James121

Would you leave

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ryn2
11 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

Some people may be lucky enough to experience that certainty from such a young age but many don't. I didn't have my first boyfriend until I was 18 and I haven't personally known anyone who had a boyfriend or girlfriend before their teens. 

Culturally, in some (probably many, sadly) places, it’s very troubling to many parents if their  sons are gay.  In those places boys are often pushed to like girls and rewarded for demonstrating an interest in girls as soon as they have interest in anything at all.  That may affect (not so much their actual orientation, but) their recollections and experience.

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Winged Whisperer
15 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Culturally, in some (probably many, sadly) places, it’s very troubling to many parents if their  sons are gay.  In those places boys are often pushed to like girls and rewarded for demonstrating an interest in girls as soon as they have interest in anything at all.  That may affect (not so much their actual orientation, but) their recollections and experience. 

And there are cultures like mine where when I was in my early teens I told my dad "I want a girlfriend" and got scolded in return. 😑 Yeah, lesson learned, don't talk about relationships with my parents ever again. Which I didn't until I decided to get married with my GF and needed them on board.

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ryn2

I feel like james may think all aces are alibidinous, so - when “everyone else” hits puberty and gets sex-crazed - they should notice they stand out.

 

This is true for some aces (and for some “late bloomer” sexuals), but many have the same libido/sex drive as sexuals have.  They masturbate, may enjoy erotica and/or porn, may have fantasies that involve sex (although the details may be different), and so forth.  They aren’t necessarily less “sex-crazed” than their peers.  It varies, just like the sexuals’ sex-crazed-ness varies.

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James121
3 hours ago, ryn2 said:

And when you say that, what do you mean if not “I think you’re lying?”

Just because I have a different opinion?

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James121
3 hours ago, ryn2 said:

This is true for some aces (and for some “late bloomer” sexuals), but many have the same libido/sex drive as sexuals have.  They masturbate, may enjoy erotica and/or porn, may have fantasies that involve sex (although the details may be different), and so forth.  They aren’t necessarily less “sex-crazed” than their peers.  It varies, just like the sexuals’ sex-crazed-ness varies.

In which case it stands to reason that they would involve themselves in conversations about sex but would likely realise that they haven’t got any desire for partnered sex.

It also confuses me as to why there are so many asexuals who are battling ‘invisibility’.

 

If you blend it this well and if none of you know, how the hell are we supposed to know?

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ryn2
22 minutes ago, James121 said:

Just because I have a different opinion?

If you have an opinion A, and someone else says “my personal experience was B,” and you say you don’t believe them... what are you saying, then?

 

If you say a particular lemon is really sour, and someone else tastes it and says “to me it is much less sour than most lemons”... and you say “I don’t believe you,” what do you mean?

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ryn2
5 minutes ago, James121 said:

If you blend it this well and if none of you know, how the hell are we supposed to know?

Well, that’s the problem.  If the ace person doesn’t realize they’re ace and the sexual doesn’t realize the ace person is ace... mixed relationship.  It’s not either person’s *fault*.

 

I still think you’re confusing actively not wanting - like, seeking to avoid - partnered sex (which is true of people who are sex-repulsed, and also may be true of aces who learned from past relationships - or the experiences of others - that it’s what works best for them) with lacking the want (craving?) for partnered sex.

 

The former stands out.  The latter doesn’t.  Just because one person says “sex is the best thing that ever happened to me” and another says “sex is alright,” does that mean the second person is ace?  It could, but it could also mean the second person hasn’t had sex with the right person, or is just less enthusiastic about it within the normal range of sexual people... or is just not as enthusiastic talking about it as the first person is.

 

If there was some obvious way everyone who’s ace could magically know they are, that would spare a lot of people a lot of pain.  Unfortunately even the pros haven’t found one.

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ryn2
45 minutes ago, James121 said:

Just because I have a different opinion?

Let’s take something completely neutral.  Brussels sprouts.  I love them, you don’t.

 

It’s fine that I love them and you don’t.

 

It’s fine that, when you learn that I love them, you say “ugh, but they’re terrible!  How can you even eat them??”

 

If I shrug and say “I love them,” and you say “I don’t believe you,” you’re saying I’m being untruthful... that you somehow know my true feelings and the ones I’m expressing are therefore not true.  That’s not okay.

 

Likewise, if you walk away from the conversation and then tell someone else “ryn claims to love Brussells Sprouts but that’s impossible because everyone knows they’re horrible,” you’re saying I’m being untruthful.  You’re saying you know my experience better than I do.  That’s also not okay.

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CBC
9 hours ago, ryn2 said:

 

I feel like james may think all aces are alibidinous, so - when “everyone else” hits puberty and gets sex-crazed - they should notice they stand out.

 

This is true for some aces (and for some “late bloomer” sexuals)

 

I am one of those sexuals, which is probably why the idea of being ace wasn't a huge stretch for me. My body never really randomly nags at me for sexual release, I don't have feelings of arousal out of the blue, and I definitely never went through a sex-crazed period as a teen. If anything, I felt very alienated by it all. (In retrospect, some of that could've been due to being gay but having no clue.) Then stuff like illness happened, and sex and sexuality seemed like very distant and foreign concepts. During that period, I always described them as things that were simply completely irrelevant to my life. And then I ended up in a relationship that was not at all the right one for me, and that stuff became outright negative. Through all those years, it was very easy to just not connect to much of anything sexual.

 

And then I found myself in a different place in life, in a very different relationship. And discovered that within that context, within a relationship that works and feels right, I'm quite a sexual person. Sexuality has become deeply tied to my sense of self actually, my healthy sense of self. I'm so much happier with that component in my life than not.

 

So, the opposite is true. There are aces who just really have no idea because a lot of other things seem pretty typical to them. I don't think that's the case for the majority of aces, a lot of them seem to notice the difference, but for the ones who have normal libidos and feel interested in people and whatnot, it probably takes real-life experience to learn that it's not their thing. Unfortunately, others may get hurt in the process of them figuring that out.

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ryn2
22 minutes ago, Ceebs. said:

I am one of those sexuals, which is probably why the idea of being ace wasn't a huge stretch for me. My body never really randomly nags at me for sexual release, I don't have feelings of arousal out of the blue, and I definitely never went through a sex-crazed period as a teen. If anything, I felt very alienated by it all. (In retrospect, some of that could've been due to being gay but having no clue.) Then stuff like illness happened, and sex and sexuality seemed like very distant and foreign concepts. During that period, I always described them as things that were simply completely irrelevant to my life. And then I ended up in a relationship that was not at all the right one for me, and that stuff became outright negative. Through all those years, it was very easy to just not connect to much of anything sexual.

 

And then I found myself in a different place in life, in a very different relationship. And discovered that within that context, within a relationship that works and feels right, I'm quite a sexual person. Sexuality has become deeply tied to my sense of self actually, my healthy sense of self. I'm so much happier with that component in my life than not.

 

So, the opposite is true. There are aces who just really have no idea because a lot of other things seem pretty typical to them. I don't think that's the case for the majority of aces, a lot of them seem to notice the difference, but for the ones who have normal libidos and feeling interested in people and whatnot, it probably takes real-life experience to learn that it's not their thing. Unfortunately, others may get hurt in the process of them figuring that out.

Agreed, I’m sure there are plenty of people - aces, in the relevant case here - who do stand out from the crowd enough to notice it.

 

The problem is, it seems like james (in this case) is extending that to all aces and then saying people who know they stand out in key sex-related ways are going on to lure sexuals into relationships for other gain anyway.

 

I don’t think that’s true.  I think (as you explained about yourself) it’s just not obvious for/to some people, so they do what they believe is the right thing and then gradually discover it wasn’t.

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James121
5 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Let’s take something completely neutral.  Brussels sprouts.  I love them, you don’t.

 

It’s fine that I love them and you don’t.

 

It’s fine that, when you learn that I love them, you say “ugh, but they’re terrible!  How can you even eat them??”

 

If I shrug and say “I love them,” and you say “I don’t believe you,” you’re saying I’m being untruthful... that you somehow know my true feelings and the ones I’m expressing are therefore not true.  That’s not okay.

 

Likewise, if you walk away from the conversation and then tell someone else “ryn claims to love Brussells Sprouts but that’s impossible because everyone knows they’re horrible,” you’re saying I’m being untruthful.  You’re saying you know my experience better than I do.  That’s also not okay.

But by the age you would get married we are in agreement as to whether you would have a decent idea of whether you would like Brussel sprouts? And if getting married was going to involve eating them?

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Winged Whisperer
2 minutes ago, James121 said:

But by the age you would get married we are in agreement as to whether you would have a decent idea of whether you would like Brussel sprouts? And if getting married was going to involve eating them?

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The point wasn't to make an analogy between sexuality and food tastes, but how you're accusing people of lying about their personal experiences and refusing to believe simple anecdotes in a conversation.

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ryn2
35 minutes ago, James121 said:

But by the age you would get married we are in agreement as to whether you would have a decent idea of whether you would like Brussel sprouts? And if getting married was going to involve eating them?

What winged whisperer said.  I was hoping that running through the thought process with something completely innocuous and unrelated would help make clear why I came to the conclusion you were inferring aces (and gay men, in your example) were lying.

 

No, I am not in agreement that all (or even most) aces who are not sex-repulsed and/or alibidinous will know by the time they get to “marrying age.”  I am also not in agreement that all straight or gay sexuals know by then.  Several people in varying orientation camps have given their personal examples of your theory NOT being correct earlier in this topic.

 

Some aces will know before they get into relationships.  You see examples of them on AVEN.

 

Some will not know before they get into their first relationships.  You will see examples of them on AVEN.

 

Some will not know until they have been in numerous relationships.  You will see examples of them on AVEN too.

 

Some will never know.  You would only see them on AVEN posting as sexuals because... they do not know.

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xstatic

My s/o felt like he was on a different spectrum, but wasn't sure how.  He thought he was probably demi.  Only after being in a relationship with me did he consider that he was probably ace.  I did quite a lot of research on both.  I knew the general concepts, but it's definitely not simple so there was a lot of good information.  I know that he was hoping to discover that he was demi... probably more for my sake than anything.  But I told him not all that long ago that I just didn't believe that to be true.  He agreed.  We're in our thirties.  Life is confusing.  Answers aren't always easy to find.  Discovering who you are is a lifelong journey.

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InquisitivePhilosopher
13 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

...Some aces will know before they get into relationships.  You see examples of them on AVEN.

 

Some will not know before they get into their first relationships.  You will see examples of them on AVEN.

 

Some will not know until they have been in numerous relationships.  You will see examples of them on AVEN too.

 

Some will never know.  You would only see them on AVEN posting as sexuals because... they do not know.

Yes. I was hoping this thread wasn't about making the claim that asexuals have to know their sexual orientation--without having the chance to date others--while other sexuals (e.g. heterosexual, homosexual, etc.) are allowed to date and experiment with several types of people, to get to figure out their orientation; that would seem unfair for asexuals.

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Serran
1 hour ago, James121 said:

But by the age you would get married we are in agreement as to whether you would have a decent idea of whether you would like Brussel sprouts? And if getting married was going to involve eating them?

First of all, marrying age is a vague term. My cousin married at 16. My aunt married at 13. Legally, within the U.S. I entered my first sexual relationship at 15 and my marriage at 19.

 

How many teens do you know who are experts on what they want later in life and have themselves totally figured out?

 

If we are talking 20s-30s, you have a higher chance of noticing. But isnt always the case. 

 

When I was 25, in my fourth sexual relationship (which was my marriage), I was still being told by everyone I was normal. At 29, when i entered my current relationship, I swore I had myself figured out. I was ace and never wanted sex. I was free and clear, I knew myself !... only at age 30 to develop sexual attraction to my now spouse to the point she wraps her arms around me and kisses my neck and thats all it takes. 

 

Some people figure themselves out. Some people identify one way, figure out they were wrong, change it, figure out that was wrong... 

 

Several aces who never had sex that knew they never wanted it ended up wanting it. I know two, personally (as in they are friends). 

 

Several sexuals thought they were ace and ended up wrong. 

 

How many stories do you need to hear before you accept its hard for some people to figure out their own sexuality? Experimentation is popular in college for a reason... 

 

I mean, for me, Im thinking it was complicated because some TW stuff for abuse and incest and all 

 

 

 


 

1) Women I know say they dislike sex

2) I was sexually abused by 12, so it probably messed up my normal development .. and messed up sexual encounters at 15 and on (including my dad trying to come onto me and a 55 and 24 year old trying to talk me into having sex on camera at 15 ) probably threw things off further

3) I am too much about emotional ties, so any casual romantic or sexual interests arent a thing for me 

 
 

 

 

As for crushes at 6... uhm. Some do. Not all. I work in an elementary school. Some of the kids do that, others do not. My first crush was at 15 and became my first boyfriend. 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
7 hours ago, James121 said:

Just because I have a different opinion?

There's a huge difference between you having a different opinion and you arguing with people's actual life experience.

 

For example, if you said you think God will send gay people to hell. That's a crappy OPINION about gay people that a lot of people disagree with but it can't actually be changed that easily because no one knows what's going to happen when any of us die.

 

But when a man says 'I got married to three different women before I finally realised I was gay. There was always something missing but I never even knew it wasn't there until I finally had sex with a man in my 40s; That's when everything finally fell into place'. And you respond 'No that's not true, you would have known by the time you were married the first time so you were tricking all those women' - that's no longer an opinion. It's denial. It's you denying people's lived experience (which is actually a relatively common experience for some gay people) because it doesn't perfectly match your experience.

 

At that point it's no longer 'an opinion'. It's wilfull ignorance.

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ryn2
6 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

There was always something missing but I never even knew it wasn't there until I finally had sex with a man in my 40s; 

This seems to be where he keeps getting stuck.  People say “looking back, I now see...” and somehow that “proves” to him they should have also known looking forward.

 

Perhaps he had never had a revelation?

 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Perhaps he had never had a revelation?

It's a rather basic concept but it seems completely lost on him, yeah.

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iff
2 hours ago, James121 said:

But by the age you would get married we are in agreement as to whether you would have a decent idea of whether you would like Brussel sprouts? And if getting married was going to involve eating them?

I don't know, it took my mother 30 years of marriage before she declared her dislike of mushrooms. Maybe she was pretending to like them for the sake of the children?

 

A further irony being her own father (my grandfather, rest his soul)  grow mushrooms and she did work in the mushroom grow house when she was growing up.

 

She does still get mushrooms for my father, but I have my suspicions he doesn't like mushrooms either and they go through with this to avoid raised voices.

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InquisitivePhilosopher

I don't know if this'll help, or if this was already mentioned in the thread, but, what makes it difficult for some asexuals to realize that they're asexual is the fact that different attractions exist, like aesthetic attraction, romantic attraction, etc. (which, for some asexuals who weren't, or aren't, taught about those attractions being different from sexual attraction in sex ed classes, causes them to have to confusedly try to figure out their own feelings about people: whether they feel platonic friendship towards a friend or whether it's really romantic attraction--which then, they think, perhaps, might turn into sexual attraction, if, perhaps, they tried to date and progress their relationship with that friend.)

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GoneForGood

@InquisitivePhilosopher It really threw me. I am romantic and I have a sensual attraction to women. Before finding out the other attractions were a separate thing I figured that I had to be a lesbian (then I tried Demi and then Grey)

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OptimisticPessimist

@InquisitivePhilosopher this! Before I knew Asexuality was a thing, I thought I was Bi, then when I realised I was Ace and discovered Aromantic, I thought I was Gray. 

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InquisitivePhilosopher

:) Yes; I also went through periods of trying to figure out my orientation.

 

I also forgot to mention that, in addition to being confused with not knowing that there were different types of attractions, what also might make it challenging for some asexuals to figure out their asexual orientation is having to also deal with questioning their gender, gender/social dysphoria, etc. at the same time, trying to figure out which feelings might have more to do with their sexual orientation or wanting to be a certain gender (or agender, non-binary, etc.), their gender expression, etc.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)

I was 28 before I discovered I could enjoy and desire some aspects of that sexual intimacy, and that was after I'd declared being both celibate and asexual as I'd had so many years previously of unsatisfactory sex that I never wanted or desired. I'd been calling myself 'bisexual without the sexual part' before I discovered the term asexual. So it goes both ways for sure.

 

Not everyone has the good fortune to know their sexuality for certain from a young age and for some, it takes multiple relationships and a lot of experimentation etc before they work it out.

 

It's also very easy to not know that you don't know, if that makes sense (just as I had no idea I was actually sexual the whole time I was IDing as ace. I was very happy as an asexual and even had an asexual relationship with no issues at all on the sexual front). But that's been explained multiple times and the point keeps getting missed so there's no point in trying to explain again.

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James121
5 hours ago, Ficto. said:

It's a rather basic concept but it seems completely lost on him, yeah.

It sure is. Mainly because I don’t have the wool pulled over my eyes too easily.

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anisotropic

@James121 why don't you just leave? To get back to that question. You seem bitter enough.

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
1 hour ago, James121 said:

It sure is. Mainly because I don’t have the wool pulled over my eyes too easily.

The term you're looking for is wilfully ignorant. That's what you're being.

 

Almost every person here, both sexual and ace, have been explaining to you how their experience does not match in any way what you're saying everyone should experience. Yet you're insisting your version of how life should work is the only correct one.

 

But to be honest I don't even think you're actually holding a serious opinion here anymore, you're just trying to annoy people. That's my conclusion based on how long this has gone on for now.

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Sally
On 1/10/2019 at 7:15 PM, James121 said:

No just from the point that you start dating adults and agree to marry them. Slightly different 

James, that is your opinion.  No one is in a position to make rules for anyone else.  

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CBC
2 hours ago, anisotropic said:

@James121 why don't you just leave? To get back to that question. You seem bitter enough.

Because he likes creating a big spectacle of his misery instead of doing something about it, it seems.

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