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Would you leave

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Telecaster68

I meant no orgasm is a detail, not just her first. 

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ryn2

...but I’ve also had men argue with me that they KNOW I had one, and that I’m the one that’s wrong or even lying, when I didn’t even fake one.

 

Clearly some people are more expert than others.

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Traveler40
2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

 

Out of interest, were you consciously faking or over playing enjoyment? 

 

In my case, I was consciously faking orgasm - no need to overplay enjoyment of the journey.  Sometimes the journey is better than an expected peak.  Sadly, at times one needs to fake the orgasm for a host of reasons. I haven’t felt the need to do it in a long while. It makes me wonder about how things might have been had I had a broader experience base.

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ryn2
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

I meant no orgasm is a detail, not just her first. 

No, I meant - because agreed it’s not a subtle thing - I didn’t realize she was talking about orgasm and thought she meant/was describing was something that happened to her (each time) beforehand.  Like the dog whose leg twitches when you scratch its stomach.

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ryn2

This is hard to clarify without TMI’ing, lol!

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ryn2

Giving it a try...

 

• forgot serran had not orgasmed prior to current partner, so (mis)interpreted “enjoying myself” as enjoying foreplay

• consequently interpreted description of how partner knew as something partner reported noticing during enjoyed (v. tolerated) foreplay

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Serran
3 hours ago, Traveler40 said:

In my experience it was ego that got them...

Pretty much. 

 

My ex insisted I was lying about not liking or wanting things cause my body produced a lot of liquid and thus "you are too wet and women come to me for advice on how to enjoy sex, therefore you enjoy it and just dont want to admit it". And since more stimulus meant more liquid produced, he insisted that was orgasm. 

 

And I didnt argue really cause had never had one solo or partnered so I was just like... well if that is orgasm i dont get the big deal... 

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Sally
2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Out of interest, were you consciously faking or over playing enjoyment? 

Nice gotcha, Tele.  I was trying to make myself be "normal" by going through the motions of what I'd read was felt by people who weren't messed-up (as I thought of myself).  I tried every single time.  It didn't work, but I kept trying.    

 

However, you've said that sexuals know when someone isn't having an actual orgasm.  My partner didn't.  

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Telecaster68
14 minutes ago, Sally said:

Nice gotcha, Tele.  I was trying to make myself be "normal" by going through the motions of what I'd read was felt by people who weren't messed-up (as I thought of myself).  I tried every single time.  It didn't work, but I kept trying.    

 

However, you've said that sexuals know when someone isn't having an actual orgasm.  My partner didn't.  

Actually I said it was probably hard to tell if someone was deliberately faking it. 

 

It wasn't an intentional gotcha, honestly. You just appear to have been host by your own petard. 

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ryn2

A former coworker of mine bragged that he never got tricked because during a *real* orgasm people’s toes curl.  Duly noted, buddy; thanks for the tip.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
9 hours ago, Serran said:

As I said before, if you suspect you dont like sex and talk to sexual people about it then you get told a lot of stuff.

Yup. I went to a doctor at 18 because I was so upset and confused about total lack of enjoyment of or desire for sex (despite having a libido and being able to want relationships with people) and he said that because I'm young and fit and healthy that means there's nothing physically wrong me, I just have to keep having more and more sex until I learn to enjoy it, and that I need to relax more when I have it.

 

I now know I'm not even ace, but that's the kind of shit unidentified aces face all the frikken time. They try to talk to others about what's going on, be that doctors, friends, or partners, and people say it's normal. They just need to experiment more.  They need to try including toys. They just need to relax more. Once they've been the right person they'll get it. Partners are SURE they'll eventually be able to make you want and enjoy it as long as they just keep trying, and everyone else is agreeing with them. Then some people even say stuff like 'oh it's normal for women to not really enjoy it. It's for the man' (thank you high school sex education teacher).

 

I don't think @James121 has any comprehension about what it's like being an unidentified asexual (or even a slightly different type of sexual person) based on some of the things he's said here. You certainly don't 'just know' because the whole frikken world (including those closest to you) are telling you that what you're experiencing is normal and you'll learn to like it eventually. That's how I ended up having sex I hated (and that hurt me badly) for 5 whole frikken years. I believed what the rest of society (including doctors) were telling me about how I'd learn to love it eventually and how what I was experiencing as a young female was 'totally normal'

 

The irony of it is that I did learn to enjoy some forms of sex once I ACCEPTED AND WELCOMED CELIBACY. Haha. Having sex the way others wanted me to is what fucked me up in the first place and if I'd kept doing that, I could easily have ended up married to someone who ended up hating me 9 years down the line because I just wouldn't have been able to learn how to want and enjoy sex.  They'd be saying the same things James is here: "you must have known. You tricked me you evil bitch how dare you!!" when it was them and everyone else (and society as a whole) insisting I'd like it eventually and disregarding my concerns as 'totally normal' which led me to that position in the first place. I've lost count of the amount of aces I've now met who have been in my position exactly and so ended up married or in long-term relationships thinking they were 'totally normal' (because that's what they're told!!!) until eventually they learn about asexuality and everything finally clicks.

 

It's just sick that some people then go and say those aces must have been intentionally manipulating their partners into a relationship under false pretences and James certainly isn't the only person that I've seen saying just that around here Y_Y 

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Traveler40
2 hours ago, ryn2 said:

 

A former coworker of mine bragged that he never got tricked because during a *real* orgasm people’s toes curl.  Duly noted, buddy; thanks for the tip.

 

That’s so funny it deserved a repost! Hahaha.  Yep 👍🏻

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Sally
5 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Actually I said it was probably hard to tell if someone was deliberately faking it. 

 

It wasn't an intentional gotcha, honestly. You just appear to have been host by your own petard. 

Host?  I'm neither a host, nor have I a petard.  I think the latter are more common among men.  :D

 

But here's what you asked me:  "Out of interest, were you consciously faking or over playing enjoyment?"

 

As though it was one  or the other.  But it was neither, so no hosting hoisting occurred.  

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E

I'm sexual in a strange manner. I can go through long periods without sexual interaction. No, I'd not opt to leave. To me, part of a vow that comes with partners is both being able to withstand the bumps that come along the way, and being able to put up with some aspects of a personality that I can't change, because everybody is different. There's no such thing as matching personalities. There's close ones, but never 100% line ups.

 

Love's a choice between two people. I had a partner once whom was both incredible yet volatile. She had what both me and her coined as "dark days," phases of time in which she'd go near catatonic, unresponsive, and not eat. While these phases aren't remotely related to sex, they were a difficult thing for me to withstand. I was miserable during these phases, worried and unable to change anything. But I did stick around as rationally, even though those days could be tremendously hard on me, I made the choice to stay by her side.

 

Sex ain't the primary reason I'm with somebody. While it's an important part to a relationship, it's not the core. What if for some reason one day my partner contracted a disease or something that meant neither of us could have sexual interaction? Would it be fair for me to abandon them then? If I confessed love for them, would I so willingly give them up just for the sake of sexual interaction?

 

What kind of a hollow shell of a person would I be if I did? Simple. One I couldn't live with.

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James121
57 minutes ago, E said:

I can go through long periods without sexual interaction. No, I'd not opt to leave. To me, part of a vow that comes with partners is both being able to withstand the bumps that come along the way,

So does that mean that even during the periods of not having any particular desire, you would make the effort to participate if your partner felt desire?

 

59 minutes ago, E said:

While it's an important part to a relationship, it's not the core.

For me, it’s not thee core but sex and intimacy are at a relationships core (along with some other things of course). If sex is not at a relationships core, where is it? Just something to do for a bit of fun when you fancy it?

 

1 hour ago, E said:

Would it be fair for me to abandon them then?

No. It would be fair for your partner who can no longer participate to offer an alternative solution.

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E
27 minutes ago, James121 said:

So does that mean that even during the periods of not having any particular desire, you would make the effort to participate if your partner felt desire?

 

For me, it’s not thee core but sex and intimacy are at a relationships core (along with some other things of course). If sex is not at a relationships core, where is it? Just something to do for a bit of fun when you fancy it?

 

No. It would be fair for your partner who can no longer participate to offer an alternative solution.

 

Always, because it's a standard I hold myself to. When I am involved with somebody, I give everything. It doesn't matter how tired I am, how worn down I am, or how much I don't particularily feel like doing something in particular, the number one person I'm looking out for isn't me, it's my partner. It's the way that I am, and the way that I was with my partner. With my sexuality being what it was and is, her sex drive outpaced mine completely, but I did my best to make her feel the best.

 

Sex and intimacy can be a part of the core of a relationship, although I'd say that sex doesn't neccessarily have to be, although intimacy is highly important. I was refferring to myself in regards to sex however. For a lot of people, sex is an important core to a relationship. To me, while it's a factor of some importance, I myself personally don't need it in abundance, if at all. It's nice, yes, and it's nice to share with somebody, but if I don't have it, I simply don't have it, and that's it.

 

As a kid, I stifled my sex drive easily. As an adult, I've had to survive for roughly eight years past the death of my previous partner. In that time span I've had zero sexual interaction or much of a sex drive to speak of.(With some exceptions as of late for reasons I won't elaborate on) It doesn't much bother me. If I wanted sex, there's a thousand ways to get it. But I'm not after that.

 

What truly makes a relationship to me are the mental ties that I hold with somebody. Their level of intelligence, their personality, and their mind's capability to challenge my own with new perspectives and ideas, while at the same time being a portion harmonious to my thoughts. Having somebody to communicate with on those levels, having somebody that I trust, having somebody that I know has my back, and is as capable as I am means more to me than sex ever could. Sex is just a side benefit in a relationship to me.

 

And for the last part of the quote, I'd tend to disagree. On paper, yes, it would be fair. But I'm not interested much in fair. Life's not fair. When I have a partner, as far as I'm concerned, there's not much room for myself because I'm going to dump everything that I am into making them happy. My number one priority, the only reason I live, and stay alive for is augmenting somebody's life. What makes me happy and content is the happiness of the one I'm with, and being able to enable it. That's all that I need, and all that I want.

 

Granted, that opens the door for abuse. I'm smart enough to know when something is abuse. And I'm smart enough to know that I'm such an oddball of a person in rarity that if I ever do take a partner again, I know they aren't going to fuck around with me, because to find somebody like myself again out in this world isn't easy. (Although lately I've got my hopes up)

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James121
13 minutes ago, E said:

With my sexuality being what it was and is, her sex drive outpaced mine completely, but I did my best to make her feel the best.

I admire this attitude albeit you should be careful you don’t end up capitulating to every demand of your partner. There’s always a line in the sand!

16 minutes ago, E said:

Sex and intimacy can be a part of the core of a relationship, although I'd say that sex doesn't neccessarily have to be, although intimacy is highly important.

This is where you’ll find many many specials smashing their heads on brick walls. To many of us, sex is simply a subheading under intimacy. Most relationships won’t survive without intimacy as they almost become arrangements. Sex is that level of intimacy that many sexuals need in order to feel loved and valued but it’s often declined for weeks and even months in some cases. Can you imagine what type of arsehole I’d have to be to remove cuddles, kisses and “I love you sweetheart” from my marriage on the basis that ‘I don’t feel any need’ to say or do such things?

 

22 minutes ago, E said:

And for the last part of the quote, I'd tend to disagree. On paper, yes, it would be fair. But I'm not interested much in fair.

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Your own words were

 

“When I am involved with somebody, I give everything. It doesn't matter how tired I am, how worn down I am, or how much I don't particularily feel like doing something in particular, the number one person I'm looking out for isn't me”

 

If that’s your view then your partner should behave and act the same and if not, you have one person who is subservient to the other in the relationship.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
8 minutes ago, James121 said:

If that’s your view then your partner should behave and act the same and if not, you have one person who is subservient to the other in the relationship.

One would hope his sexual partner would be someone who would never pressure him if he's not in the mood then, just he wouldn't pressure his partner into it if she's not in the mood.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
9 minutes ago, James121 said:

Can you imagine what type of arsehole I’d have to be to remove cuddles, kisses and “I love you sweetheart” from my marriage on the basis that ‘I don’t feel any need’ to say or do such things?

Yeah but kisses, cuddles, and 'I love you's' are on a different level of intimacy because people usually do those things with their kids and other family members. Sex is on a completely different intimate level and some people aren't able to 'be' on that level (due to the actions that go with it, ie sex) without experiencing stress and discomfort. It's not 'intimacy' if they are only forcing themselves onto that level (at the price of their own happiness) just so you can be happy. Just as no it's also not fair for someone to be forced into celibacy. Hence why mixed relationships can almost never work. 

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James121
Just now, Ficto. said:

One would hope his sexual partner would be someone who would never pressure him if he's not in the mood then, just he wouldn't pressure his partner into it if she's not in the mood.

Spontaneous sexual desire- to feel a natural spontaneous desire for sex.

 

Responsive sexual desire - a desire for sex that only surfaces at the point you begin having sex. The desire for sex usually starts when you become aroused, the arousal can only happen if you participate in foreplay.

 

One would also hope that someone would never pressure him in to having sex if he’s not in the mood but equally someone would also hope that he doesn’t always rule it out just because at the point it’s initiated, he doesn’t happen to be in the mood. Clearly this isn’t going to work for a sex repulsed individual or for a true asexual but lots of people say no and dismiss the idea of sex simply because at that particular time, they were not ‘spontaneously’ in the mood.

 

 

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James121
6 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

Sex is on a completely different intimate level and some people aren't able to 'be' on that level

Agreed. So is marriage. You don’t chose your family members and walk down the aisle with them. You choose your spouse so the comparison is not just. Your spouse is your specific choice and should be seen slightly differently.

 

8 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

It's not 'intimacy' if they are only forcing themselves onto that level (at the price of their own happiness) just so you can be happy.

Agreed. Unfortunately in many many low or no sex marriages, sex wouldn’t cause distress it’s simply that one of the two is happy enough without it.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
1 minute ago, James121 said:

but equally someone would also hope that he doesn’t always rule it out just because at the point it’s initiated, he doesn’t happen to be in the mood.

If someone isn't in the mood then they're not in the mood. I myself would never, ever push a partner into sex if they weren't in the mood and wouldn't ever expect them to force themselves to be in the mood just for my sake. I'd be disgusted by the idea of trying to have sex with someone who was not in the mood, just as I'd be disgusted if someone tried to insist I have sex with them even I wasn't in the mood (which can actually hurt quite a lot for a woman). If our 'moods' don't coincide ever, then we never have sex. That's final.

 

5 minutes ago, James121 said:

Spontaneous sexual desire- to feel a natural spontaneous desire for sex.

That's the only type I experience, you can't try to force me to want it by pushing foreplay. I still need foreplay to get aroused enough to actually engage in sex, but I need to be in the mood in the first place or it ain't happening. There are many people, both men and women, like myself. I hope you understand that? You can't just make someone want sex by initiating it with them in a lot of cases. They already have to be in the right head space to start with.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
Just now, James121 said:

Unfortunately in many many low or no sex marriages, sex wouldn’t cause distress it’s simply that one of the two is happy enough without it.

If someone does not want sex then yes, having it will begin taking a toll on them in almost all circumstances. It's a very, very emotionally demanding act and if you're not mentally in the mood it can take a shit-load out of you. Been there way too many times myself. 

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James121
2 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

I myself would never, ever push a partner into sex if they weren't in the mood and wouldn't ever expect them to force themselves to be in the mood just for my sake. I'd be disgusted by the idea of trying to have sex with someone who was not in the mood, just as I'd be disgusted if someone tried to insist I have sex with them even I wasn't in the mood

Well I have done this and **within reason** I would never see the idea of my spouse wanting to have sex with me in such a negative way. It’s not disgusting at all for my wife to want sex, me not to be particularly in that mood but to go along with it any way to please her. It’s called being selfless and considerate of her desire and feelings.

7 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

You can't just make someone want sex by initiating it with them

No I agree. They have to be open minded enough and know their body well enough to know when they are saying no because they really can’t/don’t want to vs no because at that particular time they don’t happen to be horny.

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E
16 minutes ago, James121 said:

I admire this attitude albeit you should be careful you don’t end up capitulating to every demand of your partner. There’s always a line in the sand!

This is where you’ll find many many specials smashing their heads on brick walls. To many of us, sex is simply a subheading under intimacy. Most relationships won’t survive without intimacy as they almost become arrangements. Sex is that level of intimacy that many sexuals need in order to feel loved and valued but it’s often declined for weeks and even months in some cases. Can you imagine what type of arsehole I’d have to be to remove cuddles, kisses and “I love you sweetheart” from my marriage on the basis that ‘I don’t feel any need’ to say or do such things?

 

We’ll have to agree to disagree. Your own words were

 

“When I am involved with somebody, I give everything. It doesn't matter how tired I am, how worn down I am, or how much I don't particularily feel like doing something in particular, the number one person I'm looking out for isn't me”

 

If that’s your view then your partner should behave and act the same and if not, you have one person who is subservient to the other in the relationship.

 

That's why I figure I don't much have to worry about my partner actually. If I know that they're like me, then they aren't going to demand anything of me. They aren't going to push my buttons. 

 

"Can you imagine what type of arsehole I’d have to be to remove cuddles, kisses and “I love you sweetheart” from my marriage on the basis that ‘I don’t feel any need’ to say or do such things?"

 

Interesting that you bring that up. You know in my observations, I see a lot of shit going around between sexual couples. It seems to me like regardless of sexuality, people need to work on communication and compromise, and they often don't. 

 

"If that’s your view then your partner should behave and act the same and if not, you have one person who is subservient to the other in the relationship."

 

Actually, I'd say no to that as well. Ideally, yeah, it'd be nice if my partner reciprocated my sentiments, but in understanding myself I have to understand that I'm so rare as a person that not even somebody I take as a partner might hold themselves to the standard that I hold myself to. It wouldn't be right of me to ask or expect that of them. And you know relationships are incredibly dynamic things right? There are healthy relationships that exist out there with a more dominant and subserviant coupling due to personalities of individuals. Not every relationship is defined with "equals" as partners.

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Winged Whisperer

Off topic, but I seriously need to get this off my chest: Hey @E , your "give everything to partner and have their happiness as your goal" attitude is actually something I also share! Despite this, I feel like a shitty human being, because every now and again, like every 3-6 months or so, I suddenly have feelings for someone else, I get a crush and fall in love and it just confuses the hell out of me, or alternatively just don't feel like I don't love my wife as much as I think I do. The best explanation I could come up with is that I'm poly-romantic, on a basic level, even though I've never been in a poly relationship. Anyway, sorry for the tangent, is this weird? Have you ever encountered something similar?

 

Anyway back to topic
 

2 hours ago, James121 said:

If sex is not at a relationships core, where is it? Just something to do for a bit of fun when you fancy it? 

Honestly for all my life this is how I thought of sex in relationships.

 

 

57 minutes ago, James121 said:

Spontaneous sexual desire- to feel a natural spontaneous desire for sex.

 

Responsive sexual desire - a desire for sex that only surfaces at the point you begin having sex. The desire for sex usually starts when you become aroused, the arousal can only happen if you participate in foreplay.

As far as I understand in my researching, matching libidos is actually a rarity, and couples often have "maintenance sex". Have you thought about that and talked to your spouse about it? In general @James121 I feel - and I don't know maybe I'm wrong- that you're not communicating your needs to your spouse at all. I haven't gotten the indication that she's asexual, so maybe talk to her about that?

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ryn2
31 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

Honestly for all my life this is how I thought of sex in relationships.

Same.  I’m starting to feel like there are actually (at least) three groups... sexuals for whom sex in relationships is an essential thing, sexuals for whom sex in relationships is a fun bonus, and asexuals for whom sex in relationships isn’t an intrinsic benefit.

 

(rephrased to not exclude sex-neutral and sex-favorable aces)

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Winged Whisperer
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

sexuals for whom sex in relationships is an essential thing, sexuals for whom sex in relationships is a fun bonus, and asexuals for whom sex in relationships is a drawback, 

But what about sex positive asexuals? 🧐

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James121
4 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Same.  I’m starting to feel like there are actually (at least) three groups... sexuals for whom sex in relationships is an essential thing, sexuals for whom sex in relationships is a fun bonus, and asexuals for whom sex in relationships is a drawback,

Bingo! For some, sex is a bonus that happens for fun here and there. Such a good way to word it. Unfortunately if you are in the ‘sex is an essential part of intimacy’ category, you are open to the unsavoury comments that often get chucked around on forums such as this one and in life in general.

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ryn2
2 hours ago, Winged Whisperer said:

But what about sex positive asexuals? 🧐

Maybe “never a benefit” encompasses sex-favorable aces better than “always a detriment” does.

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