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James121

Would you leave

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
1 minute ago, James121 said:

Most sexuals wouldn’t go ahead and marry that person who they have no desire for or can’t enjoy the kink that is being desired. That’s precisely the issue!

As has been very articulately explained to you about 58 times now, the unidentified asexual does not KNOW they're not feeling something that other people do feel (because they don't know what that thing is meant to feel like) when they get into said relationship.

 

They're often told 'it'll happen eventually' 'it's normal for it to take time' 'you just have to relax more', all kinds of excuses to normalize their feelings IF they even suspect something might be wrong and speak to someone about it, but it's just as common that they don't even know there's something different about them. But when they DO talk to people, it's normalized so they figure that what they're experiencing is something quite common and things will change (because that's what they're told over and over again).

 

I'm not sure how many times people have to try to explain this to you, in how many different ways. But unidentified asexuals don't knowingly get married with the knowledge that there is something very different about them sexually.

 

7 minutes ago, James121 said:

A sexual person who is not having sex is one of 3 things. 

1) cheating

2) planning to leave

3) unhappy

That's not actually true in all cases but yeah, an ace who is having sex is also probably unhappy so it's a lose/lose. Hence why mixed relationships rarely work.

 

9 minutes ago, James121 said:

The message in the UK for at least the last 40 years has been the complete opposite of this. It’s more along the lines of “you are under zero obligation to say yes”

No, a lot of people (women especially) are told to just relax more, to introduce toys, even that it's normal to not like it and that it's mostly for the man anyway. All kinds of nonsense. Maybe you got told differently growing up being a man, but for a woman, when you try to voice not enjoying or desiring sex everyone does try to normalise it and convince you that eventually you'll learn to like it. That's extremely common.

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HayaH

About questions from topic, for us marriage is inner state which should be a base for everyone (staying true to your own self, not betraying your own self for sake to gain something, knowing exactly what you want, etc.) 

When it's fulfilled, then person can start to make alliances with others (like politic). And alliances should work on same principle, all sides to be satisfied in every sense (if it's friendship, love relationship with romance or sex involved, etc).

 

Founding relationship only on sex, or romance, or only one common detail is not enough. That alliance should become open, and allow the third (or even fourth) party to enter in alliance to make a balance, without damaging any side. There's no reason for leaving someone, until there is a connection. People should only redefine their relationship (stay friends after seeing they are mismatched lovers,  continue to care for each other as always, etc.)

Dramatising is the problem, and people should avoid dramatisations.

 

It's hard to say that any relationship made of two or more sides can work if any side must sacrifice something. 

It's more a mismatch. People must find healthy way for any kind of alliance/relationship, without damaging each other. 

 

 

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James121
6 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

As has been very articulately explained to you about 58 times now, the unidentified asexual does not KNOW they're not feeling something that other people do feel (because they don't know what that thing is meant to feel like) when they get into said relationship.

I’m not sure who tells them this because as mentioned, in my country for at least 40 years or so the message has been that you are not obligated to say yes. Who tells an asexual this stuff? You’ll have to explain it another 58 times but in all likelihood, I’ll still believe it’s a load of old pony.

 

8 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

But unidentified asexuals don't knowingly get married with the knowledge that there is something very different about them sexually.

I don’t agree. They do. Maybe not all but again it’s ridiculous to suggest that all of them unwittingly entered their marriages.

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James121
6 minutes ago, HayaH said:

There's no reason for leaving someone, until there is a connection. People should only redefine their relationship (stay friends after seeing they are mismatched lovers,  continue to care for each other as always, etc.)

Stay together but just as friends you mean?

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HayaH

 

 

25 minutes ago, James121 said:

Stay together but just as friends you mean?

Redefining relationship, and it means not only friendship (if you are married, continue to care about your wife supporting her in every sense, talk with her openly what are the best solutions for two of you).

In many cases, women will agree on compromises if you don't leave her and allow her to feel safe and still loved no matter what.

 

Fear of leaving is actually real trouble. You should continue to give her safety if she needs it, explain that you won't replace her, and that everything will be the same (or slightly changed).

If you need sex as "vent", then try to find person who will agree with both of you, include all "parties" in subject and be completely honest with all of them, and eliminate "cheating" from a case. 

You must give your wife safety, then she would think and probably accept if it not harms her. The third party must also accept conditions not to harm your connection with your wife.

 

But you never ever bereave your wife! And never do anything before her eyes with no one else!  We are sure women will respect more this open construct knowing for it (and feel respected), than living closing their eyes about infidelity and silently suffer.

 

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HayaH

To add and say shortly, turn all what you wrote in starting post in:

"I don't want to suffer, nor you, I don't want to cheat you, and I don't want to leave you"

Talk with her, and for sure you will both find the best solution for everything. 

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CBC

Being completely honest here... I'd probably initially cheat with someone else I'd connected with emotionally and seriously fallen for (as opposed to just sex with random people; that doesn't really interest me), and then end up leaving my partner (in whom I would eventually lose certain types of interest anyway) for that other person. I've lived a variation on that scenario for somewhat different and more complicated reasons. At this point, I know I would really just not even entertain a relationship with someone who wasn't into me sexually; that component is absolutely vital to me in order to feel fully connected to my partner and I've learnt that I become quite miserable without it. I'm not going to waste my life on something mediocre and unfulfilling.

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ryn2
6 hours ago, nanogretchen4 said:

Are you saying that "just packing up and going" causes a lot of damage and therefore mixed orientation relationships are even more harmful than I think they are? Or are you saying that "just packing up and going" causes a lot of damage and therefore sexuals should just sacrifice all hope of being happy themselves in order to fulfill asexuals' dreams of lifelong sex free marriage with sexuals?

I’m saying just packing up and going after many years together is complex and difficult.

 

I don’t disagree that people would generally be best served never getting into mixed relationships; I just don’t agree with your rationale for how it happens.

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ryn2
2 hours ago, Philip027 said:

Notifications can be disabled if you don't want to see when you've been quoted or namedropped.  I don't know how it works on mobile necessarily but on desktop you just click the bell at the top and then click Notification Settings.

It’s very similar on mobile.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, James121 said:

The message in the UK for at least the last 40 years has been the complete opposite of this. It’s more along the lines of “you are under zero obligation to say yes”

Then how did you mistake what you were getting into?

 

It sounds like we need to accept that there may be some significant cultural differences from place to place.  That, and there may be gender-based differences in message of which even the locals of one gender are not aware.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, James121 said:

Sometimes just leaving, just isn’t that easy. Especially when you effectively wave goodbye to the relationship as you know it with your children and your house/assets.

And yet you fault others for not hurrying out the door based on sexual differences alone, and imply they are staying for the assets...

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ryn2
2 hours ago, James121 said:

Most sexuals wouldn’t go ahead and marry that person who they have no desire for or can’t enjoy the kink that is being desired. That’s precisely the issue!

What if they discovered kink later on?  “A little something to spice things up” and then one is crazzzzy for it and the other is complerely disgusted and turned off?

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ryn2
1 hour ago, James121 said:

I’m not sure who tells them this because as mentioned, in my country for at least 40 years or so the message has been that you are not obligated to say yes. Who tells an asexual this stuff? You’ll have to explain it another 58 times but in all likelihood, I’ll still believe it’s a load of old pony.

Is there an AFAB person in the thread who grew up in England?

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Telecaster68
1 hour ago, HayaH said:

Talk with her, and for sure you will both find the best solution for everything. 

Well, best in the sense that it's the least worse. Communication just clarifies though, it doesn't, in itself, solve.

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HayaH
1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

Well, best in the sense that it's the least worse. Communication just clarifies though, it doesn't, in itself, solve.

It's true, but from it starts and leads to solutions. 

Better is to communicate and then make decision, than make any decisions concerning two persons, without introducing them, before.  Whatever is result of communication.

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Philip027
Quote

The message in the UK for at least the last 40 years has been the complete opposite of this. It’s more along the lines of “you are under zero obligation to say yes”

I have no clue what it's like in the UK, but where I'm from there is still a prevailing message of "if you don't have sex, nobody will stay faithful to you"

 

So it's more like "you are under zero obligation to say yes... but if you never say yes, you're just wasting the other person's time and shame on you for doing that" so therefore, some people will elect to give a reluctant yes, instead of being That Guy and saying no.

 

It's not difficult to find accounts here of asexuals being told this, whether or not they actually buy into it themselves.  Some undoubtedly do.

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Serran
1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

Is there an AFAB person in the thread who grew up in England?

It could be cultural as well as gender, honestly.

 

@James121 - You are aware in the U.S spousal rape wasnt illegal until 1993? Meaning, when most of us were growing up, we legally were obligated to give sex to our husbands if they desired it and if we said no, they legally could take their "property" which was our bodies. That is the culture everyone giving me advice grew up and married in (I thankfully didnt begin dating until after that law). My female family members even had to get their husbands signed permission for life saving surgeries, because their bodies belonged to the husband at that time. That is probably why so many women my age and older I know still follow the gender role of owes man sex, even if you dont want it. 

 

Of course, as a 19 year old kid I didnt realize the societal programming going on or the toxicity of the idea. I just knew these women were older and experienced and thus should know more than me. Now I can recognize the reasons behind why people say it. But, our churches still preach the idea the wife owes their spouse sex or she is helping him sin by lusting after other women...and religious people put a lot of value into that, which is part of why my current social circle of women say it. 

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, Philip027 said:

I have no clue what it's like in the UK, but where I'm from there is still a prevailing message of "if you don't have sex, nobody will stay faithful to you"

There's that message - because it's far more true than not - but it's obviously not the same as 'you have absolute sovereignty over your own body'. They're kind of... complementary. Negotiating them is the tricky part.

 

I completely supporting teaching kids that they have absolute sovereignty over their own bodies, without reservation, because otherwise younger people (especially) can get browbeaten and manipulated into all sorts of shitty situations. However, part of maturing is understanding that sometimes your own direct immediate interests are better subordinated to groups you're part of, or for your own longer term best interests. Judging that balance is tricky, and some people will always lean too far one way or another; from a sexual's perspective, it often seems the nature of a mixed relationship means the asexual's direct, immediate interests are almost always primary over everything else.

 

It's hard to feel part of a partnership in that situation.

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Telecaster68

@Serran

 

I do think we Brits sometimes forget how conservative our colonial cousins can be and how much religious prejudice still informs the culture (especially since in theory you guys have explicitly separate church and state and our head of state is explicitly head of the church too). The whole concept that someone can be sacked for their sexuality, for instance, is just shocking. It's flat illegal here, beyond any debate. 

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ryn2

There’s also a bit of two different points here.  Yes, many US kids are taught today (not when I was a kid, but for quite a while now) that they “own” their bodies... but the context is initially avoiding/detecting molestation and then avoiding specific unwelcome advances.  It’s not generally known or discussed that some people just don’t like sex, at all, with anyone, ever.

 

So, as Ficto mentioned, if you raise concerns with friends and doctors you get advice on how to find sex you’ll enjoy... and, yes, there is still a strong cultural message that sex is the price women pay for companionship and companionship is the price men pay for sex.  I think most people realize it’s not quite that simple for everyone but it’s what underlies all the “bonding” grumbling you hear everywhere.  There’s also still a double standard about women who like sex for sex’s sake being “bad,” both in that they will be rejected by other women and that they will be used and thrown away by men.

 

Again, not like everyone believes every word verbatim... but it makes for an environment, especially for women, where being “meh” about sex seems in line with what people are saying.  It’s also an environment where younger men with “performance issues” are shamed.

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ryn2
30 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The whole concept that someone can be sacked for their sexuality, for instance, is just shocking. It's flat illegal here, beyond any debate. 

It’s illegal in some form in most US areas too... but the problem is the number of people who think it shouldn’t be.

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ryn2
45 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

from a sexual's perspective, it often seems the nature of a mixed relationship means the asexual's direct, immediate interests are almost always primary over everything else.

This comes back around my question yesterday about how we can accurately (or even generally) gauge the relative cost of aces having sex they don’t want (potentially with partners who are, with different intent entirely, inadvertently insistent that the ace must appear to actually want it) against that of sexuals not having sex they do want.

 

I get the sense at least some sexuals think it is a 1:1 (or less) trade, but is it?

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James121
2 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Then how did you mistake what you were getting into?

 

It sounds like we need to accept that there may be some significant cultural differences from place to place.  That, and there may be gender-based differences in message of which even the locals of one gender are not aware.

How did I mistake? Believe it or not, sex forms a very important part of a relationship between most normal healthy adults.

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ryn2
4 minutes ago, James121 said:

How did I mistake? Believe it or not, sex forms a very important part of a relationship between most normal healthy adults.

What I meant was, if for 40 years people where you live have been taught that message, how did you mistake the relationship you were getting into for one that was more typical sexwise?

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

NZ is far more culturally similar to the UK than the US and for women here the prevailing attitude is that if you don't want sex then you just haven't had enough of it and need to learn to enjoy it/you haven't been with the right person/women aren't meant to enjoy it anyway. The people claiming it's not like that in the UK so far are male and the attitude towards sex has always been different for them than it is for women (ie it's always been considered fine and good for a male to be promiscuous, but 60 years ago a woman could be thrown in a nuthouse and lobotomized for being promiscuous - Kennedy's sister is one such example. Even nowadays women are still called sluts for being promiscuous whereas it's just 'boys being boys' when a man has a lot of sex with random women). No, a man will never know what it's like for a woman growing up and trying to learn how to behave sexually and what she should and shouldn't do and should and shouldn't enjoy. It's not a cultural thing, it's a gender thing. End of.

 

49 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

from a sexual's perspective, it often seems the nature of a mixed relationship means the asexual's direct, immediate interests are almost always primary over everything else.

As myself and many others have tried (repeatedly) to point out to you over the years, it's often only the miserable sexuals who end up on AVEN. There are many aces on AVEN currently suffering daily sex for the sake of their sexual partners, and many who went through it for years, even decades, before finally being able to say 'no, I can't do this anymore'. Obviously the overwhelming amount of sexuals who end up here are going to be miserable (and they seem to moan even when their ace partner is giving them sex), but some - you especially - seem to constantly ignore the fact that there are indeed many aces who do give sex, regular sex, no matter how bad it makes them feel. So no, the asexuals direct and immediate interests are certainly not almost always primary over everything else, it's only that way in some mixed relationships. It only seems that way because you have confirmation bias due to the fact that the only sexuals who end up here aren't getting as much sex as they want. The amount of aces who given (and have given) sex here though far outweighs the number of sexuals who aren't getting sex. I have no idea why I'm trying to explain this yet again though, because you always say it doesn't count for whatever reason if the ace has been giving their sexual partner daily sex for years. You always find a reason why the asexuals sacrifice is not valid (ie ''it's practically rape so it doesn't'' count is one you've pulled out in the past. News flash - it's no different than the sacrifice the sexual is making by giving up sex. It's consensual and willing so no, it's not rape. Take it from someone who has given sex they don't want but has also been raped. They're two hugely different experiences. Believe me)..

 

I guess if justifying it by claiming it's rape so it doesn't count helps you sleep at night though then so be it.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

What I meant was, if for 40 years people where you live have been taught that message, how did you mistake the relationship you were getting into for one that was more typical sexwise?

I'm interested to know that myself. I mean, it must have been easy to tell if his wife is as unwilling as he claims she is? ...Or did she maybe just lose her libido and desire with age, or after the honeymoon phase wore off, which is after all very common.

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ryn2

Yeah, there’s not a 1:1 relationship between “my spouse no longer - or only grudgingly - has sex with me” and “my spouse is ace”... in either direction.

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Telecaster68
16 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

This comes back around my question yesterday about how we can accurately (or even generally) gauge the relative cost of aces having sex they don’t want (potentially with partners who are, with different intent entirely, inadvertently insistent that the ace must appear to actually want it) against that of sexuals not having sex they do want.

 

I get the sense at least some sexuals think it is a 1:1 (or less) trade, but is it?

I'm not sure we can - the type of the cost will vary from person to person and is subjective.

 

Maybe a version of one of those mental health questionnaires, administered to each partner, with questions like, answered on a Likert scale:

  • How much has the absence/presence of sex affected your ability to concentrate?
  • How often have you self medicated in any way to deal with the absence/presence of sex in your relationship?
  • How much do you feel bad about yourself because of the state of your sexual relationship?

... just an initial stab.

 

I suspect the pain of not having sex you want is different to the pain of having sex you don't want.

 

For myself, the pain of not having sex I wanted was about rejection, isolation, not feeling good enough, feeling cut out of whatever was going on with my partner. It was a slow, insidious growth, but went very, very deep. It was ever-present, not just occurring at the point of rejection (and after a while I just didn't put myself in a position where rejection would happen, and managing that brought up its own ongoing pain because it was a constant reminder of rejection). It was exacerbated by my partner's obliviousness to (first of all) there being an issue; then her lack of engagement and denial of it; and her ability to sail on happily regardless. I assume she felt some distress at some level about my unhappiness, but she never showed it. I suspect a degree of alexithymia on her part, which probably contributed.

 

From what I gather, a lot of this is the straight inverse of what some asexual partners feel, so on straight emotional grounds, as far as I can tell, it's probably about equal.

 

The bit that rankles, still, with me, is that sexual partners have no choice but to accept the underlying problem - no sex - is out of their control and will always be part of that relationship, and that loss of agency is a big contributor to their distress; frequently, the asexual seems able to pretty much put the whole thing out of their mind most of the time, presumably because in their world, sex really isn't a big thing, and if it does come to mind, instantly feels they're under threat. They might feel that, but their partner has already capitulated, let alone feeling threatened.

 

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Telecaster68
15 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

There are many aces on AVEN currently suffering daily sex for the sake of their sexual partners

Some. I seriously dispute 'many' because most aren't in relationships, and daily? No. And when there are asexuals having amounts of sex way over what they'd be comfortable with, sexuals chime in saying their partner needs to throttle back. I know I have, and others have.

 

There are many posts where asexuals are on AVEN precisely because their relationship is at crisis point as they'd come to the conclusion they can't have sex any more; I'd better money that every one of their partners has been silently compromising and probably getting regularly rejected for years before that, and those asexuals haven't noticed.

 

Beyond that, I don't think I've ever actually argued against anything you've said, apart from possibly in your head. It's obviously true that we're both only talking about sexuals and asexuals on AVEN. Please don't imply I've likened rape with rejection. Some sexuals on AVEN have, but I've been bloody careful not to, as it's clearly not like it.

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Telecaster68
24 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

NZ is far more culturally similar to the UK than the US and for women here the prevailing attitude is that if you don't want sex then you just haven't had enough of it and need to learn to enjoy it/you haven't been with the right person/women aren't meant to enjoy it anyway.

I'm happy for you to describe the culture in NZ as I've never been to NZ. How long have you spent here getting to know UK culture and when was it, Ficto?

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