Would you leave

[Guest]

5 hours ago, nanogretchen4 said:

Light02, it's super true to say that asexuals haven't put as much work into their community as gay people have. What is super insulting is being all jealous of the results of the work gay people have done without acknowledging the work.

No one is saying they're jealous of gay people. They're (correctly) saying that there are just naturally a lot more gay people around than asexual people, and even if the ace community gained more visibility, there'd still be more gay people around than ace people. Take it from someone who has actively tried both gay dating and ace dating online, where there are millions of people to select from (unlike in real life where the dating pools are much smaller). 

 

I have no idea why you think there are so many asexuals around the place. And it doesn't help that at least half the people who ID as ace on dating sites etc do actually want sex due to no one even being able to understand how asexuality should be defined. 

 

Believe me, as someone who has been actively involved in the online dating scene (which is a LOT more varied and progressive than anything you'll find in 'real life' due to a large larger source pool) there are very, very few people actively seeking romance who also don't want sex to be a part of that relationship (and that's regardless whether they define themselves as ace or just celibate). I've come across maybe 8 people like that in the 5 or so years I've been using OkCupid. And what guarantee is it that any of these people will be compatible with each other just because they don't want sex? There is a lot more to a relationship than sex even if neither people want sex - that still doesn't mean they're compatible.

 

Then you get mixed relationships like @Chimeric's in which both partners are very happy. So it does actually happen. 

 

And as has been explained many times by many people, unidentified asexuals are often told their fears are normal, that they'll start liking sex eventually, etc etc, so they go into sexual relationships assuming that what they're experiencing is normal. Hell, I even started thinking sex is painful for *all* women, and other women are just better at faking than I am. It didn't cross my mind that there was something physically wrong with me (and a doctor had told me I was fine!) I just assumed what was going on was something I had to put up with for the price of love. Many people come to that conclusion so end up stuck in sexually incompatible relationships assuming what's happening is normal. 

 

Yes it would be wonderful if there could be compatible people all over the place, just waiting around the corner to sweep each other off their feet. But it just doesn't work like that. Especially not for someone who doesn't like sex but doesn't even know that's weird or different because everyone around them is telling them it's normal and they just need to keep having sex until they learn to enjoy it.

 

19 minutes ago, James121 said:

Ok I’ll change it. 

 

1) cheating

2) planning to leave

3) unhappy

4) lying to you 

I can guarantee you that @Chimeric is none of those things and the fact is, there could be many sexuals out there like her who just haven't ended up on AVEN because they don't need somewhere to go to bitch, having nothing to bitch about. We have actually had other happy sexual partners come through here, they just don't stick around for long for ...very obvious reasons. The negativity and brainwashing here would be difficult for anyone in a happy relationship to want to stick around for because the unhappy sexuals insist there MUST be something wrong... You can't possible be truly happy in a relationship with an ace. (And sorry to drag you into it Chimeric, you don't need to comment or anything.. I just like using you as an example because you're someone relatively active, as opposed to using someone who hightailed it out of here ages ago like you and I both know we should do before we go insane)

 

[nanogretchen4]

The fact that some people got into their first mixed relationship before realizing that they didn't want sex is irrelevant to anyone who knows they are asexual and is currently single. Anyone in that category who is seeking out sexuals to date knows exactly what they are doing and is fully responsible for their actions, period. Don't you think the low number of asexuals you found on asexual dating sites has anything to do with the high number of asexuals who are looking for sexuals instead of looking for each other? I think the attitude of the asexual community is a more important factor than the absolute number of asexuals. Regardless, dating sexuals who don't give enthusiastic informed consent from day one is not an acceptable alternative. Sexuals were not put on this earth to sacrifice their own longterm happiness to save asexuals from having to work.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, nanogretchen4 said:

The fact that some people got into their first mixed relationship before realizing that they didn't want sex

No, they are told (repeatedly) 'he just wasn't the right one, keep trying!' 'he just wasn't good at sex, maybe the next guy will be better' etc. And the fact is, that's sometimes correct!! There are quite a few people here now who concluded they were ace after having many sexually unhappy relationships, even very long term  ones (Serrans marriage was like 9 years!) only to find in their late 20s or even their 30s that they CAN enjoy and desire sex, they really did just have to keep trying. So the advice isn't necessarily even wrong in all cases. But how can one KNOW that without getting into the relationships and having the experiences?? Can't you see how flawed your black-and-white thinking is because of all of this?"oh you didn't like sex with that one guy or girl. Don't ever get in a relationship again". If that was the case people like me, or @Serran or @Ceebs. would have never known we're not actually ace! But that took YEARS of sex we didn't enjoy before we could work that out, decades in some cases. And no one is intentionally manipulating sexual partners, we were just having relationships and assuming that what we were experiencing was normal because that's what everyone was telling us! Even doctors!!

 

5 hours ago, nanogretchen4 said:

Don't you think the low number of asexuals you found on asexual dating sites has anything to do with the high number of asexuals who are looking for sexuals instead of looking for each other?

No. There are just very few people around who are seeking love but don't want sex to be a part of that at all, ever, because that's extremely rare. I say this as someone who has been actively seeking these types of people (whether they identify as ace or not) for years. They're just really not out there to any great extent. My dating pool has opened up a bit now that I know I could potentially enjoy some forms of sex, definitely. But when you're seeking a totally sexless relationship there really just aren't many people out there seeking that. Unidentified aces almost exclusively aren't even aware that's what they want because they're told by everyone else that eventually they'll learn to love sex, so they automatically assume they must be a regular sexual person who just hasn't met the right person yet. That's just life.

 

5 hours ago, nanogretchen4 said:

Regardless, dating sexuals who don't give enthusiastic conformed consent from day one is not an acceptable alternative. Sexuals were not put on this earth to sacrifice their own longterm happiness to save asexuals from having to work.

You seem confused about how relationships work. Almost NO ONE gets into a relationship knowing if they are going to be fully sexually compatible or not (or compatible in other areas). You have to experience being in the relationship first to know if it will work long term or not though. Asexuals (or people who haven't enjoyed sex in the past) aren't somehow manipulating sexual people into relationships to force them into celibacy though. Sexuals are often pretty enthusiastic if you tell them 'i haven't enjoyed sex in the past' because they are SURE they'll be the one who will change it for you. And while the honeymoon phase lasts it can be a LOT easier to enjoy it. But even two fully sexual people often don't realise their sexual incompatibilities until after that honeymoon phase has passed. Just because two people like sex doesn't mean they'll be sexually compatible long term but you can only find that out by actually being IN the relationship. And as myself and everyone else keeps saying, for many who haven't liked sex in the past we are told the next one might be different so we have to keep trying. And in some cases that even turns out to be true.

 

I have no idea why I'm even bothering typing anymore though because you've proven you have no real interest in understanding how these things actually work in real life. You want it to be like the dream world in your head so don't care what any of the people with actual experience have to say. 

[Philip027]

Quote

This is one of the worst things a couple can do but thankfully it’s largely outdated and quite rare these days.

Maybe rarer, but not to the point where I'd say it's rare.  It's still a fairly common sentiment I run into.  I imagine that if I were to stick with certain religious crowds, I'd encounter it more, because it's largely a morals/values thing that often gets lumped into religion.  But even outside of religion, I still encounter it.

 

Quote

I have no idea why I'm even bothering typing anymore though because you've proven you have no real interest in understanding how these things actually work in real life. You want it to be like the dream world in your head so don't care what any of the people with actual experience have to say. 

Yep.  That's why I've given up, anyway.  Like I said, it's in one ear and out the other.  Some people are just so busy insisting that asexuals are villains pushing this villainous Agenda™ that they aren't willing to actually listen or acknowledge any sort of alternate possible explanations.

 

You can lead a horse to the water, but you can't make him drink.

[James121]

11 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Some people are just so busy insisting that asexuals are villains pushing this villainous Agenda™

I’m not we see you all as villains but nor do we see you as the victims that many of you portray yourself as.

[ryn2]

2 hours ago, Serran said:

Incorrect. It is illegal in 20 states, not even half. Many cities have their own laws within the states. And Trump recently removed title IX protection (largely) for many gender and sexual minorities.. so that hurt schools a lot as it was the main protection in schools...

 

And housing laws are harder to find protection for, so even when you find protection from firing, you still often can be legally evicted for it. 

 

So yeah. As someone who is hiding the truth of her relationship and cant even go on honest dates with her wife in public cause being non-het cis is a "we dont think you should be working with kids" level offense in her state... even forcing a trans teacher to make a public apology for asking the kids to use their pronoun (Ms/Mr etc in title )cause it didnt match birth sex...our legal protections leave a lot to be desired. I tell my coworkers I have a husband. 

Ah, okay.  I thought the EEO part was more widespread.  Certainly not impressive.

[Winged Whisperer]

40 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Maybe rarer, but not to the point where I'd say it's rare.  It's still a fairly common sentiment I run into.  I imagine that if I were to stick with certain religious crowds, I'd encounter it more, because it's largely a morals/values thing that often gets lumped into religion.  But even outside of religion, I still encounter it.

Not even that. Despite living in a rather religious environment, me and my wife were irreligious and attempted sex numerous times before marriage and it never really worked out. But there are other factors too. Like we got married kinda early in our relationship after just 2 years of dating. That wasn't nearly enough time to figure out what's actually going on especially when we both lacked even the most basic of sex ed.

 

And to those pushing  the idea that asexuals should only ever date other asexuals, like have you considered any other implications? The comparison with gays falls flat, because while gays are attracted to other people of their gender, as allosexuals, other gays and the idea of being desired for sex and vice verse is part of the attraction. Or in simpler words, other gays are more attractive to them on an almost instinctual level. But asexuals just don't do anything for each other. Asexuals aren't actively attracted to NO-SEX, no, they're just not attracted to sex as an activity. An asexual might rationally prefer a relationship with someone who's also asexual as it would not hinder their asexuality. That's a conscious positive, but attraction doesn't happen there. There's no subconscious boon to a potential love interest to be asexual for another asexual, and ALL naturally formed relationships start with subconscious attraction. You don't get to choose really who you fall in love with. The rules for romantic attraction are still there for the romantic asexuals. And as Ficto said, choosing a partner consists of a lot more than just sexual compatibility. I know back when I didn't know about asexuality, despite half the world population being in my initial pool of potential candidates, I already felt like I would be alone forever because I felt I could never find someone who could be compatible with me and love me. I mean sure part of that was a confidence and self esteem issue back then, but even now, I don't imagine I could get into a relationship with anyone I'd want. I'd imagine it to still be a hard work. And you want me to limit that potential candidate pool to "literally nobody you know or suspect". And I'm not speaking on my on behalf because I'm married and intend to continue it for at least as long as I can, but consider someone like me who would be single. That's just an impossible task AND goes against that person's basic human nature. Again, you don't really choose who you fall in love with. You can only choose to act on it or not. And sure, communicate at the start of a relationship is great advice, but don't be the moral arbiter here demanding stupid stuff that goes against human psychology.

[Ceebs]

4 hours ago, Ficto. said:

If that was the case people like me, or @Serran or @Ceebs. would have never known we're not actually ace!

Absolutely. I had some vague sense that I wanted sex, except then when I had it with my partner, I felt shitty. I definitely remember assuming that I was either asexual and my occasional interest was something I just thought about that wasn't meant to pan out in reality in any way, or that I was so deeply fucked up about sex that there was no point in even trying to change that.

 

And then a friend of several years began showing interest in me. And I don't think either of us knew where it was headed or what was going on exactly, but it didn't take me long to realise, oh shit, this is so vastly different from what I was trying for before, and not only is it not awkward and scary and icky, it's innate and comfortable and amazing. If I'd resigned myself to the idea that meeting the right person wasn't a possibility whatsoever and just shut down, holy fuck I'd be miserable. I hated the way I felt as a potential asexual, tbh. Really hated it. It made me sad and kind of bitter, and it made me not like myself in yet another way. And lo and behold, I met that right person, the person I want to share my life with, and it changed everything. I'm not asexual, I'm not fucked up about sex and irreparably damaged. I'm gay. Simple as that.

 

The idea that some people completely shut down that possibility of not having met someone they connect with that way is kind of sad. It's foolish, too. But hey, you only limit yourself and rob yourself of happiness in the end, so if that's someone's deal... I guess whatever. 

[Guest]

I'm with Ficto... I don't like to suggest that asexuals not date sexuals because I think life is far more complicated than that. People change. All people, all the time. You know, I could be wrong about what I like sexually at this point in my life. Who knows. Most of my experimentation happened by the time I was 21... I just turned 40. Could be I'd discover new things about myself. 

 

Besides, something can be a deal breaker without it also being a gatekeeper. Finances destroy relationships, but that doesn't mean we all trade tax returns on first dates. 

[James121]

5 hours ago, Skullery Maid said:

I'm with Ficto... I don't like to suggest that asexuals not date sexuals because I think life is far more complicated than that. People change. All people, all the time. You know, I could be wrong about what I like sexually at this point in my life. Who knows. Most of my experimentation happened by the time I was 21... I just turned 40. Could be I'd discover new things about myself. 

 

Besides, something can be a deal breaker without it also being a gatekeeper. Finances destroy relationships, but that doesn't mean we all trade tax returns on first dates. 

No quite right but if someone very financially stable dates someone who is a bankrupt, jobless ex gambling addict, I think they deserve to know what they maybe getting themselves in for.

[Guest]

Just now, James121 said:

No quite right but if someone very financially stable dates someone who is a bankrupt, jobless ex gambling addict, I think they deserve to know what they maybe getting themselves in for.

Well, what are we talking about here? I agree that asexuals should be honest, but that doesn't mean they can't still date sexuals, and I don't think it has to come up on a first date. 

[James121]

4 minutes ago, Skullery Maid said:

Well, what are we talking about here? I agree that asexuals should be honest, but that doesn't mean they can't still date sexuals, and I don't think it has to come up on a first date. 

I disagree. If an asexual who never wants sex goes on a date it should be made abundantly clear what their boundaries are.

[Chihiro]

On 1/8/2019 at 1:02 PM, Sally said:

If people want to reply to something you said, that's why quotes are used.  That has nothing to do with whether you're following the thread or not.   Your demand seems kind

of odd.  

Sally, you can still reply by addressing me like I am doing now but without the about quote. I have seen many people do that here. Also, its not that uncommon of a request- people who post pics have requested not to be quoted.

 

Anyway, doesn't matter anymore. I am deleting my prev posts which were clearly offtopic and irrelevant and won't talk about any of this anymore.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, James121 said:

I disagree. If an asexual who never wants sex goes on a date it should be made abundantly clear what their boundaries are.

So before someone learns your last name, what you do for a living, etc you should tell them you dont want sex? Seems an odd thing to just pop out on a first date when neither of you knows if you even want to complete the 2-3 hour dinner date in the first place, let alone ever see each other again. 

 

If you decide OK this person seems cool , I want to continue dating the person... yeah reveal any and all major potential deal breakers so either side can decide to not invest. 

[James121]

30 minutes ago, Serran said:

So before someone learns your last name, what you do for a living, etc you should tell them you dont want sex? Seems an odd thing to just pop out on a first date when neither of you knows if you even want to complete the 2-3 hour dinner date in the first place, let alone ever see each other again. 

 

If you decide OK this person seems cool , I want to continue dating the person... yeah reveal any and all major potential deal breakers so either side can decide to not invest. 

Pretty much yes. Why wouldn’t you reveal what may well be an immediate deal breaker? Why would you continue dating them without saying something.

 

This is exactly what some of us sexuals have been complaining about! Stealth mode which then gets excused along the line. 

 

If dated a woman and i was gay, I think I’d tell her that I have sex with men!

[Philip027]

Quote

Pretty much yes. Why wouldn’t you reveal what may well be an immediate deal breaker?

Because most people looking for a serious relationship rather than just a casual hookup typically won't already be broaching the subject of fucking each other the first time they meet, because it's generally viewed as tasteless and unclassy.  Usually that's saved for after at least some sort of "getting to know you" period.

 

Also, few people want to spend their first dates going over all the stuff they do / won't do in the event one of them might be a deal breaker to the other person.  It's a date, not a job interview.  It's kind of unromantic and usually just repels the other person even if they don't necessarily take issue with any of your habits or lack thereof.  (The people that DO do this very often don't actually want to be dating the other person and are desperately looking for any excuse they can for the other person to take issue with and reject them, so that they don't have to do it themselves.)

[ryn2]

3 hours ago, James121 said:

No quite right but if someone very financially stable dates someone who is a bankrupt, jobless ex gambling addict, I think they deserve to know what they maybe getting themselves in for.

If comparable financial stability is important to someone, they should ask about it... not leave it for their partners to “warn” them about.

[Philip027]

Yep

 

If something is that important to you to know before you even want to start dating somebody, the onus is on you to inquire about it.

 

It's not up to the other person to guess at every possible thing about them that could be a dealbreaker to you (or even worse, decide for you what would be dealbreakers or not... some people actually do this; it's rather immature and attempts to strip the other person's sense of agency)

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, James121 said:

Pretty much yes. Why wouldn’t you reveal what may well be an immediate deal breaker? Why would you continue dating them without saying something.

I think we got a little off track because I personally actually agree that if someone truly never wants sex and they're well aware of that, they should be up front about that and as far as I know, all the people I've met who know they don't want sex at all, ever, are up front about it.

 

But the issue is that unidentified asexuals almost never know they don't want sex because they've been told so often that they just need to keep dating until they can meet the 'right person' who will make them be able to enjoy it (and sometimes that even does happen!). That was the main issue before, it was that you were saying it's manipulative of aces to not be honest about their lack of sexual desire and others were trying to explain that unidentified aces really, truly don't know or understand that they truly don't want sex until they've often had quite a few relationships and/or a lot of sexual encounters, because often they truly believe if they just keep trying everything will eventually 'click' and they'll finally get what all the fuss is about when it comes to sex.

 

Also, during the honeymoon phase, sex is often a LOT easier and even more enjoyable for an unidentified ace, so they can be tricked by their biology into thinking they're a regular sexual person until the warm fuzzies wear off and they stop even thinking about sex at all, it's no longer fun or pleasurable, and they start getting frustrated that their partner still seems to want so much of it and they can't understand why. That's just not something that can be predicted unfortunately until you've been through a fair few relationships with the same outcome every time/

 

But all the people I have met who have truly decided they don't want sex, ever, are very open about it because they DO NOT want to accidentally end up with someone who will want sex from them. They want to avoid that so go out of their way to ensure that sex will never be on the table (or off the table, or anywhere else).

 

Just my experience though, as someone who has actively tried both celibate dating and sexual dating (so I possibly have more experience than some others here in the region of active total celibates who seek sexless romance, regardless of whether or not they identify as ace)

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Because most people looking for a serious relationship rather than just a casual hookup typically won't already be broaching the subject of fucking each other the first time they meet, because it's generally viewed as tasteless and unclassy.

Yeah I can see how that would be more difficult in 'in person' dating.. The beauty of online dating is that you can spell it all out very clearly in your profile so you know that anyone who messages you (as long as they have clearly read your profile) are still interested in you despite your lack of sexual desire. For me, if I was to try 'meat life' dating, then due to my weird needs I'd only seek friendships to start with anyway and during the course of friendships would reveal my weird sexuality.. if things develop into romance then I know the other person is already fully aware of how I am sexually so it won't be an issue, because if it was an issue we wouldn't pursue the romance in the first place.

 

Unfortunately it can't be like that for everyone but I honestly think people would suffer a lot less in relationships if they all adopted a 'friends first' policy while they get to know each other!

[nanogretchen4]

I'm so confused, Ficto. You wrote multiple walls of text about how I was wrong, wrong, wrong and you gave up in drama queen despair because apparently I just couldn't get it, and now you are agreeing with me. Is it better to reveal your sexual orientation before dating, or is it better if you are pretty sure of the other person's orientation but they would be very surprised to learn yours? Is it better to come out to your friends if you like to let things develop naturally, or is it better to remain closeted and lie in wait for friends to ask you out with no suspicion of your orientation? If someone asks you out without knowing your orientation and it seems like the incompatibility is going to be an issue, should you say, too bad, they asked me out and so I'm going to move this relationship along as fast as possible before they realize how big a problem this is? Or should you, as mentioned above, not pursue the relationship.

[ryn2]

What I took from Ficto’s posts is that there’s a marked difference between actively seeking out people to date (especially online) and meeting people (without that intent) and discovering you might want to date them.

 

If you know your orientation and are on a dating site, answering ads, going to singles events, or the like 1) being clear about your orientation makes sense and 2) conversations about sex and preferences are more likely to happen early/naturally.

 

Conversely, if you happen to take a liking to someone you meet at work, while volunteering, at a non-dating-related event, etc., the odds are a lot greater (at least where I live) that you will not have those conversations anywhere near as early.  Sex and sexual preferences are not normal conversation topics at work, at sporting events, while volunteering, etc.

 

I have friends I’ve known for almost 40 years where I can guess their orientation (not gay?) from the fact they married someone of the opposite sex, but we’ve never once talked about it.

[ryn2]

2 hours ago, Philip027 said:

Yep

 

If something is that important to you to know before you even want to start dating somebody, the onus is on you to inquire about it.

 

It's not up to the other person to guess at every possible thing about them that could be a dealbreaker to you (or even worse, decide for you what would be dealbreakers or not... some people actually do this; it's rather immature and attempts to strip the other person's sense of agency)

Agreed.  I hate someone telling me they’re going to stay away from me for my own good.  That’s up to me to decide!

[James121]

3 hours ago, Philip027 said:

Yep

 

If something is that important to you to know before you even want to start dating somebody, the onus is on you to inquire about it.

 

It's not up to the other person to guess at every possible thing about them that could be a dealbreaker to you (or even worse, decide for you what would be dealbreakers or not... some people actually do this; it's rather immature and attempts to strip the other person's sense of agency)

In which case someone who is dying and has 18 months to live could just....keep it all hush hush.

Someone who has been convicted of rape and domestic violence can just keep all buried.

Someone who used to be a man but is now a woman could keep quiet.

 

The reality is that these are all impact factors on whether or not someone will remain interested in dating you and it is for this very reason that myself and various other specials have never truly entertained the idea that asexuals just didn’t know what they were doing. There is a clear method of thinking here which demonstrates a keep it buried mentality because it will reduce my chances of successfully courting someone.

[James121]

3 hours ago, Philip027 said:

Because most people looking for a serious relationship rather than just a casual hookup typically won't already be broaching the subject of fucking each other the first time they meet, because it's generally viewed as tasteless and unclassy.  Usually that's saved for after at least some sort of "getting to know you" period.

I agree which is why someone wouldn’t ask which is what you have said in another reply they should be doing. Your message is very very unclear.

The onus is not on the asexual to be open and honest it’s on the sexual to ask but if they do ask it’s tasteless and conceivably just a hook up.

 

 

[James121]

1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

Agreed.  I hate someone telling me they’re going to stay away from me for my own good.  That’s up to me to decide!

How do you make an informed decision if you are not informed then?

[James121]

3 hours ago, ryn2 said:

If comparable financial stability is important to someone, they should ask about it... not leave it for their partners to “warn” them about.

Does that also work if you were previously convicted of rape?

Does it work if you have been given 2 years to live by a doctor?

Does this work if the only reason you sit there on the date as a woman is because you had your penis removed and a bunch of other operations to transform you.

Does it work if you are actually gay but you are seeking approval from your family by marrying someone from the opposite sex.

 

People need to be open and honest if the norm is something that you are not offering.

[ryn2]

9 minutes ago, James121 said:

There is a clear method of thinking here which demonstrates a keep it buried mentality because it will reduce my chances of successfully courting someone.

It’s not that.  It’s that someone who doesn’t care about thing x is much less likely to think about thing x or realize that thing x might be a big deal to other people.

[James121]

1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

It’s not that.  It’s that someone who doesn’t care about thing x is much less likely to think about thing x or realize that thing x might be a big deal to other people.

This conversation began because someone said that even if someone knows about thing x they are under zero obligation to disclose it.

[Telecaster68]

2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

It’s not that.  It’s that someone who doesn’t care about thing x is much less likely to think about thing x or realize that thing x might be a big deal to other people.

Hmmm. And yet, many asexuals complain about how society is oversexualised. I've never understood how these two things can co-exist.