home if we want, and often our deviation from the norm is celebrated ("tomboy" is a fashion is a thing; working women are strong and brave and powerful). If there is deviation from masculine gender roles in society, it's framed in a way so as to appease the women (eg, commercials that feature men doing the housework celebrates that the woman is the one working, not that the man is doing the housework), and it's relatively superficial. Stay-at-home-dads are still considered with some disdain, and paternity leave is a joke (note: I am thankful it exists to begin with, I think it just has a lot of growing still to do). And these are minor deviations from gender roles. God forbid one be a straight, non-trans, feminine male. That simply cannot happen; society says he either must be gay or trans.

 

So, yes, all of this to say, I can completely understand why these countercultures exist. I can completely understand the frustrations that have contributed to their creation. I don't always agree with the way that they react to these frustrations (the incel movement in particular drives me batty - sex is not a human right, it's a privilege, and it does take work to earn it; if you aren't earning it and you want it, change), but it's worth acknowledging the system that birthed them.

 

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Dreamsexual
27 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

I think a lot of these male-oriented countercultures are a direct result of the feminist movement.

I think this is true.  I also think the Internet has been an important factor.  I suspect there's a number of other complex factors at play here too.

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Tercy
1 hour ago, Chimeric said:

Dingle, working-aged men

 

*points and laughs*

 

1 hour ago, Chimeric said:

There are entire websites dedicated to shaming young men - is that right? Is that fair?

 

This sort of thing has always bothered me. There's definitely creeps out there, but on plenty of occasions the men being shamed have done nothing even remotely creepy or offensive. I think certain cultures (like those on reddit) promote a sense of wanting to contribute to the lolfest - so women will take any little thing they can just about twist into an offense and post it for the echo chamber to ridicule. Made worse by whatever conditioning comes with being repeatedly told that men are evil, etc.

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Chimeric
40 minutes ago, Tercy said:

 

*points and laughs*

 

HAHA I'm not even going to correct it. 🤣

 

40 minutes ago, Tercy said:

I think certain cultures (like those on reddit) promote a sense of wanting to contribute to the lolfest - so women will take any little thing they can just about twist into an offense and post it for the echo chamber to ridicule. Made worse by whatever conditioning comes with being repeatedly told that men are evil, etc.

There's a lot to be said for that. A lot of times it looks to me like it's just awkward, young guys who don't really know what they're doing, trying to figure out how to approach someone. There's no shame in that. Women can be intimidating, and I think that's also something that gets downplayed. Nine times out of ten, a woman turning down a guy at a bar (or in their tinder inbox or whatever the virtual equivalent is, these days) with something snide or demeaning isn't brave or empowering, it's rude. But again, there's a lot of celebration for these snide/demeaning/sarcastic/belittling/patronizing remarks in the name of "feminism". Not to say that's an accurate use of the term "feminism," 'cus it may not be, and certainly not to say that tenth time doesn't deserve it, 'cus sometimes the guys really have it coming to them...

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gisiebob

pesudoscience and mysticism shall surely solve all of our problems.

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Dreamsexual
1 minute ago, gisiebob said:

pesudoscience and mysticism shall surely solve all of our problems.

I doubt it, lol :)

But I take it you're referring to MGTOW.  I see the claim of pseudoscience as probably having some merit, though I haven't seen much mysticism in MGTOW.  I think there's some, but not much tbh.

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gisiebob
Just now, Dreamsexual said:

I doubt it, lol :)

But I take it you're referring to MGTOW.  I see the claim of pseudoscience as probably having some merit, though I haven't seen much mysticism in MGTOW.  I think there's some, but not much tbh.

on one hand there is what you know is true. in the other is what you believe. from what you have written here I see you standing with two empty hands.

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Dreamsexual
4 minutes ago, gisiebob said:

on one hand there is what you know is true. in the other is what you believe. from what you have written here I see you standing with two empty hands.

I don't know what you mean.  I detect a vague insult somewhere in there, but I'm lost as to exactly what you're saying about me.  Help?

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gisiebob
8 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

I don't know what you mean.  I detect a vague insult somewhere in there, but I'm lost as to exactly what you're saying about me.  Help?

I don't believe there is a way for me to help you. that's my mysticism.

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Dreamsexual
6 hours ago, gisiebob said:

I don't believe there is a way for me to help you. that's my mysticism

Errrrrr... Ok.  Thanks and bye, I guess??

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Philguin Baggins

Note: I’m referring to men/women here as a binary given that that’s how the groups mentioned tend to see the world. 

 

As a (probably) man, I don’t like them at all. While I get that some issues (such as men’s mental health, the idea that “men don’t cry”, and the idea that assaults on men are funny, etc.) do need to be addressed, I think the various groups are going about that completely the wrong way, particularly the ones who believe women to be out to get them. 

 

That said, I don’t know much of the specifics on each group. 

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Dreamsexual
1 hour ago, Philguin Baggins said:

I don’t like them at all

Why?

 

It seems odd to express personal dislike for a group based purely on the idea that they are trying to remedy a problem (which you  yourself recognise as at least a partly valid concern) in a manner you think wrong, especially when at the same time admitting you don't know much about them.

 

This seems to me to mean that there are specific faults you find with them that you have not yet mentioned.  What are these things that they do/say that leads you to personally dislike them as a whole 'movement' (not just the individuals who do the things you dislike)?

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Charna
On 1/14/2019 at 5:55 PM, Chimeric said:


@CaptainYesterday

 

Further, the culture of coddling that we're establishing in the West strips young women of their actual ability to differentiate between an undesirable situation and a dangerous one. If we keep telling young women that men are a threat, and that regretful situations are dangerous, of course they're going to feel like a victim in situations where they maybe aren't. They won't know any better.

So how are men supposed to interact with hair-trigger women? If comments they make are perceived as harassment, with all of the bite of mob justice behind them, then what? There are entire websites dedicated to shaming young men - is that right? Is that fair? 

 

First time someone tried to feel me up was when I was in primary school. I was so paralyzed with fear I didn't know how to react. A few years later, when I was a teenager, I was attacked by a guy in public transport, and that was on the way back from high school, middle of the day. I started screaming, the guy run off, no one in the crowd reacted. A few years later, I got attacked on my way back from uni, middle of the street, though an empty one. I got lucky, he got scared and run away.

 

I don't feel coddled, I feel that I live in a  society where reading a situation wrong can get me harmed or even killed. I am not talking here about some middle of the night, alone in the park situations; all of the violence I've faced was on the way from school, uni, public transport, middle of a crowd. I literally know of no women who hasn't experienced unwanted sexual attention at some point in their lives. If I am being "hair-triggered", then it's because of my own experiences. If you've never faced violence for simply refusing a drink, then it's easy to say you are "perceiving" that guy's comment wrong.

 

 

 

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Philguin Baggins
11 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

Why?

 

It seems odd to express personal dislike for a group based purely on the idea that they are trying to remedy a problem (which you  yourself recognise as at least a partly valid concern) in a manner you think wrong, especially when at the same time admitting you don't know much about them.

 

This seems to me to mean that there are specific faults you find with them that you have not yet mentioned.  What are these things that they do/say that leads you to personally dislike them as a whole 'movement' (not just the individuals who do the things you dislike)?

I don’t have any specific reasons that I can articulate. 

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Dreamsexual
24 minutes ago, Philguin Baggins said:

I don’t have any specific reasons that I can articulate. 

I guess that's at least honest :)

I classify myself as a Mgtow.  

do you think knowing that about me would make it harder for you to talk to me with respect and at least a neutral starting attitude, or would knowing that about me put you on guard and make you negatively disposed automatically?

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Chimeric

@Charna

 

With all due respect and sympathy to your situation, I am not referring in my posts to actual victims. That is a serious topic that needs to be addressed in a serious way. I think society's current tactic of telling women they need to fear men, and telling men that they're born animals is a way of washing our collective hands of any actual responsibility. We could be doing so much more, with the care and nuance that the topic deserves.

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Charna
47 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

With all due respect and sympathy to your situation, I am not referring in my posts to actual victims. That is a serious topic that needs to be addressed in a serious way. I think society's current tactic of telling women they need to fear men, and telling men that they're born animals is a way of washing our collective hands of any actual responsibility. We could be doing so much more, with the care and nuance that the topic deserves.

Actual responsibility for what?

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Chimeric
18 hours ago, Charna said:

Actual responsibility for what?

Responsibility for things like the rising rape rate (FBI statistics report it's been climbing over the past few years, despite decreasing crime rates overall). Figuring out where and why and what sort of specific interventions we can apply is going to be more effective than telling women everywhere that they're victims just because they're women, and telling men that they're dangerous just because they're men.

 

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Dreamsexual
44 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

telling women everywhere that they're victims just because they're women, and telling men that they're dangerous just because they're men.

Oh, you saw that Gillette advert too ;)

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Chimeric
3 minutes ago, Dreamsexual said:

Oh, you saw that Gillette advert too ;)

I haven't, actually. =D I've heard there is one addressing "toxic masculinity" (not a concept I've been convinced to buy in to yet, myself), but I haven't seen it yet. Same one?

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Tercy

Let me just grab some popcorn. Nobody reply until I'm back.

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Dreamsexual
5 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

Same one?

Oh yes.  You should check it out online. I think you'll be truly moved by it.  It's realllllly good :)

 

 

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Charna
2 hours ago, Chimeric said:

Responsibility for things like the rising rape rate (FBI statistics report it's been climbing over the past few years, despite decreasing crime rates overall). Figuring out where and why and what sort of specific interventions we can apply is going to be more effective than telling women everywhere that they're victims just because they're women, and telling men that they're dangerous just because they're men.

 

And that's why I find calling our society a "culture of cuddling" towards women so offensive. According to WHO about 20% of women living in this society experience sexual violence (and about 30% worldwide). That is literally millions. If you don't mean actual victims, if you don't mean those millions, then whom exactly do you mean when you say: " If we keep telling young women that men are a threat" then? Yourself?

 

You know what I find ironic? No one in the crowd - middle of the day, plenty of people - reacted when I got thrown to the floor by a guy. But plenty of people get the courage to protest a razor advertisement.

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Dreamsexual
56 minutes ago, Charna said:

You know what I find ironic? No one in the crowd - middle of the day, plenty of people - reacted when I got thrown to the floor by a guy. But plenty of people get the courage to protest a razor advertisement.

It's not ironic, just sad :(

It's true most people are cowardly, and it's also true that it's much, much easier and less risky to criticise a sexist advert than it is to step into a physical confrontation.  It doesn't take much courage to anonymously criticise a racist advert, but it takes genuine bravery to risk getting beaten up, killed or put in jail.

 

Didnt anyone do anything at all, men or women?  Didn't anyone even phone the cops or see if you were ok?  That really is quite depressing :( 

 

See, this is why I think we need a culture of responsible masculinity (a brave, controlled violent, physically capable man was exactly what you needed at that time) and responsibly armed citizenry (perhaps people would have felt more able to help if they could have just tazered him, or held him at gunpoint - or you could have).

 

I'm sorry that horrid thing happened to you :(  I wish society wasn't the way it is.  I have a personal dislike of bullies.  I also have a personal dislike of preachy, hypocritical, bigoted adverts.  They're not mutually exclusive.

 

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Charna

Nope, no one reacted. The guy run away when I screamed at him to leave me alone and it honestly didn't occur to me to call the cops. I was pretty shy as a teenager and was suffering from an anxiety disorder and depression.

 

That is why I find it hurtful when  hear that our society is "coddling" young women. One fifth of these young women have or will at some point experience sexual violence.

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Dreamsexual
2 minutes ago, Charna said:

Nope, no one reacted. The guy run away when I screamed at him to leave me alone and it honestly didn't occur to me to call the cops

That's depressing :(. Again, I'm sorry this happened to you.

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Charna

Thanks. :) But I can also understand if someone is too afraid to step up in a situation like that. You never know what can happen, someone can pull a knife etc.

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Dreamsexual
12 minutes ago, Charna said:

You never know what can happen, someone can pull a knife etc.

Another good argument for people being armed.  But that issue will take us far, far afield ... :)

 

Now how exactly did we end up here from a discussion on Mgtow, lol :). I've no idea how to bring it back to the core topic ... Again, I'll just say that I fall somewhere under the manosphere/Mgtow umbrella, and that I hope that alone doesn't bother folk too much.

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Philguin Baggins
23 hours ago, Dreamsexual said:

I guess that's at least honest :)

I classify myself as a Mgtow.  

do you think knowing that about me would make it harder for you to talk to me with respect and at least a neutral starting attitude, or would knowing that about me put you on guard and make you negatively disposed automatically?

The latter. My experiences with people identifying as MGTOW have so far been negative.

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Dreamsexual
14 minutes ago, Philguin Baggins said:

The latter. My experiences with people identifying as MGTOW have so far been negative.

I can understand that, though I consider it a shame.  :(

 

I'm assuming that you found them to be hateful and misogynistic.  Would you be able to share some specifics as to what they did/said that have left you with this negative attitude towards them?

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