James121

Would you leave

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Serran
7 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

(and in fairness to him there are people posting AVEN who might agree)

Well, from what ryn has said, he didnt exactly help with making his partner desire him. Wanting specific scenarios from porn and not wanting to try anything ryn is actually into. 

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SusannaC
1 hour ago, Serran said:

You did not use it, but Susanna did a few posts above you. And you responded to those of us against said word choice with "it is trauma", and "I dont know why we are comparing it to rape" (when someone literally did that a few posts above, implying it is as bad). And now you are calling arguing against her post a strawman...

 

So, it comes off as either you missed the post completely and think we are arguing its not painful - which no one did, in fact I said it is painful and listed two examples of how relationships have caused deep depression in my family alone and Sally has years of a partner being in pain causing her to have sex she didnt want so she gets it is painful - or as defending Susanna's post. Which is why I responded the way I did to your reply. 

 

 

I in NO way correlated the difficulty of being in an asexual marriage to the trauma of rape.  I am sorry you are a rape victim and find the subject to be emotionally charged.  Please do not FALSELY imply that I am in some way insensitive to the topic; I didn’t understand the relationship of rape to the topic at hand to begin with.     Obviously rape is a criminal act & a form of severe trauma.  Whether someone considers living in a sexless marriage “traumatic” is its own topic.  Not quite sure I understand the need to take offense with my QUESTION, which could be answered easily in nonaggressive, noncondescending fashion.

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anisotrophic
1 hour ago, Serran said:

think we are arguing its not painful

My impression was that an attempt to describe pain escalated into an unsympathetic reading (sexual entitlement and rape). That you threw in a couple examples at the end of people you know being hurt by things -- after hammering in on a word I did not use -- did not come off as sympathetic, no. I think you used my post to continue being angry about the word choice I deliberately did not use.

 

Frankly I think people are talking about two different things, focusing frustration/anger on which one they've personally suffered from: "Sexual Rejection Hurts" and "(Male) Sexual Entitlement".

 

I say "male" I think the latter really tends to be a behavior of a some cishet men. I don't think @James121's attitude has been helpful; it's unsympathetic and smells like item #2. But I was very skeptical @SusannaC meant it that way, being female (and she's said as much), and I think ideally an expression of suffering could be treated with more sympathy, not a competition.

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SusannaC

Your post did not anger me. Implying that I am insensitive and dismissing the pain of rape, does.  The comparison of rape to this topic seems so unnecessary to me-for the most part unrelated to the question.  Furthermore it was not a word originally used by me here, but rather I was responding to another persons use of the word in response to my question.  I find this site ever so helpful as I attempt to gain insight on my journey through my personal experience with Asexuality.  Just wish alternative viewpoints and honest questions were responded to with more compassion and less desire to find fault and criticize. 

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ryn2

The post that started that particular debate (pages back now) was the one saying that both sexual abuse and deprivation of sex (should) count as abuse.

 

Clearly sexual mismatches in relationships are challenging at best and really s**tty at worst, and there’s plenty of pain to go around... but it’s likely most - for all involved - don’t rise to the level of “abusive.”  Where they do, there’s often more wrong than sexual incompatibility.

 

I think we can all be sympathetic/empathetic about the suffering people are going through without broadly labeling either sexual or asexual partners as abusive or as people doling out abuse.

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SusannaC

This is an enlightening and interesting  perspective which I had not considered.  I thank you for this.  When I was thinking about the use of the word “abuse” I was thinking from a different angle-perhaps more appropriately a psychological form of abuse- which I now know was not the case at all, in my situation.    In the early years of my marriage I viewed my husbands denial of sex as close to abusive- for the pain, sadness and confusion in brought to my Life.  Certainly reading some of the posts here, reminds me of the pain of those years.  I thought at the time this was some type of control he was exerting over me.... ah well, stuff of the past, and i have since let it go.  The word abuse can take on many meanings- I have no desire to debate the meaning when Webster’s is easy to access.

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Traveler40

Thanks @SusannaC - I was mid sentence when you chimed in.  I understood what you meant and can empathize with you.  You’re not alone.  

 

 

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Serran
3 minutes ago, SusannaC said:

Your post did not anger me. Implying that I am insensitive and dismissing the pain of rape, does.  The comparison of rape to this topic seems so unnecessary to me-for the most part unrelated to the question.  Furthermore it was not a word originally used by me here, but rather I was responding to another persons use of the word in response to my question.  I find this site ever so helpful as I attempt to gain insight on my journey through my personal experience with Asexuality.  Just wish alternative viewpoints and honest questions were responded to with more compassion and less desire to find fault and criticize. 

You used the word abuse towards saying no to sex with your partner, in reply to someone saying being told to not rape is not as bad as being raped. Thats the part I take issue with. Doesnt even have to be your meaning to be a troublesome post.

 

Posts and comments like that are being read by young aces in mixed relationships. Some of which are not healthy. And that "question" is the sort of thing that leads them to doubt they should be upset by their partners taking what they are "owed". I have talked several posters over the years through major self doubt that they had any right to tell their sexual partner no and they reference things they read in SPFA and that their friends and family tell them as why they feel these people have a right to take sex from them. 

 

I put up with being ordered (yes, ordered, with the consequence of being thrown out into the snow nearly naked if I disobeyed, or other equally bad things) for years because I felt like the one in the wrong and everywhere I looked reinforced this belief. 

 

Many of the people I have come to care about from here felt similarly broken and put up with a lot of abuse because, again, everywhere they looked they saw people saying they were in the wrong. 

 

The word abuse, especially when someone has brought up rape, is very charged and holds a lot of weight. Applying it the way you did can cause a lot of damage to someone already struggling. 

 

So, Im not sorry I react strongly to put down that wording. Because that post being up unchallenged could be the next thing these young people in toxic relationships read and send them further down the "Im the one in the wrong" path of putting up with abuse from their partners. 

 

"Simple" things can have a lot of power. And while some strangers online shouldnt matter, to a person who feels broken and alone, anyone inside the norm matters. So as sexual allies, those words hold more weight than a hundred aces words to someone who feels like that. 

 

However, Im willing to accept you did not mean it the way it was written and it was sinply poor wording choice and timing. I perhaps was harsher than intended when refuting the claim of abuse, since I and several people I care deeply for have had similar things like that cause serious harm so it is very much personal. I understand most people probably dont even realize the harm such words can do, but it doesnt stop them being troublesome. 

 

And, again, I fully understand the incompatibility hurts. Relationships when they go bad hurt. A lot. We put a lot of emotional investment in our partners. When that investment becomes shaky, it can send people spiraling. Emotionally, differing orientations ends up being probably similar to cheating, but not as morally difficult, unless it was a known thing that was hidden rather than discovered later. But, it can still feel like betrayal, cause a loss of trust, self esteem issues and alter the relationship forever. It can make future relationships difficult, because people are afraid to trust their partner wants them and dont know how to act in a "normal" sexual relationship anymore. It can do a lot of serious long term damage. And it sucks for both people involved. 

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SusannaC
8 minutes ago, Serran said:

The word abuse, especially when someone has brought up rape, is very charged and holds a lot of weight. Applying it the way you did can cause a lot of damage to someone already struggling. 

 

 

I appreciate your explaination of why you feel the way you do about the disturbing subjects of abuse and rape, and i see your motivation more clearly now.  However, I  stand by what I said and will not apologize for being misunderstood.   My focus in the discussion was understanding how to handle an asexual- sexual marriage, not rape.   So the timing was unfortunate for me...My word choice was my word choice however, and of course will be analyzed.  If the discussion yesterday pertained to what you have just spoken about, I would have certainly kept my  mouth shut and only listened to others like you, who have knowledge and worldly experience about the topic of rape.  

Im not going to attempt to speak for any other sexuals- but I have been profoundly changed, hurt and confused over the years because of the relationship I have.  As far as trauma goes- I have shed enough tears and cried myself to sleep enough to justify significant pain and suffering.   The pain I have gone through doesn’t compare in any way to rape(of course!) but it is still MY pain, and it is real.    

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ryn2

I think the big difference is that much of the pain we all suffer in mismatched relationships isn’t from things that are willfully “done to us” by our partners (with the exception of actual abusive situations, of course).  It’s a consequence of misunderstanding and misinformation, by clinging to things everyone says must be fixable, by many other things.  Basically, it’s caused by the situation.

 

That doesn’t make the pain or damage any less real.  It’s just that the incompatible partners aren’t to blame for it.

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James121
1 hour ago, anisotropic said:

I say "male" I think the latter really tends to be a behavior of a some cishet men. I don't think @James121's attitude has been helpful; it's unsympathetic and smells like item #2.

It may seem unsympathetic (sometimes I think the same about the way asexuals talk about people who need sex) but I’m just trying to speak openly and truthfully. If it comes across as if I have no empathy, that’s not strictly true. 

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Traveler40
16 hours ago, ryn2 said:

 

I think the big difference is that much of the pain we all suffer in mismatched relationships isn’t from things that are willfully “done to us” by our partners

 

The thing is, it feels as if it’s being “done” when there’s willful ignorance, a complete lack of an attempt at empathy, a total lack of participation in any behavior to assist in compromise, etc being displayed.  Doing nothing willfully is still a choice with real consequences.

 

In my mind, it’s somewhat like a lie by omission.  You can argue whether that’s a lie by definition all day long, but it’s moot to the one who feels or believes they’ve been lied to.

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ryn2

Feeling like you’ve been lied to and being lied to aren’t the same thing, though.

 

[redacted]

 

It’s totally understandable to be pissed off at someone when you feel wronged... but that doesn’t mean they actually wronged you.

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James121
8 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Feeling like you’ve been lied to and being lied to aren’t the same thing, though.

 

My partner committed “‘til death do us part” and then spent 19 years telling me I couldn’t die before him because he just couldn’t go on without me

 

He insisted that I was being too conservative with savings, and that he would always be sure I was taken care of.

 

We were a team on everything.  I didn’t build an adequate support system because I *had* one.

 

I could go on and on and on.  So many examples of things said, things I did my best to believe.

 

Now he’s gone and I’m screwed.

 

Does it feel like I was lied to?  Absolutely.  *Was* he lying when he said all those things, though, all those years?  It *feels* like it now but... highly unlikely.  He was probably being wholly truthful at the time.

 

It’s totally understandable to be pissed off at someone when you feel wronged... but that doesn’t mean they actually wronged you.

I don’t quite get what you mean! So he wanted to spend and live life for now, you wanted to secure your financial future by being conservative and he left?

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ryn2
2 hours ago, James121 said:

I don’t quite get what you mean! So he wanted to spend and live life for now, you wanted to secure your financial future by being conservative and he left?

[redacted]

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Traveler40

It seems there was a choice made to go against your better judgment and hope for the best.  People are taught from an early age to plan ahead, but not enough folks follow through and protect themselves.

 

I really don’t see the connection to the point I was attempting to make.  In any case, I’m sorry to hear it went the way it did.

 

Edit: If he knew he had a fall back via a Trust, he didn’t have the same ultimate concerns you did and could afford to throw caution to the wind.  This could be its own form of misguidance.

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James121
3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Yes, but he is the ultimate recipient of a trust so he had justification for that approach.

 

If we had stayed together we collectively had enough saved, even without that... but if we’d “done it my way” I would not be screwed now.

 

Point being, though:  in reality it’s highly unlikely he was lying and just using me for spending money all these years with no regard for where that left me, much as it may feel that way to me now.

I get what you’re trying to say but in many cases, using your example, your husband would also have been conservative with money during the start of your relationship, he would have continued to be so throughout the engagement, but shortly after the wedding or at some point after he would have said, saving isn’t for me and therefore it isn’t going to be for you either and I’m spending the lot.

 

That is often the reality faced by a sexual person.

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ryn2

[redacted]

 

My point was that when something painful happens and you’re on the losing end of it it’s normal to feel mistreated and lied to.  That doesn’t mean the other person actually did anything wrong, though.  None of us can see the future.

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ryn2
2 minutes ago, James121 said:

That is often the reality faced by a sexual person.

I understand that.  I was “the sexual person” with “the puzzling partner” for the first several years of that relationship.

 

When someone grows, changes, and/or realizes new things about themselves, it can suck and even destroy the relationship... but that doesn’t mean you were actually bait-and-switched.

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James121
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

There was a choice made to go against my anxiety.  If we stayed together we would be fine without the additional money.  So (much as it feels otherwise) he didn’t actually misguide me unless he secretly planned to leave all along.

 

My point was that when something painful happens and you’re on the losing end of it it’s normal to feel mistreated and lied to.  That doesn’t mean the other person actually did anything wrong, though.  None of us can see the future.

Maybe then, if we use the same logic, affairs can be ok because at the time you make the promises, you meant them but later when people have changed their behaviours and intimacy disappears, you seek it elsewhere.

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ryn2
32 minutes ago, James121 said:

Maybe then, if we use the same logic, affairs can be ok because at the time you make the promises, you meant them but later when people have changed their behaviours and intimacy disappears, you seek it elsewhere.

No, by that logic we can say leaving because a relationship no longer meets your needs, or unilaterally (but openly) announcing you are seeking sex (or whatever) elsewhere because the relationship meets your needs, is/are okay.

 

An affair is by definition a lie at the time.

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James121
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

No, by that logic we can say leaving because a relationship no longer meets your needs, or unilaterally (but openly) announcing you are seeking sex (or whatever) elsewhere because the relationship meets your needs, is/are okay.

 

An affair is by definition a lie at the time.

Divorce can take a long long time in some cases especially if it’s disputed. Why does someone have to wait until the divorce is settled before they reconvene a sex life with someone?

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IronHamster
4 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

No, by that logic we can say leaving because a relationship no longer meets your needs, or unilaterally (but openly) announcing you are seeking sex (or whatever) elsewhere because the relationship meets your needs, is/are okay.

 

An affair is by definition a lie at the time.

If unilaterally declaring limitations to sex within a relationship is ok, then unilaterally announcing outsourcing is ok.  

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ryn2
1 minute ago, IronHamster said:

If unilaterally declaring limitations to sex within a relationship is ok, then unilaterally announcing outsourcing is ok.  

Agreed.  It’s the failure to *announce* it that makes it cheating.

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James121
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Agreed.  It’s the failure to *announce* it that makes it cheating.

So if you say “im doing this, you’ll have to just like or lump it” it’s ok?

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IronHamster
1 minute ago, James121 said:

So if you say “im doing this, you’ll have to just like or lump it” it’s ok?

I wish my asexual spouse had been so honest with me.  It still would have ended in divorce, but it could have saved me decades of grief and the massive expense from our parasite supporting legal system.  

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ryn2
Just now, James121 said:

So if you say “im doing this, you’ll have to just like or lump it” it’s ok?

That’s then up to the partner.

 

It’s perfectly reasonable within a relationship to ask for what you need and stick to your guns about it.  That may mean ending the relationship, or it may mean adjusting it in some way.

 

It’s lying about it that I’m not okay with.

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ryn2
Just now, IronHamster said:

I wish my asexual spouse had been so honest with me.  It still would have ended in divorce, but it could have saved me decades of grief and the massive expense from our parasite supporting legal system.  

Yes, I wish the same regarding my former partner.

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ryn2
Just now, ryn2 said:

Yes, I wish the same regarding my former partner.

But, unfortunately, there’s that hindsight again.  People can’t tell you the truth until they know it.

 

Some people don’t even then, which is a different issue.

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Philip027
Quote

A person suffering from cancer often knows that they don’t feel well before any diagnosis.

Also not necessarily correct.  My mom was totally blindsided when she get diagnosed with breast cancer.

 

Keep on with the offensive suggestions, though; we can keep score of how many groups of people you manage to piss off in this thread.

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