Thoughts on The Difference Between Feminism, Sexism, Equality and Fairness

[Avya1689]

I posted this because I think it would be interesting to see a whole topic on it. On a social media platform, I have an account to post anything that might be controversial and I don't have super popular opinions which is why it is anonymous, of course I don't believe in hating on people for no reason but I digress.

I posted something about how feminism may be creating sexism against guys, but the interesting part is that, could sexism towards guys makes them act sexist towards women and make more women feminists? Also there IS a difference between fairness and equality and in some cases I don't know if equality is what people want if they think about it. But that brings in more questions. 

[Knight of Cydonia]

This is a pretty complicated bunch of issues. For instance, while I basically support the end goal of feminism by definition (equality of the sexes), I don't call myself a feminist because I disagree with a lot of the "execution" of it these days. I think some self-described feminists have lost sight of the goal, and men's issues can be unfairly ignored. But then what even would equality of the sexes look like? It's an impossible goal because of inherent differences between the biological sexes. Take abortion issues for instance - there will never be truly equal reproductive rights because it's the woman who bears the child.

 

Further, equality can mean different things. Does male and female equality mean we have equal representation across all careers (e.g. just as many female engineers as male ones, just as many male nurses as female ones, and so on, which would be equality of outcome), or should it instead mean everyone has equality of opportunity, support, and freedom of choice to pursue whichever career they wish? Is equality of outcome even a good thing? Does following equality of opportunity mean we should offer just as many scholarships for men as we do women, or is affirmative action in favour of women necessary to achieve equality of opportunity in the long run?

 

As for fairness, well, everyone has a different idea on what is fair and what isn't. People are full of biases, even subconsciously, without realizing it. It's one of the reasons this is all so difficult to give a right answer to.

[Philip027]

Quote

Femenism

Careful, you'll piss off the feminists spelling it like that...

[Avya1689]

26 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Careful, you'll piss off the feminists spelling it like that...

Apologies, I wasn't quite sure how to spell it, and I wasn't able to check. Thanks for letting me know. 

[Avya1689]

1 hour ago, Knight of Cydonia said:

Does male and female equality mean we have equal representation across all careers (e.g. just as many female engineers as male ones, just as many male nurses as female ones, and so on, which would be equality of outcome), or should it instead mean everyone has equality of opportunity, support, and freedom of choice to pursue whichever career they wish? Is equality of outcome even a good thing?

I think that gender equality would be making both male and female work hard for the same goal, not exactly the same amount because the same amount of each gender in a specific position does not show how hard they worked or if it was even fair. 

[(Creative name)]

When I first heard of feminism I didn't even know that men and women weren't considered equal, and it made me kinda mad at the world knowing that some people were being mean to women for literally no reason. So I started to be like, "yeah, I guess I support feminism". But over the years it's really changed for the worse. At this point it's just feminists saying that, "the world would be better without men" and, "all men are obsessed with sex, they only care about how we look, etc...". The latter example REALLY makes me mad cause they talk of equality but then completely ignore the fact the ace men (and ace spectrum men) exist. At this point I stopped calling myself a feminist and started calling myself a equalist, even though that probably not a word or a thing even, but I pretty much just want people to be equal and what other word than, "equalist". So in conclusion I think feminism used to be a great and amazing thing, people finally taking a stand fighting for womens right, but now its just people complaining but not trying to change anything and complaining about "all men being sexist" meanwhile that entire statement is literally sexist and Male feminists exist, even though at this point if there arent as many feminist men I would be okay with that cause the entire feminist community now is just saying that men are terrible dirtbags, which is so not true.

[Homer]

Moved to Philosophy, Politics And Science

Homer

Moderator Tea & Sympathy

[uhtred]

Most political movements have extremists, and those are often the most vocal.  That can give a very biased idea of what the average person who supports the movement thinks, and sometimes can discredit the entire movement in the eyes of other people.

 

Even if you disregard the extremists, things like "fairness" can be tricky.   Its easy to say "women should be paid the same as men".  But the devil is in the details.  For the same job? Same performance (measured how)?,  Same job history?  Same amount of salary negotiation?  

 

I can even throw in my favorite complication: height.  Its been shown that taller people generally are promoted faster and earn more.  So should women on average make the same as men, or the same as men of the same height???  (just an added complication to help confuse things).

[Avya1689]

22 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Most political movements have extremists, and those are often the most vocal.  That can give a very biased idea of what the average person who supports the movement thinks, and sometimes can discredit the entire movement in the eyes of other people.

 

Even if you disregard the extremists, things like "fairness" can be tricky.   Its easy to say "women should be paid the same as men".  But the devil is in the details.  For the same job? Same performance (measured how)?,  Same job history?  Same amount of salary negotiation?  

 

I can even throw in my favorite complication: height.  Its been shown that taller people generally are promoted faster and earn more.  So should women on average make the same as men, or the same as men of the same height???  (just an added complication to help confuse things).

That makes a good point, complications are everywhere and the details are most important, but even if the details are made fixed and so on, what about the outcome? Even if everything is fair and equal, will everyone be satisfied or still believe there is still sexism?

[Sally]

23 hours ago, (Creative name) said:

At this point it's just feminists saying that, "the world would be better without men" and, "all men are obsessed with sex, they only care about how we look, etc...". 

"Feminists"  I'm one and I'm not saying those things.  Maybe you shouldn't pitch us all into a group that you don't like.  

[QueenOfTheRats]

33 minutes ago, Sally said:

"Feminists"  I'm one and I'm not saying those things.  Maybe you shouldn't pitch us all into a group that you don't like.  

i am saying those things, and it's fine :3

[what the face]

 

Consider the Drama Triangle here.  (Karpman's , not my term)

A social model of the roles persecutor, victim and rescuer which people get caught in.  

 

The drama might initiate with a persecutor finding a victim, or a victim perceives or seeks out an attack by persecutor.

                                           On the societal level:  one sex victimizing another . . .

The next act, the victim looks for or finds a rescuer, who out of altruism or ego trip takes on their role.

                                            A feminist movement takes on the struggle .  .  .

In the following or last act(s)  the dynamic shifts as do the roles in all manner of well observed ways.

                                            .   .    .     .       .

      The rescuer may come to resent the victim's needs and move to the victim role. 

      Or the rescuer might act out in anger/frustration and become a persecutor.

      Persecutors may take on the victim identification.

      Though not PC these days to blame the victim, through vindication or revenge they

      can become heroic or tragic perpetrators.

      Many (future) rescuers were once victims themselves.

      etc.

 

These roles and their fluid shifting in this whole feminist movement /discussion create such confusion

and drama, my term here, that the moves that might alleviate the dynamic,  like taking responsibility or

connecting to personal power are too often misunderstood.

 

I believe if each of us could better see our own roles in this area

and when they might or should shift we could better find the justice and

equality we seek.

[uhtred]

12 hours ago, Avya1689 said:

That makes a good point, complications are everywhere and the details are most important, but even if the details are made fixed and so on, what about the outcome? Even if everything is fair and equal, will everyone be satisfied or still believe there is still sexism?

I think the problem is that people will disagree with what constitutes "fair and equal".  I don't think it is nearly as well defined as many people think. 

[Jusey1]

My thoughts are simple. I support Equality where everyone has an equal fair chance, even if this doesn't mean it will become an "equality in the workplace". I don't care if the workplace itself is 90% male and 10% female (or whatever statistics you want to use). As long as everyone has an equal chance and only the best people are hired for said job, then that's how it should be.

Not every job is made for every person and not every person is made for every job.

This belief of equality also applies to respect, benefits, and many other aspects. I strongly believe that people should NEVER get benefits based on their race, gender, or other elements of whom they are (which this does happen sadly). The only benefits that should be given out freely are to those who have some kind of mental, or physical, disability just severely harms their chances of work (or completely), or if that benefit in question is out of respect that was earned. (For example, some restaurants in my area will give veterans 15% off of their meals because they have served this country in battle and sacrifice much of their life in doing so).

[Dreamsexual]

.

 

[Howard]

At risk of being popular, I see myself as an individualist more than anything. For example, if a woman wants to be a nurse instead of a doctor, let her. I know it can be viewed as sexist because there are more male doctors than female ones and doctors make more money than nurses, but if it's what an individual wants, let the person go for it even if it will broaden the gender pay gap. I worked in both man and woman dominated fields and I don't understand the 50/50 across the board thing people, male or female, wants to do like Trudeau did with his cabinet in Canada because when I worked in male dominated fields, there were so few female applicants. Why should an employer reduce his or her standards to achieve political correctness? I stand firm against social justice but I stand firm for individual rights.

[InDefenseOfPOMO]

A bumper sticker I saw many years ago said something like "Feminism is the radical notion that women are human".

 

I can only speak for myself, but I believe that we will have equality when a woman's sex plays no role in what she believes about herself and what others believe about her. It is not enough to say that women should be treated the same as men. Rational people will act according to what they believe. What we believe about ourselves and others is the roots of the matter. The right beliefs will result in people being treated justly.

 

I believe that girls and women are capable of anything. The sky is the limit.

 

As a man I know that it is easy to feel offended, discouraged, etc. when feminists say negative things about men. "Every man is a potential rapist" is especially difficult to cope with.

 

However, I try to respond with empathy and compassion. When feminists--both male and female--say negative things about men they are doing what they have to do to be heard in a world where historically women have been silenced. In spite of it being easy to get defensive, I try to instead forget about my own feelings and listen and hear their frustration, anger, despair, etc.

 

I will be honest: I do not think that many women recognize that empathy and compassion. They have chips on their shoulders. If a man is treating them as his equal they find it to be suspicious. They are not used to being treated with dignity and respect by men.

 

Where feminism has failed, in my estimation, is in liberating men from their rigid, dehumanizing sex role. A man cannot treat a woman as fully human until he is allowed to be fully human.

 

There are people, including women, who have a vested interest in maintaining sexism and misogyny. If nobody had any political or economic interest in the oppression of women, such oppression would cease to exist. The most important thing that both women and men can do is make the costs of oppressing women exceed the benefits. Things like laws against discrimination are needed but are not effective enough if the goal is to end all oppression of women. What would really be effective would be for all of the non-sexist, non-misogynistic women and men in society and around the globe to unite around their common humanity. Anybody who wants to treat anybody else as less than human because of sex and gender would then be on the margins of society. Being on the margins means missing out on the full benefits of being a member of society. That is a penalty that no amount of laws against discrimination, sexual harassment, etc. can match.

[Sally]

On 2/8/2019 at 3:09 PM, Howard said:

 For example, if a woman wants to be a nurse instead of a doctor, let her. I know it can be viewed as sexist because there are more male doctors than female ones and doctors make more money than nurses, but if it's what an individual wants, let the person go for it even if it will broaden the gender pay gap. 

The point is not nurses making less than doctors.  The point  is that when there are female nurses (or doctors) and male nurses (or doctors), men should not make more than women doing the same job.  

[uhtred]

I believe the goal is that everyone have the same opportunities / choices regardless of gender, orientation, race etc except in the very rare cases where gender differences directly impact the work. 

 

Unfortunately this is difficult to judge because sometimes choices are correlated with gender, and in those cases sometimes, but not always, those different choices are caused by other discrimination. 

 

Similarly I would like everyone to be judged on their personal actions, not on the actions of others of the same group - with the exception of groups joined voluntarily.  Eg someone should not be judged as a potential fascist because they are German, but the *can* be judged as a fascist if they choose to join a pro-Nazi group.

 

 

[Howard]

On 7/23/2019 at 1:24 PM, Sally said:

The point is not nurses making less than doctors.  The point  is that when there are female nurses (or doctors) and male nurses (or doctors), men should not make more than women doing the same job.  

Equal pay for equal work is passed into law, at least in Canada. Despite this, the wage gap exists because of choices individuals make.