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James121

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Light02

@nanogretchen4 You say that asexuals should date within our own orientation but do you realize how hard that is? Asexuals are 1% of the world's population, within my whole life I've never met a single person besides me that I knew was asexual. I've met bisexuals, gay people but never another asexual. And, obviously, if I did meet a fellow asexual who I knew was asexual that wouldn't automatically mean our romantic orientations will be compatible, it doesn't mean we'll even like each other on a basic level, let alone on a romantic level, etc. There's lots of reasons why aces don't/can't date other aces. But if I was lucky to have an asexual partner that'd actually be great and I'm sure most asexuals would enjoy being in that kind of relationship, it's just hard to do.

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Telecaster68
1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

ot just against expectations,  but) a legal breach of contract that essentially renders the marriage agreement null and void.

It is, though. Is grounds for annulling a legal contract.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
15 hours ago, SusannaC said:

Ficto, here is where your analogy confuses me about the dildo in my drawer:  the dildo is something I use when I AM in the mood.. if I NEVER use it, it doesn’t matter what happens to it.  It’s essentially forgotten and not of interest.  My husbands penis is obviously not MINE although I thought the understanding was he would use it exclusively with me when we married.   Now, since he has chosen to close it away forever, like the forgotten dildo analogy, then what does it matter, to him or me?  

I don't really care if my analogy makes sense to you (or anyone else here) or not, because I was trying to explain what cheating is like from MY perspective (as James very distastefully brought it up in reference to me specifically) so I was saying what it's like for ME.

 

To me, intimacy belongs solely within a relationship even if it's not 'in use', and to take that outside a relationship is literally stealing from your partner. Just as it would be theft to take your partners dildo (or any of their belongings) and hand them around for other people to use before bringing them back to your partner. I used 'dildo' as an example because that's actually something deeply private. If I owned one, even if I never used it, I'd feel disgusted and betrayed if I found out my partner was sneaking it out of my drawer and sharing it with other women before bringing that used, soiled thing and sneaking it back into my drawer - I need to wash just thinking about it. And no, 'washing it' isn't enough. Once it's soiled it's soiled and same goes for my partner's cock. I'd feel exactly the same if he took his cock and shared it around with randoms, even if I had no use for his cock within the relationship at that time (which I certainly wouldn't if he saw sex as a 'right', but I would have dumped him on his ass ages ago if that was the case anyway. Anyone who feels entitled to sex would induce immediate asexuality in me, so yeah.. I'd be choosing option A in that case)

 

Cheating (to me) is also a sign of innate weakness. Either man-up and leave, or deal with the lack of sex. Don't go sharing your private shit around with randoms without your partners permission though just because you want to have your cake (keep your asexual partner) and eat it too (get lots of sex).

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ryn2
15 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It is, though. Is grounds for annulling a legal contract.

Here it only is if you have never had sex together at all.  Once you’ve had sex the one time you can no longer legally annul.  So, never having sex from day one would void the contract but there is no contractual provision for (or against) subsequent sex in the standard agreement.

 

One church encourages a bit of fibbing because it does not recognize divorce and only allows annulment, but that’s a religious matter rather than a legal one.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
4 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Here it only is if you have never had sex together at all.  Once you’ve had sex the one time you can no longer legally annul.  So, never having sex from day one would void the contract but there is no contractual provision for (or against) subsequent sex in the standard agreement.

I would think it's the same everywhere? Or can people literally say (in some places anyway) 'my wife doesn't give me sex 4 times a week anymore so my marriage is no longer valid!'? 

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ryn2

I don’t have examples of other vows/contracts but it sounded more like a general provision for ongoing sex along with all the other rights and responsibilities of marriage.  Perhaps someone with firsthand experience can give more detail. 

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ryn2
Just now, ryn2 said:

I don’t have examples of other vows/contracts but it sounded more like a general provision for ongoing sex along with all the other rights and responsibilities of marriage.  Perhaps someone with firsthand experience can give more detail. 

It actually might appear in the divorce laws instead/as well.  That’s where annulment shows up here.

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Winged Whisperer
29 minutes ago, Light02 said:

You say that asexuals should date within our own orientation but do you realize how hard that is?

I don't even accept the premise that aces should only date each other. The whole point of being a romantic (non-aromantic) asexual is that you don't look at people for sex, it's not part of your motivation for relationships. On the other hand you don't get to choose who you fall in love with, if you're heteroromantic, the entire opposite gender is more or less part of that pool of potential mates that you could fall in love with. We're not robots, we have feelings. And only a tiny fraction of that potential pool are asexuals, and asexuals don't  (and why should they?) wear their asexuality on their sleeves either, so you're not going to get to know about their sexuality until you start communicating and get to know each other. What asexuals (who know what they are and identify as such) should do, is explain their asexuality at the beginning of or before a relationship starts. If the other person is cool, then cool, if they're open to compromise, then talk about that, etc. and if they don't think they can work it out, then that's cool too and they won't get together. I know if I ever get a divorce and will be single again, or even if I want to start a extramarital poly-romantic relationship that I'll get my asexuality out of the way at the beginning to avoid any unnecessary hurt and pain down the road. But that's only possible when I know I am asexual, and not when I didn't even have a fucking clue that something's not normative about me FFS.

 

-------

 

RE: Abuse and Sex *Trigger Warning in spoiler describing what is or isn't rape*
 

Spoiler


It should be stated that while marital rape is a real thing, it's not just sex that one participant is uncomfortable with it. It's only rape when someone either can't consent, explicitly doesn't consent, or is physically incapable of getting out of the act. I know I have had sex where I felt molested and wanted to cry inside, but that wasn't rape because I was still physically capable of pushing my wife off and I didn't voice my dissent during/before it. That would be sexual abuse in a sense, but not rape.

 

Anyway, while no one is obliged to have sex and completely own their bodies, I find a slight amount of dispassionate views. I mean yes, not even our spouse is owed sex, but they will be hurt in that relationship too. I currently feel like shit precisely because of that. It might not be my "fault" in the liberal ethics sense, but it is my fault in the sense that causally speaking I am the one causing that harm and if I wasn't the one with her, she'd most likely be in a sexual relationship with a proper allosexual person that would make her a lot happier. I'm straying a bit away from my main point here, but just, be more compassionate. Like when someone's hurting whether it's in real life or on an internet forum, try to be helpful and empathize. Rights and entitlements are one thing; I have a right to never pay anything to charity ever, to sit behind my laptop all day, and never respond to any attempt for human communication by anyone ever, but doing the morally right and compassionate thing is another thing. If an asexual is an a mixed relationship and they don't want sex anymore, it's their right to do that, but they can also try working on their sex repulsion, make a compromise, or even just give emotional support should they be incapable or unwilling of those, even breakup as a right for everyone can be done aggressively with hate, anger and pain, or with compassion that makes adds a bit more comfort. Maybe it's my political and ethical philosophy leaking in and I'm reading into too much here, but seeing a focus on Ayn Rand-style individualism just pains me.

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GoneForGood

CW: response to "RE: Abuse and Sex *Trigger Warning in spoiler describing what is or isn't rape*"

Spoiler

I would broaden that a bit to include that if someone has been programmed to believe that they don't have the right to refuse that it is still rape.

 

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ryn2
2 minutes ago, MakeLoveNotWar said:

CW: response to "RE: Abuse and Sex *Trigger Warning in spoiler describing what is or isn't rape*"

  Reveal hidden contents

I would broaden that a bit to include that if someone has been programmed to believe that they don't have the right to refuse that it is still rape.

 

Wouldn’t that depend on whether they were programmed by/on behalf of their partner, or programmed by their family/religion/culture/past partner(s)/etc.?

 

In the latter scenarios the current partner would probably not even know.

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GoneForGood
3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Wouldn’t that depend on whether they were programmed by/on behalf of their partner, or programmed by their family/religion/culture/past partner(s)/etc.?

 

In the latter scenarios the current partner would probably not even know.

Rape describes the offense, it does not have to in a single word describe the main person/system who did the actual wrong. I accept that many of the people who violated me did so without themselves understanding even that it was a violation. I still feel wronged.

 

I am realizing that we are getting off topic though. I don't really want to continue this, it would probably end up in Hot Box

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James121
19 hours ago, Ficto. said:

No one has a 'right' to have sex, for a start.

Everyone who is in a mature adult relationship has the right to expect that it will involve sex. If I don’t have ‘the right’ to believe this then my wife has no right to believe that I will be faithful, thoughtful and loving.

 

ive said it before many times but this is exactly what refusing spouses always always hide behind and I’m afraid it’s worn very very thin.

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James121
13 hours ago, Philip027 said:

People don't always "just know"

But they at the very least suspect and take the gamble anyway leaving someone in a very s**t position.

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anisotrophic
7 minutes ago, James121 said:

ive said it before many times but this is exactly what refusing spouses always always hide behind and I’m afraid it’s worn very very thin.

No, it clearly makes some of them very unhappy to be a source of suffering for their partner.

 

At the heart of it may be a need for empathy with each other. It's not something that gets better simply by adjusting the "sex frequency" dial.

 

3 minutes ago, James121 said:

But they at the very least suspect and take the gamble anyway leaving someone in a very s**t position.

No, it's nearly impossible to suspect asexuality if you've never heard of it.

 

@James121 out of curiosity, does your partner self-identify as ace? Are you talking to each other and it with empathy?

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James121
5 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

No, it's nearly impossible to suspect asexuality if you've never heard of it.

A person suffering from cancer often knows that they don’t feel well before any diagnosis.

My point being that you don’t have to know exactly what’s up to know that something is up.

 

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ryn2
2 minutes ago, James121 said:

ive said it before many times but this is exactly what refusing spouses always always hide behind and I’m afraid it’s worn very very thin.

Perhaps for you it is that simple but many posters here report only wanting/benefiting from sex where there is mutual desire... so “being entitled to” sex that doesn’t carry that with it is of no use (or worse) to them.

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ryn2
25 minutes ago, James121 said:

But they at the very least suspect and take the gamble anyway leaving someone in a very s**t position.

Ah, if only the aces had all known you can tell them what they think/feel before they realize it themselves!  They could have consulted with you ages ago and saved everyone a lot of misery.

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James121
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Ah, if only the aces had all known you can tell them what they think/feel before they realize it themselves!  They could have consulted with you ages ago and saved everyone a lot of misery.

Are you telling me that aces who (according to this very forum) are living in a world where sex is absolutely everywhere, didn’t think it was odd that they were either repulsed by sex or simply never wanted sex in their lives couldn’t have made the assertion that......something isn’t quite right?

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ryn2
10 minutes ago, James121 said:

A person suffering from cancer often knows that they don’t feel well before any diagnosis.

My point being that you don’t have to know exactly what’s up to know that something is up.

 

I don’t think this is a valid comparison.  Someone who is ill may know things are wrong before diagnosis because they have their own baseline state to compare to.  That’s what “something wrong” means in this setting - “normally I feel x, but now I feel y.”

 

Someone who has been in past

compatible relationships can measure a new one against them... but someone who has never been in a compatible

relationship before has no baseline to compare to.  They feel just like they always feel.  As far as they know everything is normal.

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ryn2
3 minutes ago, James121 said:

Are you telling me that aces who (according to this very forum) are living in a world where sex is absolutely everywhere, didn’t think it was odd that they were either repulsed by sex or simply never wanted sex in their lives couldn’t have made the assertion that......something isn’t quite right?

That isn’t the experience most people in mixed relationships posting here report, though.  Many thought they wanted sex until they tried it, and then thought (as we’re all told) they hadn’t found the right person or there was a technique or medical issue.

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anisotrophic
8 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

They feel just like they always feel.  As far as they know everything is normal.

 It is like this. Recognizing one doesn't experience sexual attraction is very difficult if you've never experienced it. I know when I'm not attracted to someone -- because I experience attraction.

 

And someone can muddle along and follow the "rules" and do things that sexual people do, not realizing they aren't experiencing the underlying thing.

 

I think it's like being colorblind and never having heard of colorblindness.

 

Once someone realizes, if they do, yes I think they should communicate with empathy.

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ryn2
43 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

 It is like this. Recognizing one doesn't experience sexual attraction is very difficult if you've never experienced it. I know when I'm not attracted to someone -- because I experience attraction.

 

And someone can muddle along and follow the "rules" and do things that sexual people do, not realizing they aren't experiencing the underlying thing.

 

I think it's like being colorblind and never having heard of colorblindness.

 

Once someone realizes, if they do, yes I think they should communicate with empathy.

...and these are the kinds of things that don’t interfere with childhood or even adult life to a degree that anyone intervenes on your behalf, meaning you don’t notice you’re outside the norm until you start comparing experiences with others, in real, honest detail.  Sex doesn’t tend to lend itself to that kind of discussion for a lot of people, and the majority of relationships are heterosexual so you can’t even really compare with your own partner.

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Serran
7 hours ago, anisotropic said:

@Serran @Sally

 

I did not use the word "abuse".

 

You responded with a lot of text saying it is not "abuse".

 

This conversation seems to be obsessed with that particular word choice -- which is not one I made or used 

You did not use it, but Susanna did a few posts above you. And you responded to those of us against said word choice with "it is trauma", and "I dont know why we are comparing it to rape" (when someone literally did that a few posts above, implying it is as bad). And now you are calling arguing against her post a strawman...

 

So, it comes off as either you missed the post completely and think we are arguing its not painful - which no one did, in fact I said it is painful and listed two examples of how relationships have caused deep depression in my family alone and Sally has years of a partner being in pain causing her to have sex she didnt want so she gets it is painful - or as defending Susanna's post. Which is why I responded the way I did to your reply. 

 

 

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Serran
35 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

...and these are the kinds of things that don’t interfere with childhood or even adult life to a degree that anyone intervenes on your behalf, meaning you don’t notice you’re outside the norm until you start comparing experiences with others, in real, honest detail.  Sex doesn’t tend to lend itself to that kind of discussion for a lot of people, and the majority of relationships are heterosexual so you can’t even really compare with your own partner.

And even when you do talk about it with people, they just tell you that its normal to be bored until you know what you like, you need to find someone you like more, you just need to experiment more, etc. So you get told you are just going through normal growing pains of learning sex. Thats what confused me. Everyone I talked to, including potential partners, brushed it off as you just need to have better sex and learn what you like. 

 

Which... I guess in the end it was right, in a way. But, the problem was I needed a partner that was OK with no sex if I didnt want and to never have to do penetrative sex. Which, isnt really what they meant. They meant I needed to learn a position or kink to make PiV or oral fun. Those will never be fun to me. Even after finding someone that turns me on and I want, I dont want that. So I am still incompatible with most people and hit the lottery finding someone who also doesnt like that stuff. 

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ryn2
15 minutes ago, Serran said:

And even when you do talk about it with people, they just tell you that its normal to be bored until you know what you like, you need to find someone you like more, you just need to experiment more, etc. So you get told you are just going through normal growing pains of learning sex. Thats what confused me. Everyone I talked to, including potential partners, brushed it off as you just need to have better sex and learn what you like. 

Exactly!  And I suppose given the odds that normally IS the explanation.

 

Add to that how there’s a lot of shame (and then blame) about “failing” at sex, especially for men, and it’s pretty impossible to get a useful answer.

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GoneForGood
Just now, ryn2 said:

Exactly!  And I suppose given the odds that normally IS the explanation.

 

Add to that how there’s a lot of shame (and then blame) about “failing” at sex, especially for men, and it’s pretty impossible to get a useful answer.

It happens to women also, at least it did to me

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ryn2
3 minutes ago, MakeLoveNotWar said:

It happens to women also, at least it did to me

Oh, definitely.

 

It actually happened to me really recently.  My former partner had ED issues from the beginning of our long relationship; he has now decided the actual issue was that I’m ace (which I’m probably not) and therefore my lack of desire for him (that part’s true, ace or no) ruined him sexually.  He’s mainly angry that “all those years I [he] took the blame” (internally; I was worried about it because he was but I never criticized him about it or blamed anyone) “for something that was your [my] fault all along.”

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Serran
17 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Exactly!  And I suppose given the odds that normally IS the explanation.

 

Add to that how there’s a lot of shame (and then blame) about “failing” at sex, especially for men, and it’s pretty impossible to get a useful answer.

Omg yes. Everyone blamed either me never masturbating or watching porn (you have to learn what you like then teach them) or my partners just being bad at sex. No one mentioned the option of some people just dont like those activities... 

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ryn2
24 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Oh, definitely.

 

It actually happened to me really recently.  My former partner had ED issues from the beginning of our long relationship; he has now decided the actual issue was that I’m ace (which I’m probably not) and therefore my lack of desire for him (that part’s true, ace or no) ruined him sexually.  He’s mainly angry that “all those years I [he] took the blame” (internally; I was worried about it because he was but I never criticized him about it or blamed anyone) “for something that was your [my] fault all along.”

(and in fairness to him there are people posting AVEN who might agree)

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ryn2
17 minutes ago, Serran said:

Omg yes. Everyone blamed either me never masturbating or watching porn (you have to learn what you like then teach them) or my partners just being bad at sex. No one mentioned the option of some people just dont like those activities... 

Yes!  And if that doesn’t help it’s

either that there’s something wrong with you or you need to find a lover that’s less selfish.

 

No one ever suggests or realizes that it might not be a problem at all, just like not liking escargot or milk chocolate is not a problem.

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