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Galactic Turtle

MGTOW, Incels, PUA's, & MRA's

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Galactic Turtle

Hello humans. ^_^

 

I don't usually involve myself in political or social movements (which as a black woman some people take offense to) but I found myself in a strange corner of the internet the other day. I was doing general research on the motivations for and prevalence of celibacy, people who choose to remain unmarried, and people who opt out of sex outside of asexual and aromantic communities. I was first brought to some YouTube videos, some explaining the history of marriage and the pros/cons of modern marriage in addition to some videos that served more of a motivational "I am alone and I am happy about it" message.

 

What I noticed is that an overwhelming amount of comments on these videos were from people who appear to be male. There was lots of talk about the unfairness of divorce courts, lots of people who seemed to view women as sluts, whores, or generally evil people whose end goal is to steal the money and other assets of men, and a generally critical opinion of feminism and the liberal agenda mainly claiming that women have never been oppressed. Looking into it, I found descriptions of MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), PUA's (pick-up artists), Incels (involuntary celibates), and MRA's (men's rights activists). While each of these groups have differences and some actively are dislike each other, it did open my eyes to what in today's climate I guess can properly be called a counterculture of sorts.

 

Again, I'm really not that knowledgable about political or social movements. More so I just remain aware of the socio-political climate. One article I stumbled upon was about a man named Jordan Peterson, a Canadian professor teaching in Toronto. His video lectures that apparently tend to tie into the ideologies of the groups mentioned previously gain millions of views from across North America and Western Europe which I'd assume all have similar social climates. 

 

Of course with every mainstream movement there will be a movement that forms in reaction to it. I think it's safe to assume that similar groups formed in reaction to previous waves of feminism. My question is that since this current wave of feminism and liberal ideas seem to be more widespread and successful, could the impact of these various countercultures also be greater in response? Or are both sides of this just a fad? Has anyone else heard of these groups before? If so, what do you think of them?

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Sally

We've had many discussions of these groups on AVEN, mostly due to a former member bringing the issue up a lot.  You could probably do a search and find most of the threads.  

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R_1

MRA is the only one that has redeeming quality and PUAs while bad, aren't as cancerous as the other two. Incels are the worst of the bunch. Incels even condone non-consenting sexual activities i.e rape. MGTOW also are bad, but not as bad as incels, but sometimes I can't tell the difference.

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Sweet Potato
42 minutes ago, R_1 said:

MRA is the only one that has redeeming quality and PUAs while bad, aren't as cancerous as the other two. Incels are the worst of the bunch. Incels even condone non-consenting sexual activities i.e rape. MGTOW also are bad, but not as bad as incels, but sometimes I can't tell the difference.

the biggest difference between incels and MGTOW is that incels are all mad they don't have women, while MGTOW are dead certain they are better off without women. both share the "I hate women" rhetoric

I don't mind MRAs so long as it's not anti-feminism, the reverse is also true, feminism that is against men's rights is garbage.

 

 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

Then you get celibate people like me (a lot rarer though! And more commonly female I think, though certainly not always!) who don't place a lot of importance with sex and will only have it with the 'right person' even if that means we stay single and sexless for many years. We're the cool kind 8) You should ignore the others (the haters and shamers) because they're all just losers who hate women. I actually screencapped a really funny convo with one (an incel-type guy) on YouTube the other day which shows how desperate for sex they really are underneath their 'women suck!!' attitude. Tempted to upload it here later because it really is very funny and ironic :P

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

Oh and I don't have a problem with MRA just to clarify. It's people who systematically hate any one gender, orientation, or race that I strongly disagree with (and that goes for feminists who hate men as well! Or black people who hate whites, or gays who hate straights, etc). 

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Evren

I am so sorry you found these people. At least the incels, they often post stuff about kidnapping or buying women and forcing them into literal slavery. The believe that women should have no rights basically and blame all women for not instantly having sex with them whenever they want. MRA's aren't really evil usually, however they often seem to have trouble seeing stuff from other people's viewpoints. I do agree with some of they're stuff though, like having services for men who get raped or that women and men should have the same rights (we just tend to disagree on who doesn't currently have those rights). 

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Jade Cross

The only thing I could sort of agree that aligns with MGTOWs ideals is that there is no need to be in a relationship to comply with social norms, other than that, I dont see much point to their movement.

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uhtred

I think the MRA, PUA and INCEL and Red Pill guys cover a LOT of range. Some of them are voicing legitimate concerns, others are basically advocating rape.   Despite agreeing with a few of their points, I would NEVER associate with any of those groups because of their more extreme members.

 

Example of what I see as a valid issue:  Since I'm male, there are some airlines that will not let me sit next to a child because I might molest them. I find this deeply offensive because it is judging me as a potential criminal based on what other people of similar genetics have done.  (and for the record I am completely opposed to any sort of targeting groups for extra scrutiny). 

 

Example of what I see an an interesting issue: Some men find themselves unable to find a sexual relationship, but societal laws and standards make it illegal or at least widely viewed as immoral for them to seek out prostitutes or porn.  Is that sort of societal behavior consistent with a society that accepts a wide range of other non-traditional sexual activity. 

 

Example of what I find completely wrong and offensive:  There are some INCELS who think that men have a *right* to have sex and that their partners should not be allowed to turn them down.   

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Jade Cross
21 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Example of what I see an an interesting issue: Some men find themselves unable to find a sexual relationship, but societal laws and standards make it illegal or at least widely viewed as immoral for them to seek out prostitutes or porn.  Is that sort of societal behavior consistent with a society that accepts a wide range of other non-traditional sexual activity.  

I would call it hypocritical but society is always playing a double standard for pretty much everything.

 

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argar

I have seen a  few videos on a lot of the different groups above, and the one trend that all the groups share, is this belief that they are the victim.

 

In some cases, some of the groups make a better argument in demonstrating the victimization of their particular group.

 

I am including certain feminist rhetoric in the groups mentioned above just to be clear.

 

I think in a lot of cases the less extreme groups make valid statements.

 

What bothers me is those that take their victimization mentality so far that they demand that the world owes them something.

 

Sometimes I think certain members some of the particular groups above, use this excuse to not better their situation, or as an excuse to manipulate others.

 

This is just my opinion though.

 

 

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Chimeric

I've read Jordan Peterson's most recent book, and I was a fan of his before his name entered this weird counterculture fray. I feel deeply obligated to stand in his defense. How he ended up being the poster child for the incel movement is completely beyond me. The man preaches personal responsibility and basic common sense (ie, if you want to attract a good mate, be a good person) - which is very much in contrast to what the incel movement believes (if a man can't get a woman, it's because women have been raised to reject anything but rich/handsome men, etc). Peterson speaks very candidly about existing statistics regarding the presence of women in upper-level management, and makes general observations about what are - in general - masculine and feminine traits, that apply to different fields of employment in different ways. He is well-educated, articulate, and open-minded (I've seen him cede points and grow his perspective in multiple interviews). I don't always agree with him, and he is an academic so he gets a little bit stuck in his field sometimes (so do I, I can understand how it happens) - but it rubs me so the wrong way to see his name mentioned in conjunction with the incel movement. He is literally their antithesis, and anyone who has seen his interviews or lectures or read his book knows this (not a dig at you, OP - a dig at all of the reporters who have so horrendously misconstrued him).

 

I have more to say about the topic at hand but not enough time at the moment to say it, just wanted to pop in for JP. 😃

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Rob Boss
3 hours ago, Galactic Turtle said:

Again, I'm really not that knowledgable about political or social movements. More so I just remain aware of the socio-political climate. One article I stumbled upon was about a man named Jordan Peterson, a Canadian professor teaching in Toronto. His video lectures that apparently tend to tie into the ideologies of the groups mentioned previously gain millions of views from across North America and Western Europe which I'd assume all have similar social climates. 

 

 

Jordan Peterson's only connection to incels and MGTOW types is how he gets them to stop acting like that.

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Gloomy

I can actually relate to MRA's and MGTOW. Men do sometimes get the short end of the stick in our society (divorce courts, having to sign up for the draft, etc.). Relationships are kind of a pain in the ass whether you're dating men or women. I "go my own way" myself, and I think if I were a man then the unfairness of divorce courts and the lack of an option to opt out of parenthood in case of accidental pregnancies would be even more of a reason for me to remain single.

 

Not all incels hate women. The ones who are depressed and lonely because they want relationships but can't seem to get them have my sympathy, though the ones who hate women or even advocate rape unfortunately give them a bad name.

 

I don't really have an opinion on PUA's. Their tactics wouldn't work on me for obvious reasons, but as long as they don't keep pestering me after I turn them down then we won't have any problems.

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Nightbreed

@uhtred I wouldn't take it personally. Obviously it is something that happened often enough that they stopped seating men near children. Do you think they should change it and risk children getting molested just so no adult males get their feelings hurt?

 

I seriously question any male who doesn't prioritize the safety of women and children above their own feelings. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot don't..

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Galactic Turtle

Thank you all for the info! I'll explore the rest of AVEN to see threads related to these groups. I guess I was just shocked because I wasn't privy to any of this before. On the other side, I'm also not really privy to exactly what the scope of modern day feminism is. I've only recently just learned what a TERF is (but in doing so stumbled upon people who viewed this section of feminism as a good thing and a bad thing). These days I thought in America the two main issues were about the wage gap and reproductive rights.

 

I guess I'm just a bit bummed that, similar to religious or spiritual celibacy, other motivators behind celibacy tend to carry some form of negative energy or struggle that is absent in asexual spaces. I wish we could all be friends! But alas, we've arrived at similar lifestyles for entirely different reasons. 

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uhtred
1 hour ago, Nightbreed said:

@uhtred I wouldn't take it personally. Obviously it is something that happened often enough that they stopped seating men near children. Do you think they should change it and risk children getting molested just so no adult males get their feelings hurt?

 

I seriously question any male who doesn't prioritize the safety of women and children above their own feelings. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot don't..

Black men are convicted of violent crimes at a substantially higher rate than are white men.  I can't find the statistics, but based on that, I expect that they are convicted of rape more often than are white men.  (assuming each racial group commits different violent crimes at the same ratio of rapes).

 

So should black men not be allowed to sit next to women on airplanes?

 

IMHO clearly not.  Not for at least 2 reasons. One is that the statistics say nothing about the individual, and we should never judge individuals by their (involuntary) group association.  Second is that it is likely the higher conviction rate for black men is due to bias - partially caused by the *belief* that they commit more crimes and so are more likely to be investigated by police. (and of course other bias). 

 

So, no, safety is not a good enough reason because the total risk of being molested on an airplane is actually quite low.   

 

Blaming / suspecting people for the actions (true or not) of others that look like them has led to some very dark places in history.  

 

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E

Yep. Although these people aren't exactly new. They're just a vocal manifestation of what's already there and been there. Don't much care to pay attention to any of them frankly.

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E
6 hours ago, Vincent Van Schmo said:

Jordan Peterson's only connection to incels and MGTOW types is how he gets them to stop acting like that.

 

Peterson's taken loads of flak though since he's opposed notions and ideas in feminism and been involved with campus incidents where he works. As far as I know or have seen, a lot of media's taken a liking to bashing Peterson for a few good months now.

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Chimeric
9 hours ago, Galactic Turtle said:

I've only recently just learned what a TERF is (but in doing so stumbled upon people who viewed this section of feminism as a good thing and a bad thing).

 Careful with this one, too. I am called a TERF on social media at least once a week, and I am neither trans-exclusionary, nor a radical feminist. Radical trans activists will use this label as a way to discredit people with whom they disagree, whether or not it's accurate.

 

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Evil
37 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

I am called a TERF on social media at least once a week

To be fair... who isn't these days.. Is just another stupid attempt to silence and shame people that won't bend the knee to unscientific ideologies.

 

Sidenote: Hey you ❤️

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RoseGoesToYale

Ironically, if you look back at the early 70s counterculture, women's and men's liberation movements were the counterculture. I think the modern incarnation of feminism and the MRM are two sides of the same coin, just as their ancestors were in the 70s. The liberation movements were less concerned with the legal and economic implications of gender inequality as they were on the social... they sought to liberate men and women from male and female gender roles, i.e. women would liberated from being socially obligated to perform care-taking roles, bear children, stay at home, wear dresses, makeup, bras, etc; men would be liberated from being socially obligated to win bread, protect, be emotionless, wear suits, fight, etc. I'd say it failed miserably, as we still have hoards of women being marketed bras and eyeshadow and fruity-smelling deodorant and men are still being called on to take dangerous, high-paying jobs that result in many deaths. The gender roles are still in place, they've just bent slightly.

 

Feminism and MRM are concerned with rights, but right now feminism is the popular ideology, because it's pretty and marketable. It bears little in resemblance to previous forms of feminism and women's liberation, which were dirty, disruptive, and slightly clandestine. Now MRM is the dirty, the disruptive, the clandestine, but the basic principal is the same: "What does the other side have that has taken away from my ability to live fully?" This is a dangerous question, because it assumes individuals are responsible for the suffering of the group, rather than the system. Women don't have equal rights because men have too many. Men don't have equal rights because women have too many. You should shift legislation around until the cows come home, but it still doesn't address the central question of how our current system of gender creates inequalities for everyone.

 

Unfortunately, people don't like to address systems because that requires hard soul-searching and 

 

In that sense, feminism is still counterculture, but only if you got back to it's original questions. It's been made very polished and socially acceptable by corporations and executives seeking to profit from a larger, double gender workforce, and one must always, of course, keep the workers happy. (I better get out of here before my vaguely Marxist behind goes on a tangent...)

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Dreamsexual

I would classify myself as belonging to one the many sub-varieties of MGTOW.

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Dreamsexual
On ‎1‎/‎8‎/‎2019 at 9:18 PM, Galactic Turtle said:

Has anyone else heard of these groups before? If so, what do you think of them?

My thoughts are quite messy and complex, like the labels/groups themselves, and no doubt biased by my being part of at least one sub-group of the 'manosphere'.

 

As you've already noted there's considerable differences between various sub-groups of the manosphere (PUAs and Incels are pretty different, for example), and within that there's also considerable individual differences (some are misogynistic, some aren't) person to person.  This makes it very hard to talk about with any accuracy - they're are not very cohesive at all, especially given that many MGTOWs are also of an individualist bent.

 

I'll try, as a non-expert, to offer a few of my own thoughts, and then I'm happy to try and answer any questions that follow from my own perspective (though I cannot make any claim to speak for all the manosphere).

 

I think there's a number of over-lapping features commonly found amongst/within these types of people:

 

1) Varying degrees of misogyny

 

2) A belief that men/women are different biologically and psychologically (and more different than 'mainstream' culture thinks)

 

3) A belief that men/women suffer different forms and degrees of social problems/discrimination and that ...

3b) ... there is/has been emphasis upon female issues more than male (often considered undue emphasis to the detriment of males)

 

4) A general rejection and often hatred of feminist ideology which is often interpreted as a anti-male female supremacist movement

 

5) The belief that women's sexual nature is more promiscuous (or at least more serially monogamous) than is commonly portrayed, and that it is largely driven by hypergamy and the unconscious desire to ensure the best genetic mate (so men with strong masculine physical characteristics) and/yet also the best capacity of provider/father (security, wealth etc).  But that this ...

5b) ... is problematic in that it is very hard to find a singular man who epitomises both the 'best genetic mate' and 'best provider/father' types, rather it tends to work out that women desire multiple men, one to fulfil the male provider role (husband/father material) and others to provide the good sex ...

5c) ... and that this is further compounded by the idea that women's hypergamous sexual nature predisposes them to 'monkey-branching' upwards, ie always seeking a better mate and better provider - an ineradicable aspect of femaleness which often leads to female promiscuity, adultery, and divorce (hence the saying, 'she's not yours, it's just your turn', and a general distrust of women's fidelity and loyalty)

 

6) The belief that male desire, in contradistinction to female desire, is only predicated/predisposed mostly on the seeking of a 'healthy' mate, which translates as the desire for young, fertile, physically attractive women, and that men care less about female status than women care about male status (hence the saying that, 'no number of university degrees make a man hard') ...

6b) ... which is considered problematic because feminism has led many women into seeking educational and career status (phallocentric thinking?) in the mistaken pursuit of an often unrealisable ideal of being a combination of sexy woman, good mother, and high-achiever in the public sphere ...

6c) ... made more problematic by their hypergamy which then seeks a mate of equal or higher status to herself, which given their own high achievement is practically very difficult (a shrinking pool of eligible men) ...

6d) ... and made worse by the anti-male/female focussed (gynocentric) social structures which hinder men's academic and career prospects (even smaller group of attractive potential mates) ...

6e) ... which ultimately leads to the collapse of normal family structures and makes many women and men unhappy (hence the strong dislike of feminism which is generally blamed for this state of affairs).

 

7) The general idea that the 'solution', or at worst a way of protected living, within this social/gender social structure is to opt-out of traditional relationships, either by avoiding any romantic/sexual encounters at all, or by just avoiding marriage ..

7b) ... which for some becomes the basis of not just managing one's own affairs (remaining celibate, for example), but also a rationale for changing society (from trying to change divorce laws all the way to advocating a complete segregation of the sexes and replacing women with artificial wombs and sex-bots, or to removing women's political rights, like the right to vote, and re-instituting 'real' patriarchy).

 

8 ) The general belief that it is now dangerous to have much to do with women (false rape allegations, false domestic abuse charges, anti-male family court procedures etc) - which goes on to reinforce 7 above.

 

9)  A lot of anger borne from negative personal experiences with women

 

There's lots more - but that's plenty for now :)  I've already bored many to death, I expect, lol :)

 

One thing to remember about the above is that not all beliefs/attitudes will be found in all manosphere folk (some might hold to 4 and 5, whilst rejecting 1 and 2 etc.), and that this plays out in different folk's lives very differently (one might personally eschew all female relations whilst having nothing to say about politics or generalisations about gender because of their own bad experiences, whilst another might have a very happy marriage yet be seeking all manner of political/social changes because of their ideological beliefs).  It's a big, weird, and diverse world! :)

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Woodworker1968

MGTOW aren't really going their own way, they're going the Archie Bunker/Alf Garnett way... wimpy-looking guys, blame their bad luck on everyone but themselves, mad at the world, made shitty life decisions, live paycheck to paycheck, have no ambition, wish for a halcyon conservative yesteryear that never really existed. The only real difference is the MGTOW still need sex like a junkie needs heroin.

 

In the future, bot owners will join the ranks of those we love to hate. These are the guys who are successful in everything but attracting women. But it will be damn hard to shame them because they'll be happy with their bots, just like Realdoll owners like Davecat and Gordon Griggs have been for a few years now. Shame them, and they turn the tables and brand you a troll on YT.

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Dreamsexual

As a MGTOW I think your portrayal is an incorrect and ill-informed stereotype Woodworker.  I suspect you are confusing MGTOW with incel and are not aware of the many variations within the 'manosphere'.  A common mistake :)

 

Perhaps you'd like to discuss this with me with the emotion turned down? :)

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Knight of Cydonia

One of my friends was MGTOW. He believed all women were intrinsically materialistic and manipulative - not necessarily consciously, but at least subconsciously - and "marry up" for things like money and status. He'd often cite divorce rate statistics, and the bias of the justice system in favour of women when it came to things like family court as reasons to swear off women. (Side note, he's now in law school and cited these injustices as his motivation for becoming a lawyer.) He'd say things like "I would never cheat on my girlfriend or wife, but I can't know that they won't do that to me." Overall, he felt that there was significant chance that if he were to get married, they would just divorce him later and leave his life ruined - thus, being with a woman was too much of a risk.

 

When I first met him (first year of university), he wasn't like this. He talked often about wanting a girlfriend, had strong crushes on girls, and was very open to talk and ask for dating advice. Over the years, he became more and more bitter about not having a girlfriend, frustrated that he still hadn't experienced sex, talked more negatively about experiences with women, and become more and more conservative in his political views - and then the MGTOW comments started. I can't help but think there is a connection there.

 

Honestly, the reason he wasn't getting a girlfriend was because of his own actions. Frankly put, his personality is very grating, he's loud, obnoxious, has a crude and sexual sense of humour, and lacks an understanding of what's socially acceptable. I talked this over with our mutual friend who'd also noticed his change in behaviour and agreed with me about his personality. We decided to stage an "intervention" to try to poke holes in his logic given we were both coming from the perspective of people in working, loving relationships, and we both wanted him to be happy, given that he used to speak so hopefully about having a girlfriend. So the reason I said he "was" MGTOW at the start of this post was because I think we actually got through to him. He's started talking about relationships again in a hopeful and positive, rather than negative, light.

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Dreamsexual

Yes, that does sound like many MGTOW from my experience, Knight.

 

The combination of believing certain things about female sexual nature, law corruption, the state of marriage etc ('red pill knowledge') with personal bitterness in connection with women ('red pill rage') probably fits the majority (though not all) MGTOW types.

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Charna
On 1/8/2019 at 10:18 PM, Galactic Turtle said:

I don't usually involve myself in political or social movements (which as a black woman some people take offense to) but I found myself in a strange corner of the internet the other day. I was doing general research on the motivations for and prevalence of celibacy, people who choose to remain unmarried, and people who opt out of sex outside of asexual and aromantic communities. I was first brought to some YouTube videos, some explaining the history of marriage and the pros/cons of modern marriage in addition to some videos that served more of a motivational "I am alone and I am happy about it" message. 

 

This isn't anything new, except maybe for the labels. Facebook and youtube have simply given them a wider platform, but what they preach is has been here for a long time, only better hidden from the public view. And I honestly don't think this is a reaction to feminism. Feminism is a target (and only one of many), because by declaring women and men equal it stands against the extremist ideologies that proclaim otherwise. Heck, the nazi idea of women was centered around the goold ole kitchen, church, children and women not having many other choices. And now that you get a rise of the far-right and other extremist ideologies online, it doesn't suprise me that extreme misogyny rears its ugly head as well; they both go hand-in-hand.

 

I have to admit it's one of the reasons I tend to limit my fb, yt etc. usage. Verbal violence is still a form of violence and my resilience is not what it used to be nowadays.

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Dreamsexual

While there's some truth in what you say Charna, I don't think the rise in the manosphere can be wholly divorced from feminism and the changing laws and cultural structures.  I think a good chunk of these groups can be considered a form of backlash against feminism and 'gynocentric' societies.  

 

Additionally, whilst the traditionalist complementarian views of gender have been around forever, these are often distinguished and looked down upon by MGTOWs in a three-way in-fight between: conservative traditionalists (often Western cultural chauvinists who some MGTOWs disparagingly call trad-cucks/trad-cons); MRAs (who specifically try to re-order society away from what they see as feminisms worst legal excesses); and MGTOWs (who often seek to protect themselves from both feminism and female nature in general), and these views are fairly new and can often be radical in ways traditionalists would bulk at (sex dolls, sex segregation, porn use, promiscuity, celibacy, etc).

 

I'd also reject the conflation of words with violence, but that's a whole other debate and thread :)

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