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InquisitivePhilosopher
4 hours ago, James121 said:

It sure is. Mainly because I don’t have the wool pulled over my eyes too easily.

Is this a comment meant to imply that everyone, of all sexual orientations--who grew up having difficulty discovering their sexual orientation--had the "wool pulled over [their] eyes too easily," as though it's a personal, character flaw? Many members, here, grew up abused. Research and articles from psychologists, doctors, etc., show that it's common for many who grew up abused to be confused as to what their sexual orientation is, due to being abused (heterosexuals, included).

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
2 hours ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

Is this a comment meant to imply that everyone, of all sexual orientations--who grew up having difficulty discovering their sexual orientation--had the "wool pulled over [their] eyes too easily," as though it's a personal, character flaw? Many members, here, grew up abused. Research and articles from psychologists, doctors, etc., show that it's common for many who grew up abused to be confused as to what their sexual orientation is, due to being abused (heterosexuals, included).

I read his comment as him asserting his ability to see through our lies and our bullshittery, pretty much. None of us (nor any gay person who thought they were straight for years) could truly have been confused about our sexual orientations because all kids have boyfriends and girlfriends from about the age of 6, right? So there's NO WAY by 'marriageable' age (which is like anywhere from 18 onwards I'm guessing?) we could have possibly not actually known we were getting into something that wouldn't work out in the long run due to sexual incompatibility. That's just not possible so it must all be lies and intentional deceit. That's the only possible explanation.

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Telecaster68
2 hours ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

Is this a comment meant to imply that everyone, of all sexual orientations--who grew up having difficulty discovering their sexual orientation--had the "wool pulled over [their] eyes too easily," as though it's a personal, character flaw? Many members, here, grew up abused. Research and articles from psychologists, doctors, etc., show that it's common for many who grew up abused to be confused as to what their sexual orientation is, due to being abused (heterosexuals, included).

I think James means that it seems like some asexuals are emphasising the 'I was confused' element of their experience to let themselves off the 'I knew something was different but refuse to take responsibility for the consequences of ignoring it' more easily.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

I think James means that it seems like some asexuals are emphasising the 'I was confused' element of their experience to let themselves off the 'I knew something was different but refuse to take responsibility for the consequences of ignoring it' more easily.

Which is the close to the same statement Ficti is reacting to... because by claiming that (and not even being willing to accept that it’s “some,” not “all”) he’s invalidating the experiences of every ace and sexual who had posted here explaining how and why they *didn’t* know “something was different.”

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Telecaster68

Sometimes people don't remember things accurately, or frame things to minimise their own cognitive dissonance. We can't know what's going on with everyone's subjective experience, but when their account of what was going on seems, uh, differently plausible, I think voicing skepticism is reasonable. 

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ryn2

Voicing skepticism is reasonable, but refusing to accept that anyone offering an even slightly different explanation - from their personal experiences, and those of their close friends - could be telling the truth rather than hiding behind something is a bit insulting.  Why would every person who has been confused in some way about their sexuality be remembering wrong/excusing their own behavior whereas those who report not having not been confused must be remembering correctly? 

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Small Horse

I wonder why a lot of people even bother to get married if sex is the most important part. Sexual passion tends to die down after awhile because it's hard to keep things fresh and thrilling, and then once that's gone, what are you left with? If sex is taken out of the picture, you should still have somebody you romantically love or even a very close friend. Marriage for life is just a very odd concept to me because most people fall out of love due to various reasons. If you don't, you're a rare, blessed couple that happen to be selfless and accepts each other's flaws.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
36 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Sometimes people don't remember things accurately, or frame things to minimise their own cognitive dissonance. We can't know what's going on with everyone's subjective experience, but when their account of what was going on seems, uh, differently plausible, I think voicing skepticism is reasonable. 

Well I've been recording my unfolding experience here (in great detail) since 2013, and @Serran and @Ceebs.have been doing so even longer. We've all pretty much been giving real-time updates as our lives unfold (give or take months spent away from here at times). So it's not like we were misremembering things as they as they happened to us.

 

Were we just interpreting our experiences inaccurately do you think? Maybe a couple of sexual men here know far better than we do what we were experiencing as we discovered our sexualities? :)

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ryn2
34 minutes ago, Small Horse said:

Marriage for life is just a very odd concept to me because most people fall out of love due to various reasons. If you don't, you're a rare, blessed couple that happen to be selfless and accepts each other's flaws.

Reasons vary, I’m sure, but people are sometimes overly optimistic that they will be among the rare, blessed couples you mention above.

 

I actually raised this concern with my former partner before we got married, as I had divorced years prior shortly out of college/uni and knew that the odds for second marriages are not favorable, but he was certain we would fall into the pool of lucky ones.  Ironically he was also the one no longer willing to settle for an existence that required accepting flaws a couple of decades later.

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Winged Whisperer

I personally think if people adopted a more open and polyamorous conception of love and marriage, we'd see far fewer divorces. I don't mean more people be polyamorous or have open marriages (though I guess that's the end point, and what will happen with this), but to think of the concept of love as it is in polyamory; that it's flexible, sharable, and about being happy for the happiness of the other person (compersion).

 

Ok, that was a bit of a weird tangent...

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Winged Whisperer said:

I personally think if people adopted a more open and polyamorous conception of love and marriage, we'd see far fewer divorces. I don't mean more people be polyamorous or have open marriages (though I guess that's the end point, and what will happen with this), but to think of the concept of love as it is in polyamory; that it's flexible, sharable, and about being happy for the happiness of the other person (compersion).

 

Ok, that was a bit of a weird tangent...

It’s a helpful approach if it works for everyone involved, but I’m not sure it’s something people can think themselves into.  From what I have seen, some people do experience love as (boundless,) flexible and shareable.  Others experience it for one person at a time and can only experience it that way, even when it is inconvenient for them to do so.

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Serran
5 hours ago, Ficto. said:

I read his comment as him asserting his ability to see through our lies and our bullshittery, pretty much. None of us (nor any gay person who thought they were straight for years) could truly have been confused about our sexual orientations because all kids have boyfriends and girlfriends from about the age of 6, right? So there's NO WAY by 'marriageable' age (which is like anywhere from 18 onwards I'm guessing?) we could have possibly not actually known we were getting into something that wouldn't work out in the long run due to sexual incompatibility. That's just not possible so it must all be lies and intentional deceit. That's the only possible explanation.

Totally. Every 18 year old knows themselves well enough to know exactly what they want in life. :lol:

 

Man, I wish life was black & white like some people are saying it is. How easy would it be if you knew exactly what you wanted sexually by 6 years old? I mean, man, I would have saved myself years of painful experiences and confusion if I had just known that's how it worked. If my 19 year old self had been able to know the multiple older, married for 10-20 years, sexually experienced women didn't really say the words coming out of their mouth and didn't tell me nothing was wrong with at the age of 19 not really being into sex with my boyfriends. I mean, golly, I must just be misremembering every conversation I ever had. Including the one I had last week with my co-workers in the break room about them spending so much effort avoiding sex with their husbands, barely ever having it, only doing it as a reward for them for cleaning the house or building something. 

 

Maybe I don't even remember anything in my life. Maybe I'm not real. Maybe this is the Matrix and all my memories are fake.

 

If only I had some strong, heterosexual cis man to tell me what to think. 

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James121
9 hours ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

Is this a comment meant to imply that everyone, of all sexual orientations--who grew up having difficulty discovering their sexual orientation--had the "wool pulled over [their] eyes too easily," as though it's a personal, character flaw? Many members, here, grew up abused. Research and articles from psychologists, doctors, etc., show that it's common for many who grew up abused to be confused as to what their sexual orientation is, due to being abused (heterosexuals, included).

No

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James121
14 hours ago, anisotropic said:

@James121 why don't you just leave? To get back to that question. You seem bitter enough.

Leave aven or leave my marriage? I have no inclination to do either. I love my wife and my children. 

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James121
11 hours ago, Ceebs. said:

Because he likes creating a big spectacle of his misery instead of doing something about it, it seems.

That’s a little unfair. I could say the same thing about asexuals or gay people when they come out. It just wouldn’t be right to though. People are entitled to opinions and I have mine.

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ryn2

Good point, serran!  I must be totally misremembering the breakroom conversation from yesterday where one woman from another department said her husband was cut off as of last summer until he cleans up the basement, and that he’d better get going because at this rate he would lose his treasured Birthday Sex.  When the other four women (n/i me; I was just washing fruit at the sink) laughed and said “you go, sister” and “hear, hear,” they must have been telling her they didn’t agree.  There’s no way someone listening to them talk could miss the fact that they value sex and consider essential glue in their relationships!

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James121
7 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

I think James means that it seems like some asexuals are emphasising the 'I was confused' element of their experience to let themselves off the 'I knew something was different but refuse to take responsibility for the consequences of ignoring it' more easily.

This is pretty much what I think but notice that any opinion I give here is shot down with a ‘victim mentality the world has wronged me’ type of response.

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ryn2
Just now, James121 said:

People are entitled to opinions and I have mine.

No one is arguing your right to have an opinion.  It’s when you try to use your opinion to claim that others did not have the experiences they report having that people take issue. 

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ryn2
Just now, James121 said:

a ‘victim mentality the world has wronged me’ type of response.

How are “it took me well into adulthood to fully understand my sexuality,” “I didn’t realize I was gay until I was 30,” or “I’m middle-aged and still not sure of my sexuality” “victim mentality” or “the world has wronged me” reponses?

 

Ironically, ”I was bait-and-switched by an ace who masqueraded as sexual and must have known better” actually falls much closer to both categories.

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James121
Just now, ryn2 said:

No one is arguing your right to have an opinion.  It’s when you try to use your opinion to claim that others did not have the experiences they report having that people take issue. 

Well we are on a sticky wicket here. I don’t believe that asexuals ‘didn’t realise’ in every case where they marry a sexual who ends up suffering. I have not pulled out individual cases and told the author of the comment that they are a liar. Some people have **chosen** to take it that way so that they can disagree with me. 

Here is a comparison that may help you all. 

My wife used to turn down sex because she had a headache. It was her ‘go to excuse’. There will have been occasions where she had a headache. There will also have been occasions where she did not but used it to excuse herself. 

Would I call my wife a liar when she says she has a headache....no.

if she has shown no sign of having a headache, not even looked in the direction of a headache tablet let alone considered swallowing one, not mentioned having a headache, am I entitled to believe she may be bull shitting. The answer is yes but that doesn’t mean I am calling out every person as a liar in such circumstances.

So for the record here is my view.

I will not call out any individual as a liar when they say this but....

I believe that the majority of cases the asexual knew damn well or was largely suspicious of ‘an issue’ but chose to go along with the relationship regardless.

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ryn2
6 minutes ago, James121 said:

I don’t believe that asexuals ‘didn’t realise’ in every case where they marry a sexual who ends up suffering.

I don’t think anyone has claimed that *no* asexual in this situation *ever* knew.

 

Some of your (and tele’s) statements and questions above have implied (or said outright) not just this, but that there’s no way *any* ace person could not know.

 

That’s a huge difference.  Like many posters (including me) have said above, yes, some people - including some aces - are jerks.  Others may have made what turned out to be poor choices.  No one is denying that.

 

It’s the extension of this to *all* asexuals, based on how it may well be true of some, that is a problem.

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ryn2
7 minutes ago, James121 said:

I believe that the majority of cases the asexual knew damn well or was largely suspicious of ‘an issue’ but chose to go along with the relationship regardless.

I don’t believe it’s the majority.  I believe there are cases where this is true, but more - probably many more, from the evidence and experiences people give here - cases where the ace (and probably the sexual as well) did not know at the time.

 

 

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ryn2

I guess I would extend that to people and relationships in general.  Certainly even in cultures that “marry for love” there are people - across all sexualities and genders - who marry instead, secretively, for personal gain.

 

Despite being a fairly cynical person I don’t personally believe those people are the overall majority.

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ryn2

 

24 minutes ago, James121 said:

My wife used to turn down sex because she had a headache. It was her ‘go to excuse’. There will have been occasions where she had a headache. There will also have been occasions where she did not but used it to excuse herself. 

We should probably all also keep in mind that - while there are people posting here whose partners self-identify as asexual - some of the sexuals posting have partners who *do not identify as ace*.  It’s possible that their partners are ace and don’t yet know it, or ace but label-averse.  It’s also possible, though, that their partners are sexuals who 1) are low-libido, 2) have become low-libido over time, 3) prioritize sex differently than they do, and/or 4) have lost attraction to/desire for sex with them.

 

In those latter cases, it’s entirely possible that the behaviors, motivation, and thought processes they know as “ace” from observing their “ace” spouses are not common to what aces experience at all.

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CBC

@James121 I do believe you've made your point by now. I understand where you're coming from and the emotions you feel, and I hope eventually you can channel that energy into finding a relationship that meets your needs. No one is ever entitled to sex with anyone else, but everyone is entitled to seek healthy, mutually fulfilling, loving relationships. Moving on is your responsibility. Repeatedly beating other people over the head with what you assume their motivation and experiences to be doesn't do much to help you achieve that.

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Skullery Maid

Whoa, OK, I was with my partner during her discovery so it's not a case of wistful nostalgia. She really didn't know. She's very sex positive, she worked in the sex industry, and she was young. Hadn't had a relationship last more than a year, and even asexuals get caught up in new relationship energy. Most of her exes ended up transitioning, meaning they were very uncomfortable with their bodies and also didn't want sex. After a lot of talks, she realized that she only had sex a couple times with each former girlfriend. A lot of times, it was her girlfriend who didn't want it, so she was never put in a position before me to examine it. She still doesn't identify as asexual, btw. 

 

As luck would have it, I have two of these stories... 

 

My ex and I were together for 8 years. She thought she was asexual and identified as such. We got together her senior year of college, and she had only had one girlfriend prior. No boyfriends. We had an open relationship for years, but I'm the only one who ever used it. Well, she turns 29 and meets a guy. Just a guy. She falls for him, realizes she's not asexual, she's very very much into heterosexual sex. She left me for him and they're still together ten years later. 

 

Neither of my partners had any responsibility to somehow discover these things before meeting me. No one owes that to another person. They discovered them when they discovered them... to suggest any other time than when it happened was even possible is to blatantly ignore the reality of someone's life. I'm happy that my ex finally learned what love is, what sexual desire is, and how they intermingle. It breaks my heart that she didn't feel that with me, but that's not her fault. That's not something that she did to me. That's just life doing its weird and winding road thing. 

 

People know what they know when they know it. There are no alternatives. 

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Sally
1 hour ago, James121 said:

I believe that the majority of cases the asexual knew damn well or was largely suspicious of ‘an issue’ but chose to go along with the relationship regardless.

Well, Telecaster believes that sexuals knew that most sexuals knew that asexuals were "pretending" about sex.  So they chose to go along with the relationship regardless.  

 

So I guess both parties were guilty of not being honest.   Because according to your "belief", this is a matter of guilt.

 

 

 

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Telecaster68

Well that's one interpretation of my position. I think what you're alluding to is that I'm pretty sure most sexuals experience a relationship with an asexual as a bit 'off' right from the start, and unless they address that right off, are just as wishful in their thinking as their partners. The difference is that we (sexuals) are aware, on some level, of a disconnect, and that this isn't a pattern in our relationships. I find it harder to believe asexuals are unaware of a disconnect of some sort, and that they don't notice a pattern. This isn't about sexuality so much as cognition and reflection. 

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CBC

I would assume that perhaps many asexuals aren't aware of the disconnect immediately precisely because sexual connection isn't innate to them in the first place and they don't spend much time thinking about it. And then they start to become aware of the importance only once their lack of desire begins to cause relationship problems.

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ryn2
16 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I find it harder to believe asexuals are unaware of a disconnect of some sort, and that they don't notice a pattern. This isn't about sexuality so much as cognition and reflection. 

This tends to present as “sex drops off over time” or “we argued a lot about sex before we broke up.”  These are both things that aren’t unusual in relationships (regardless of orientation).  When you bring either of them up to other people, much like others have said above with regards to “the sex is not rocking my world,” they tell you - and this makes sense given what sexuals here have said about a drop off in desire being a sign something significant is wrong/a partner has fallen out of love - that often happens as a relationship is failing.

 

If your relationships are few, mostly under a couple of years, a bit unhealthy, and/or embattled for other reasons, I think it’s easy to miss asexuality as a possible cause.

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