James121

Would you leave

Recommended Posts

anisotropic

Sexual rejection combined with a lack of empathy/communication -> openly seeking sex elsewhere regardless of permission?

 

Context might matter, but I guess I have trouble seeing the second as more unreasonable than the first.

 

It seems likely to escalate to separation but, well... seems like it would be headed that direction already.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ryn2

I don’t have any issue with “regardless of permission” as long as it’s in the open.  “I’m not going to mention it because consequences” isn’t okay in my book.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
James121
10 hours ago, Philip027 said:

Also not necessarily correct.  My mom was totally blindsided when she get diagnosed with breast cancer.

 

Keep on with the offensive suggestions, though; we can keep score of how many groups of people you manage to piss off in this thread.

Hence the reason I used the word “often” bright guy.

Also, I didn’t write anything offensive at all so if you’re pissed off, you need to consider your tolerance levels of people who don’t share your precise opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
James121
10 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Agreed.  It’s the failure to *announce* it that makes it cheating.

How many people *announce* that sex is now limited to here and there or not at all? Probably less than 1%. 

Instead they say “I have a headache” or “insert the most ridiculous excuse right here”.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ryn2

That doesn’t change whether or not it’s right to cheat.  If the “ridiculous excuses” aren’t something the couple can discuss, and the relationship is at a serious “two wrongs make a right”/“an eye for an eye” point, it’s probably time to consider ending it anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
MrDane
On 1/4/2019 at 3:11 AM, James121 said:

To fellow sexuals.

 

If sex were completely removed from the table by your spouse, for good, would you either:

 

A) Leave the marriage 

B) Cheat 

C) Stay and suffer it

 

for the record I would be C...until I couldn’t stand it any longer then I would be B....until I got caught and then I would be A

First: I didnt read the whole thread, so just commenting on this as a sexual. 

 

Then: yes, I do think I have the rigth to seek/have a sex life with a consenting, sane adult partner. I cant demand it from a certain, chosen partner. I think, it is quite commonly understood, that almost everybody would like to have a pleasing sex life and that agreeing on building a relationship, means to share a life as well as some degree of nice sex. It is also commonly accepted that the approach towards sex can change as time goes by. (Menopause, children, stress, disease/sickness and just plain old losing the vibe). In any modern european country love is also important and mostly the combination of a lot of heartfelt love and a bit of sex is what keep the wheels turning (relationship-wise).

 

and to the options:

She could completely remove her own participation in my sex life (our mutual sex life). If she did so, then I would first try to mend it and find compromises and ways to deal with it within OUR marriage. Like changing the approach or trying things connected to. “What if you just held me, while I masturbated?” “What if we closed it down for half a year?” “Can I do something to cause you less discomfort on this issue.”

Then at some point I could say that if she was totally off, closed, shut down, then perhaps get her to understand that I would pursue sex elsewhere, but I do not call that cheating, since it is done as open and honest as possible. And I will, again, explain the importance to me. I will reassure her, that this isnt just to have fun with the neighbours young daugther. I would, anytime, prefer making love to my spouse.if it was completely OFF, Then depression is ON. 

 

Perhaps she would choose A. Because she couldnt handle it. I just will not take the blaim for the break-up as the bad guy.

 

I will be open and honest and work hard on this. I will also tell, if I will go to seek sex with someone else. I will want her to help finding the best solution. (Open realitionship, a friend of the family, swinging) this could be a version of B. B 2.0 But without the moral issues of going behind her back.

 

C is staying and suffering. And I would stay and figth for this for ever so long, but at some point I am not willing/able to lose or give up my sexuality. So C is just temporary. And the process is to avoid A so the good you have, can continue and the family can stay together. B is not an option as it also means losing what you have. So my choice would be option B 2.0

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Philip027
Quote

Also, I didn’t write anything offensive at all

You're insinuating that asexuals (and cancer victims, apparently) that don't disclose their status must be hiding their status on purpose, because according to you, "they should know".  So basically, you're calling them untrustworthy.  That's what's offensive.

 

As a cherry on top of the shit sundae, you aren't even asexual, so you personally have no idea what that's like.  (I'm willing to bet you've never been diagnosed with cancer either.)

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
James121
26 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

You're insinuating that asexuals (and cancer victims, apparently) that don't disclose their status must be hiding their status on purpose, because according to you, "they should know".  So basically, you're calling them untrustworthy.  That's what's offensive.

 

As a cherry on top of the shit sundae, you aren't even asexual, so you personally have no idea what that's like.  (I'm willing to bet you've never been diagnosed with cancer either.)

Not what I said at all Philip. Very pathetic! I said cancer sufferers often know something is up before anything is diagnosed as I’m sure many asexuals do or at least suspect.

Is there anything else I have said that you would like to completely reinvent so that it makes me some sort of bad guy and you some sort of victim?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Philip027

Your initial post that I responded to explicitly said:

if my wife suddenly announces that she’s realised she’d like to be a man I wouldn’t accept any pitiful excuses that she’s only just realised. Those doubts/feelings of confusion would have been there from her teens and certainly well before we met.


So yes, you're essentially calling the ones who might not know dishonest liars because according to you, "they should know".

 

You were talking about trans people instead of asexual people; I admit I got that mixed up with the other post I quoted, but the same point still applies.  I'm willing to bet you're not a trans person, either.

 

Nobody would have to make you "look like the bad guy" if you stopped making erroneous claims about people whose experiences you don't even share.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
anisotropic
36 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

As a cherry on top of the shit sundae, you aren't even asexual, so you personally have no idea what that's like

I'm not clear on whether @James121's partner self-identifies as ace, or if he's even tried to discuss it with her.

 

Sorry if I've missed anything but I think the lack of those things would be a whole can of cherries for me.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Philip027

It honestly doesn't matter if their partner was or not.  You are in a far weaker position to be making sweeping, judgmental statements about the way a group of people realize their identities when you are not part of that group yourself.  And even if you were, you'd still want to make damn sure they were actually accurate... it's just a lot more egregious when the statements are made from someone outside the group in question.

 

Do you think asexuals are in a good position to define sexual people and what sexuality means for them and how they discover/experience it?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ryn2
16 minutes ago, James121 said:

I said cancer sufferers often know something is up before anything is diagnosed as I’m sure many asexuals do or at least suspect.

To my earlier point, people sometimes know they are ill before diagnosis (even if they don’t know how ill, or what kind of ill) because they feel different than they normally do.  If they feel just like they always have, there’s no reason for them to suspect they are ill (unless you’re talking about the comparatively rare case where someone just has a lingering fear - in the absence of symptoms - that doctors have missed something).

 

Asexuals don’t have any experience with what it’s actually like not to be asexual.  Especially if they are not sex-repulsed, they have nothing to compare to that would cause them to wonder if or suspect that they’re unusual.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
James121
45 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

To my earlier point, people sometimes know they are ill before diagnosis (even if they don’t know how ill, or what kind of ill) because they feel different than they normally do.  If they feel just like they always have, there’s no reason for them to suspect they are ill (unless you’re talking about the comparatively rare case where someone just has a lingering fear - in the absence of symptoms - that doctors have missed something).

 

Asexuals don’t have any experience with what it’s actually like not to be asexual.  Especially if they are not sex-repulsed, they have nothing to compare to that would cause them to wonder if or suspect that they’re unusual.

Can’t they make comparisons between themselves and what everyone else says and does and what’s in the media/on tv?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Winged Whisperer
9 minutes ago, James121 said:

I’m sure many asexuals do or at least suspect. 

And you've had how many both asexuals and allosexuals tell you otherwise in this very thread that it's not the case?

 

I literally never had a clue that sex is such an important aspect of people's lives until I started reading the accounts of allosexuals here and was told by my therapist that it's a core pillar for spousal relationships. That was a massive revelation to me, like "oh wow! So that's why it's such a big deal in everything!". I couldn't tell even *something* was wrong with me. Yeah before discovering asexuality, I thought I wanted sex as that is what's normal. I never got why it was important to anyone, it was always on a separate importance axis for me, I had the split-attraction in my mind before I had heard of it. That was my mode of thinking since forever, and I knew for me the sexual axis was unimportant. And I thought well if you love someone, then sex doesn't matter. But I also thought that a lot of people were like me too. Never did I feel that something's wrong with me, until well, I entered a relationship and sex felt... weirdly off. But again, what the heck, maybe I just don't like it as much as others, or I'm in depressed phase and it'll go away. Even when you know something's off, it's rare to actually know what it is that's off.

  • Like 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
James121
51 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

It honestly doesn't matter if their partner was or not.  You are in a far weaker position to be making sweeping, judgmental statements about the way a group of people realize their identities when you are not part of that group yourself.  And even if you were, you'd still want to make damn sure they were actually accurate... it's just a lot more egregious when the statements are made from someone outside the group in question.

 

Do you think asexuals are in a good position to define sexual people and what sexuality means for them and how they discover/experience it?

Do I think asexuals are in a good position to define sexual people? No way. But many do or st least try and define the way they believe a sexual person should think. 

And the only sweeping statements I make are the statements that sweep away the bs that many try and hide behind.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
James121
2 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

And you've had how many both asexuals and allosexuals tell you otherwise in this very thread that it's not the case?

No one is honestly going to admit that they gambled on their marriage at the expense of someone. They’re always going to play down so they feel better about it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ryn2

How does that work, exactly?

 

I like coffee well enough.  If I have a cup in front of me I will drink it and probably enjoy it.

 

The person in the next office is self-professed craaaaazy about coffee.  It’s all she can talk about.  Then again, she’s bubbly and demonstrative about everything from work to TV to her kids to shopping.

 

Maybe there is something fundamentally different about my relationship with coffee... but I’m more likely to interpret it as a personality difference.

 

Coffee is talked about a lot more openly and honestly than sex is, at least where I live.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Winged Whisperer
2 minutes ago, James121 said:

Can’t they make comparisons between themselves and what everyone else says and does and what’s in the media/on tv? 

First off since talking about sex is already kinda taboo, it's likely that a lot of asexuals, myself included, don't actually get to hear that much from others. But more importantly sexual orientation and who you're attracted to is an internal feeling that loses a lot of meaning when communicated through the words of others. And while for other sexual minorities it's easier to understand what they are, because they still are allosexual at the end of the day, for asexuals that sexual desire and attraction is invisible. It's one thing to say "hey I had sex with my GF last night and it was really awesome", and actually communicating that real experience. They're just words, and when you haven't had sex before, you might even believe them on a conscious, logical level, while in reality sexuality is an internal orientation, not a belief system.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ryn2
2 minutes ago, James121 said:

No one is honestly going to admit that they gambled on their marriage at the expense of someone. They’re always going to play down so they feel better about it.

Every relationship is a gamble.  The end of a relationship is generally painful for both parties.  Do you really think aces enjoy hurting their partners so much that they just consider getting hurt themselves a cost of doing business?

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Philip027
Quote

And the only sweeping statements I make are the statements that sweep away the bs that many try and hide behind. 

It must be nice, thinking you know that much about a group of people when you honestly have no clue what it's actually like to be them.

 

Ignorance is bliss, as they say.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ryn2
9 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

I literally never had a clue that sex is such an important aspect of people's lives until I started reading the accounts of allosexuals here and was told by my therapist that it's a core pillar for spousal relationships.

Yeah, I wish this was taught - in a lot of detail - a lot earlier... but maybe it wouldn’t make much sense to people who have never been in relationships.  Dunno.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ryn2
5 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

It's one thing to say "hey I had sex with my GF last night and it was really awesome", and actually communicating that real experience.

Yes!  We’re all used to people using “awesome!” for things we think are “nice enough” or “just okay.”  It doesn’t convey any of the “my relationship experience is all muted and grey if there’s no sexual connection”/“without mutual desire sex does nothing for me”/“I get clinically depressed if I go too long without sex”/“not being desired does a number on my self-esteem”/“a relationship without mutual sexual attraction and desire is like a relationship with zero communication, ever” messages we see here.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Winged Whisperer
7 minutes ago, James121 said:

No one is honestly going to admit that they gambled on their marriage at the expense of someone. They’re always going to play down so they feel better about it.

Not only is this insulting, you're claiming to know the intention and motivation of others without ANY evidence whatsoever.

 

-"Hey I didn't know you're allergic to chocolate."

-"You actually did know and only want to comfort yourself now that you've put me in hospital tonight."

-"... Or maybe I really didn't know?"

 

tenor.gif?itemid=3552887

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Winged Whisperer
3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

It doesn’t convey any of the “my relationship experience is all muted and grey if there’s no sexual connection”/“without mutual desire sex does nothing for me”/“I get clinically depressed if I go too long without sex”/“not being desired does a number on my self-esteem”/“a relationship without mutual sexual attraction and desire is like a relationship with zero communication, ever” messages we see here.

And in hindsight why should the allosexual people actually say these stuff, when they're almost all in healthy sexual relationships and don't feel these things. Sure we might see a story in a play or film where a mature couple are having sexual difficulties, but those are like many many years in the marriage where they've grown tired or bored of each other. The real meaning and importance of sex isn't conveyed in those works either. It's just "Oh these people aren't into each other anymore", not "Oh sex is a like a core pillar of life and now it's taken away from them.".

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ryn2
4 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

And in hindsight why should the allosexual people actually say these stuff, when they're almost all in healthy sexual relationships and don't feel these things. Sure we might see a story in a play or film where a mature couple are having sexual difficulties, but those are like many many years in the marriage where they've grown tired or bored of each other. The real meaning and importance of sex isn't conveyed in those works either. It's just "Oh these people aren't into each other anymore", not "Oh sex is a like a core pillar of life and now it's taken away from them.".

Yeah, I’m not blaming sexuals for not adequately conveying what sex can mean... just saying that the typical media presentation and casual discussion of sex doesn’t get at anything that might make aces (especially those who are not sex-repulsed) suspect they were “not typical” somehow.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Serran

 

1 hour ago, James121 said:

Can’t they make comparisons between themselves and what everyone else says and does and what’s in the media/on tv?

As I said before, if you suspect you dont like sex and talk to sexual people about it then you get told a lot of stuff. I got told its normal to not be into it until you learn what its like, or find someone you are really into, or can teach your partner, or relax more, etc. So I was told I was experiencing normal sexuality, by experienced sexuals who were in long term sexual relationships. 

 

Even now I know a lot about asexuality and stuff, I listen to the women I work with talking about their sex lives. They say stuff like "I avoid dressing in revealing clothes cause I dont want my husband to ask for sex" and generally talk about ways they avoid sex. And only offer it as a way to get chores done around the house by their husbands. They dont talk about enjoying it. They act like its a chore given up for men so the men will be happy and helpful. 

 

When i mentioned to my last coworkers before I switched jobs that I hadnt had sex with my partner, so no risk of babies, they didnt ask how I manage to not do it. They said if I dont even if I dont want it, a man's nature will come out and he will get it elsewhere. Nothing about women should want it.

 

The only women I talked to that talked about enjoying it were at college, but they were ... well, one is now a professional stripper. So, they seemed the extreme. And suggested a good vibrator. Everyone else just said I was being normal not really enjoying it and to keep on, either just do it to please a man or keep doing it until you learn what you like. 

 

Even potential partners had the same advice... we will just work on it til we find what you like or find a sex toy that works for you. 

 

So to my mind I was just needing to put effort into enjoying PiV, or give it anyway cause a lot of people I know didnt like it either and just do it for their partners pleasure. And I was told over and over and over this was normal, even though it felt very off. But 20 or so women all assured me I was OK. I was a teen at the time so I just went with what all these older, wiser sexual women told me. And ended up in a miserable string of relationships where I never enjoyed the sex and got fed up giving it. 

 

No one ever tells you the option of not liking it and not needing to do it is an option. 

 

For me, I ended up needing the right person and no PiV or oral. For aces, even that isnt gonna work. But, if they hear the same messages I did and still do,  they arent going to just know hey im different... not til they are experienced in relationships more. A sex averse ace even will relate to my coworkers sex talk of avoiding their husbands advances. 

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ryn2

That’s all true, too.  The typical semi-public dialog where I live is that men brag about sex and women complain about it.

 

The impression I now get from things posted here is that this is just “gender bonding” small-talk and not necessarily reflective of how people actually feel about sex and the role it plays in their lives, but how would someone who doesn’t realize that know?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ryn2

Thinking back, after high school I can remember exactly once a female acquaintance complained about not having enough sex.

 

I am part of a longstanding, closed social media forum of about 100 women, some of whom are good online and irl friends of mine.  I can think of three times people there - in the 15+ years I’ve been an active posting member - have personally mentioned missing sex while between relationships or eagerly awaiting having it again after surgery or whatever.  Normally they mention their partners complaining about waiting.  It’s a community where people are very comfortable being frank about most any topic in general, and afaik no one on there is ace.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Serran
9 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

That’s all true, too.  The typical semi-public dialog where I live is that men brag about sex and women complain about it.

 

The impression I now get from things posted here is that this is just “gender bonding” small-talk and not necessarily reflective of how people actually feel about sex and the role it plays in their lives, but how would someone who doesn’t realize that know?

Yeah... I am guessing if the women who complain about sex stopped getting asked they would be upset. But, if you hear them talk, it sounds like they hate sex and want it to go away. They talk about " we rarely have bed visits" and stuff like its a good thing. Say they will never be naked in the house like they want cause their spouse would just pester them. Complain about being touched in bed, to the point one of them sleeps separately from their husband. 

 

But they love their spouses. Been together 20+ years. Would never leave them. Spend every day off together doing stuff. 

 

Maybe its cultural? I dunno. They are also the types that stick to gender roles, taking care of the husband (dinner on the table, laundry done, kids taken care of, etc despite also working) and all that. Not very liberal. So maybe they would be ashamed to admit liking the attention since its not lady like? I honestly dont know. 

 

But if you heard them talk, they sound like some of the most sex averse aces on here. Except they go on about it being God's role of a spouse so they do their duty. 

 

Thats the sort of people I grew up around and am still around as an adult. And, only through researching online and a string of unhappy relationships did I learn what they say probably isnt what they mean. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ryn2

Exactly.  I’m also in a more traditonal, conservative area (although differently so than yours - not so much God’s role, and they consider themselves more modern) and the impression I get now is that they must be saying what they’re expected to say rather than what they honestly feel... but...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.