James121

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ryn2
6 minutes ago, James121 said:

For the record, unless serran’s ex made it clear that’s how he wanted their relationship to be from the outset, I think that’s just as bad as what I have been disagreeing with.

...which is my point.  Sometimes (usually, especially in second marriages) situations seem fine at the outset and turn less so over time.  That can be because one or both partners are jerks.  It can be because someone is dishonest.  It can also be that both people are lovely and honest but just can’t live with things they thought they could live with, and/or because one or both grew in incompatible ways.

 

This happens a full half the time.

 

You talk as though aces are intentionally entering into relationships with intent to wreck them.  By that logic, so are a whole lot of other people.

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Winged Whisperer
3 minutes ago, James121 said:

Very true but surely the chances of it happening when an asexual is involved  rocket due to the fact that they have no innate desire for partnered sex.

And the point stands anyway.

 

5 minutes ago, James121 said:

 

You can’t demonise sexual people this way! It’s not a form of discrimination.  

I never did. You read way too much into what I said. Allosexuals are free and in their right to seek sexual relationships. White people are also within their right to not fancy dating black people and vice versa. But you can't arbitrate that asexuals shouldn't be allowed to seek a relationships with allosexuals. That's bigoted.

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James121
Just now, Winged Whisperer said:

And the point stands anyway.

Yes it would appear to. I just think that’s selfish.

1 minute ago, Winged Whisperer said:

But you can't arbitrate that asexuals shouldn't be allowed to seek a relationships with allosexuals. That's bigoted.

When did I do that precisely? I think you’ll actually find that i said it’s not ok to do it and keep it hidden. Very very very very different to what you’re suggesting.

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James121
5 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

You talk as though aces are intentionally entering into relationships with intent to wreck them.  By that logic, so are a whole lot of other people.

I don’t think they have any intention to wreck them. My point is being very much missed or misinterpreted.

 

An asexual who enters a relationship knowing they are asexual without disclosing such, or suspects they are very different to what they see and hear is ‘the norm’ when it comes to sex is being unfair by not sitting their partner down (before the wedding day) and saying  “something is up....I’m not sure what’s going on but......[insert the definition of an asexual here]......

 

 

 

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Winged Whisperer
1 minute ago, James121 said:

Yes it would appear to. I just think that’s selfish.

Sometimes people are completely within their rights (and I don't mean that just in the absolute legal sense) to have some degree selfishness and still be acting completely ethically. That's fine. I'm not one to imply that altruism is impossible and ALL human actions are selfish but all relationships have some elements of selfishness in them.

 

4 minutes ago, James121 said:

I think you’ll actually find that i said it’s not ok to do it and keep it hidden. Very very very very different to what you’re suggesting.

Ok, nano was the one who explicitly said that. You're still writing the moral book on how to conduct relationships for asexuals in a very one-sided way though. Fine I'll bite this bullet too. Sometimes it's even fine to keep it hidden, maybe for some time. Maybe the person is not truly sure of their asexuality (I'm not). Maybe they're just looking for a short term relationship, or maybe they just want to "go with flow" and see what happens and tell their partner about their asexuality once they want to commit. I don't think in these types of situations it's necessary to talk about asexuality from the get-go. Once things want to get serious, then yeah, keeping it hidden then is wrong.

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Winged Whisperer
22 minutes ago, James121 said:

An asexual who enters a relationship knowing they are asexual without disclosing such, or suspects they are very different to what they see and hear is ‘the norm’ when it comes to sex is being unfair by not sitting their partner down (before the wedding day) and saying  “something is up....I’m not sure what’s going on but......[insert the definition of an asexual here]...... 

I'd agree. But when you don't know about asexuality or the possibility of someone even having the characteristics of asexuality, then they can't even really tell that something's wrong. I kid you not, just 2 days ago when I was surfing Twitter I saw this girl reply to the idea of someone not being sexually interested into their partner with "That's impossible, they're either castrated, lying, getting their needs fulfilled with someone else or they're planning to murder me". Think about it, the possibility that a stalker is planning to murder them hits their mind before the possibility that some people's sexual orientation is towards no one! That's literally what they said btw (translated). Education and visibility isn't about the label, it's about the concepts. The likely scenarios in their (asexuals who have no idea) head are that they just have a low libido, or they've been stressed or depressed in the past when it came to sex and they'll get better and it'll click, or sex being meh is just normal. Or the countless other examples people in this thread like Ficto and anisotropic have explained.

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James121
7 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

Sometimes it's even fine to keep it hidden, maybe for some time. Maybe the person is not truly sure of their asexuality (I'm not). Maybe they're just looking for a short term relationship, or maybe they just want to "go with flow" and see what happens and tell their partner about their asexuality once they want to commit. I don't think in these types of situations it's necessary to talk about asexuality from the get-go. Once things want to get serious, then yeah, keeping it hidden then is wrong.

I think we are just very different in terms of our moral compass. I wouldn’t feel comfortable dating someone, going with the flow and spending say 6-12 months in a ‘fun’ relationship and then if it appears to be getting serious (or at least heading that way) dropping a potential bomb. I’d look at that from the perspective that I’ve potentially completely wasted a year of someone’s potential love life. 

 

I suppose that I would make a comparison between this and being infertile, dating someone who definitely wants children, seeing how it goes for a year and at the crunch time of the relationship being serious saying “now did I ever mention.....”

 

I would honestly expect a slap round the face for that. It’s not entirely different. 

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CBC
20 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

Maybe the person is not truly sure of their asexuality (I'm not). Maybe they're just looking for a short term relationship, or maybe they just want to "go with flow" and see what happens and tell their partner about their asexuality once they want to commit. I don't think in these types of situations it's necessary to talk about asexuality from the get-go. Once things want to get serious, then yeah, keeping it hidden then is wrong.

Absolutely. I have a really big problem with asexuals who know exactly who they are and what they want not disclosing that information at the very beginning. That's unethical. But if you're not sure, as long as you're open with your partner (or potential partners) about what you do know about yourself, go for it. If they choose that situation for themselves, that's on them.

 

Experience. Trial and error. That's literally the only way we learn about ourselves. You can't fault someone for trying to figure out what works for them. If we all sat around and waited till we knew everything there is to know about ourselves, no one would do fuck all of anything with their lives because we'd be sitting doing nothing until we died.

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James121
2 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

I'd agree. But when you don't know about asexuality or the possibility of someone even having the characteristics of asexuality, then they can't even really tell that something's wrong. I kid you not, just 2 days ago when I was surfing Twitter I saw this girl reply to the idea of someone not being sexually interested into their partner with "That's impossible, they're either castrated, lying, getting their needs fulfilled with someone else or they're planning to murder me". That's literally what they said

I get that people may not know they are asexual. I get it. But they know that they never really want sex. Why don’t they say it? It matters not whether you can provide a name for it or define it perfectly but again, in that position I absolutely believe I would say to my partner, I’m really sorry but I don’t really seem to want sex. I can’t wxplain why but I just don’t. Where do we stand?

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ryn2
11 minutes ago, James121 said:

I get that people may not know they are asexual. I get it. But they know that they never really want sex. Why don’t they say it? It matters not whether you can provide a name for it or define it perfectly but again, in that position I absolutely believe I would say to my partner, I’m really sorry but I don’t really seem to want sex. I can’t wxplain why but I just don’t. Where do we stand?

The problem is, people who “don’t really want sex” don’t have “really wanting sex” to compare to so they often *don’t* know “something is wrong” at the time they enter into relationships (or those relationships turn serious).  As a sexual, if you suddenly felt the way an ace person feels, you might well go “uh oh, something is wrong!” but you have your feelings as a sexual for comparison.  A lot of aces are not sex-repulsed and therefore do not have strong (or any) feelings of *not* wanting sex.

 

As a comparison, let’s say people have a right not to date alcoholics because alcoholism destroys lives and families.  On the surface that’s “just” saying “if you’re an alcoholic, you must divulge it in the first couple of dates.”  But in reality many people who exhibit - or who will go on to exhibit - behaviors consistent with alcoholism do not identify that way.  So, does the rule become “anyone who thinks more than two drinks a day could be okay must divulge in the first couple of dates”?

 

The best preventative is probably - where it’s allowed from a religious/cultural standpoint - long cohabitation before marriage.  At minimum people should not make major decisions (including proposing/accepting proposals) while in the throes of NRE.

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Winged Whisperer
43 minutes ago, James121 said:

I get that people may not know they are asexual. I get it. But they know that they never really want sex.

Knowing they won't ever want sex is having the characteristics of asexuality. I JUST told you how people can not understand the possibility of those characteristics existing. You're being willfully ignorant at this point.

 

17 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

The problem is, people who “don’t really want sex” don’t have “really wanting sex” to compare to so they often *don’t* know “something is wrong” at the time they enter into relationships (or those relationships turn serious).  As a sexual, if you suddenly felt the way an ace person feels, you might well go “uh oh, something is wrong!” but you have your feelings as a sexual for comparison.  A lot of aces are not sex-repulsed and therefore do not have strong (or any) feelings of *not* wanting sex.

 

As a comparison, let’s say people have a right not to date alcoholics because alcoholism destroys lives and families.  On the surface that’s “just” saying “if you’re an alcoholic, you must divulge it in the first couple of dates.”  But in reality many people who exhibit - or who will go on to exhibit - behaviors consistent with alcoholism do not identify that way.  So, does the rule become “anyone who thinks more than two drinks a day could be okay must divulge in the first couple of dates”?

 

The best preventative is probably - where it’s allowed from a religious/cultural standpoint - long cohabitation before marriage.  At minimum people should not make major decisions (including proposing/accepting proposals) while in the throes of NRE.

Everything about this post:

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
1 hour ago, James121 said:

I get that people may not know they are asexual. I get it. But they know that they never really want sex.

You clearly haven't listened to anything anyone here has said then. Because, I say again, unidentified asexuals often DON'T know they don't want sex. They have to have relationships FIRST to learn that, then when they talk to sexual people about it they are told 'oh that's normal, you just haven't been with the right person yet' etc. Just because you don't like that doesn't stop it from being true.

 

Sometimes after much trial and error they will eventually come to the conclusion that nothing they do or try will make them be able to desire sex, so after many relationships (maybe they're even one right now) they finally come to the conclusion they're ace. As I did in the past. As @Serran did. @Ceebs. did. At that point, I think almost everyone agrees here that it's important to be open about your asexuality. Once you have DEFINITELY come to the conclusion you're ace and don't want sex, ever, no matter how long it took you to work that out (because believe me, it's not something you just learn overnight. Just as many gay people go YEARS thinking they're straight before finally realising they're gay. You know that happens).

 

But you know what? Then someone came along who made us (after we'd definitely concluded we were ace) feel the right things and did things to us in the right way, and that made us actually want sex with them. No that doesn't happen in all cases, but it happens in some. So just because it seems absolutely final, it's not always final. Maybe you couldn't make your wife want sex, but maybe there's someone out there who will make her want it and I'm starting to wonder if that's threatening to you which is why you keep repeatedly brushing over this point. Just because someone seems to really, really not desire sex.. that doesn't actually mean they do turn out to be ace. They just hadn't been with the right partner yet.

 

Sometimes, someone does just need to keep trying even if they're sure they don't want sex. Eventually they may end up with the right person who ends up very happy and sexually satisfied with this previously ace identifying person. Ya just never know.

 

 

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ryn2

A slightly different but related point (that still fits the alcoholism comparison, and) that I keep seeing brought up is that “ace people must know they’ve always felt different.”

 

Ace people know they feel *how they feel*.  For people who are actively sex-repulsed and who are not part of religious communities that encourage premarital abstinence, yes, they may have noticed their feelings are different from their friends’ feelings.

 

Ace people who are *not* sex-repulsed, though, typically have no reason to realize the way they feel is different from others.  Even if they do notice differences, they normally end up feeling “picky” rather than “ace.”

 

This can certainly be true for gay people, too, but I think it’s more likely for aces.  A strong pull towards something (or a strong aversion to it) is easy to recognize, but fairly neutral

feelings don’t stand out the same way.

 

As several people have said, it’s through relationships that we all learn what we do and don’t need and what we can and can’t tolerate.  This isn’t willful use of other people; it’s how we all learn and mature.

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Telecaster68
Just now, ryn2 said:

fairly neutral feelings don’t stand out the same way.

I'm a little skeptical of this.

 

I'm not particularly interested in football (note to American friends: soccer), which makes me unusual as a bloke. I don't mind it. I've been to a few matches when I was younger as a social thing with friends and to see if I started to like it when I saw it live. If it's on TV, I don't mind, but I'd never turn it on myself. I got a bit interested when England were doing okay in the world cup last year. But I don't think about it much and I would barely notice if it suddenly disappeared from the world. In other words, I'm afootballist, football positive for everyone else, and football-neutral for myself. 


And I can see, from the way friends react to football that they have a hugely different relationship with it to mine. They pay a lot of money to go to matches. They have parties based round football matches. They get drunk and jump up and down singing in the streets when their team wins. There's a lot of broadcast time devoted to it, and a lot of people watch it. It's significant enough that it's a huge international business. But I don't have those feelings about it.

 

I know this, without having to buy a season ticket and then regret spending the money as it turns out I'm not interested enough to go every week.

 

Football's quite ubiquitous in most countries, but sex is more ubiquitous in all of them. How is it possible for someone who isn't interested in sex to be oblivious to the difference between themselves and most other people?

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ryn2
33 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Football's quite ubiquitous in most countries, but sex is more ubiquitous in all of them. How is it possible for someone who isn't interested in sex to be oblivious to the difference between themselves and most other people?

It’s differently ubiquitous, at least here in the US.

 

Sports - not just conversations about sports - are performed and appreciated in relative public, so you get to see firsthand what being a rabid fan looks like.

 

The general idea that sex is fun and that people like sex and want to be sexy is commonly known in the US, but sex itself largely happens in private between individuals.  So, each person’s experiences are limited to themselves and their partner(s).

 

Most US people have at some point in their lives had the opportunity (or been forced) to participate in sports, either as an “athlete” or as a spectator, with many other people (typically first in childhood).  They have lots of firsthand experience with how others experience sports.  They have been at bars and friends’ houses when sports are being televised and seen for themselves how fans act, look, sound, and appear to feel.  Their families probably had opinions about sports and expressed them openly and regularly in front of the kids.  Opinions about sports are a hugely popular “safe” topic in the workplace, to the point where we are warned in international business prep NOT to rely so heavily on our sports talk and analogies “because the rest of the world is not like this.”

 

Sex is wink-wink, nudge-nudge, cool-people-act-in-on-the-joke, don’t-ask!, secret.  People do not routinely witness others having sex for comparison, and settings where they might (strip clubs, porn theatres, porn partes, swingers’ events) are both widely considered a bit shameful and heavily focused on arousal/libido rather on the potential emotional components.

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Telecaster68
Just now, ryn2 said:

Sports - not just conversations about sports - are performed and appreciated in relative public, so you get to see firsthand what being a rabid fan looks like.

Um. And sex isn't part of mainstream culture, with no depictions of people who are really into sex?

 

I really don't think there's sufficient difference between sports ubiquity, and the underlying assumption that everybody's into it in some way, and the way sex is represented in culture to break the analogy.

3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Sex is wink-wink, nudge-nudge, cool-people-act-in-on-the-joke, don’t-ask!, secret.  People do not routinely witness others having sex for comparison, and settings where they might (strip clubs, porn theatres, porn partes, swingers’ events) are both widely considered a bit shameful and heavily focused on arousal/libido rather on the potential emotional components.

But earlier on this thread, sex was everywhere apparently. Now nobody knows it's happening?

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Winged Whisperer

@Telecaster68 Your argumentation style reminds me of internet dude-bros trying to gotcha me when talking about a nuanced topic like free speech. Sex is both omnipresent, and not quite shown much of any depth of. Are you implying that either sex is everywhere and therefore everyone of all stripes of life know everything about sex there is to know, or it's completely invisible, with no other possibility in between? There really is no contradiction, I don't know why you keep trying to twist words to make it seem like there is. If you don't like nuance, examples and analogies or long explanations here's one simple sentence that's probably harder to twist: There is a lot of shallow exposure to sex in society.

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ryn2
10 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Um. And sex isn't part of mainstream culture, with no depictions of people who are really into sex?

 

I really don't think there's sufficient difference between sports ubiquity, and the underlying assumption that everybody's into it in some way, and the way sex is represented in culture to break the analogy.

But earlier on this thread, sex was everywhere apparently. Now nobody knows it's happening?

I don’t think “nobody knows it’s happening.”  US discussions about sex tend to be (either ritual complaints from the women about expectations/ritual complaints from the men about getting enough, with those conversations only had in single-gender settings, or) about a single physical act.

 

There’s a big learning difference between being in a packed arena and watching the crowd go wild (only to realize yeah, okay, I feel nothing) and hearing someone say “x is the best f**k I ever had!”  I’m not sure (outside of here) I’ve ever heard anyone talk about how important sex is to them, outside the physical need for release.  I’ve certainly never heard someone (outside here) talk about how sex bonds people emotionally and is a way some people need to be able to express and feel love.

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James121
3 hours ago, ryn2 said:

The problem is, people who “don’t really want sex” don’t have “really wanting sex” to compare to so they often *don’t* know “something is wrong”

🤦‍♂️🤦‍♂️

But they don’t want sex ******AT ALL******

 

Why is there any need to make a comparison?

They don’t want sex AT.........ALL

 

I’m very bored of being told that I don’t understand and I’m being wilfully ignorant when everyone picks up at school and I’m their social settings and at work and on the tv and in the media that people do tend want sex. Yes there is often an unrealistic portrayal that people (especially women) are like sex machines and are always up for it (which isn’t true) but asexuals do not want sex at all.

 

There is no need to make a comparison whatsoever. If they only wanted sex once every 5-6 weeks I would totally understand confusion but remembering that asexuals have NO innate desire for partnered sex you’d have thought that maybe, just maybe there would be a glimmer of hope that would guess something is up.

 

3 hours ago, Winged Whisperer said:

Knowing they won't ever want sex is having the characteristics of asexuality. I JUST told you how people can not understand the possibility of those characteristics existing. You're being willfully ignorant at this point.

Unless you are in a relationship and get married before you start having sex I fail to see the ability to not work it out. It’s not wilfully ignorant to not believe something you find absolutely utterly ridiculous. 

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Telecaster68
4 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

@Telecaster68 Your argumentation style reminds me of internet dude-bros trying to gotcha me when talking about a nuanced topic like free speech. Sex is both omnipresent, and not quite shown much of any depth of. Are you implying that either sex is everywhere and therefore everyone of all stripes of life know everything about sex there is to know, or it's completely invisible, with no other possibility in between? There really is no contradiction, I don't know why you keep trying to twist words to make it seem like there is. If you don't like nuance, examples and analogies or long explanations here's one simple sentence that's probably harder to twist: There is a lot of shallow exposure to sex in society.

I'm genuinely confused about how asexuals can feel uncomfortable by the ubiquity of sex in culture, and not see that this is because it's really important to most people.

 

And yep, when someone tries to justify something by only alluding to one of those things without acknowledging the other, I'm quite happy to gotcha their ass.

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James121
6 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

Are you implying that either sex is everywhere and therefore everyone of all stripes of life know everything about sex 

Please check various threads on Aven when multiple asexuals insist it’s impossible to avoid it.

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ryn2
3 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

There is a lot of shallow exposure to sex in society.

This, which is why I distinguished earlier between sex-repulsed aces and aces who are not sex-repulsed.

 

People who (are okay with sex before marriage, and) are sex-repulsed likely do notice they are different than the apparent norm (though, as several have mentioned, the advice they get if they seek help is often just “you haven’t found the right person”).

 

People who are not sex-repulsed don’t dislike having sex.  They can relate to the idea of having sex, may have had it and thought it was fine, etc.  There’s no public exposure to the parts of the experience where their actual differences arise.

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Telecaster68
6 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

 I’m not sure (outside of here) I’ve ever heard anyone talk about how important sex is to them, outside the physical need for release.  I’ve certainly never heard someone (outside here) talk about how sex bonds people emotionally and is a way some people need to be able to express and feel love.

Song lyrics, maybe? It's not so much that any single cultural artefact would tell you unequivocally that sex is important, but the sheer amount of focus on sex in culture. It doesn't happen by accident.

 

It's possible that what you hear as the physical need for release is actually meant as much more, and sex is being used both literally and as a metaphor at the same time.

 

Understanding that isn't down to sexual knowledge surely, but comprehension ability, just like being able to understand any metaphor.

 

 

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ryn2
4 minutes ago, James121 said:

But they don’t want sex ******AT ALL******

There is a major meaning difference between these two sentences, both of which could be summarized as “I don’t want sex.”

 

”I never, ever want to have sex (again) in my life.”

 

”Sex is okay but, if I never had sex again, I wouldn’t miss it.”

 

I get the sense you think all ace people feel the first version, from puberty on.

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ryn2
10 minutes ago, James121 said:

Unless you are in a relationship and get married before you start having sex I fail to see the ability to not work it out. It’s not wilfully ignorant to not believe something you find absolutely utterly ridiculous. 

As someone who appears to have been very clear of your sexuality for a long time, you’re not really qualified to comment on what it’s like to experience *not* being clear on it.

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Winged Whisperer
13 minutes ago, James121 said:

Unless you are in a relationship and get married before you start having sex I fail to see the ability to not work it out. It’s not wilfully ignorant to not believe something you find absolutely utterly ridiculous. 

What's the point in coming to a forum and trying to have a discussion if you won't believe the personal lived experiences of those you're talking to?

 

12 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

 

And yep, when someone tries to justify something by only alluding to one of those things without acknowledging the other, I'm quite happy to gotcha their ass.

Except we explained in detail dozens of times already how those two things do coexist, how they're not in conflict and acknowledged both, yet you're still here trying to act like a smart ass. Seriously go fuck yourself. For someone who keeps going on about metaphor comprehension, you sure do lack basic reading comprehension.

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ryn2
6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Song lyrics, maybe? It's not so much that any single cultural artefact would tell you unequivocally that sex is important, but the sheer amount of focus on sex in culture. It doesn't happen by accident.

 

It's possible that what you hear as the physical need for release is actually meant as much more, and sex is being used both literally and as a metaphor at the same time.

 

Understanding that isn't down to sexual knowledge surely, but comprehension ability, just like being able to understand any metaphor.

 

 

You have to have exposure to it in order to hear it as a metaphor, though.  Otherwise, the message (in the US) is that:

1) people like orgasms

2) men, especially, get better orgasms from sex with someone (young and pretty) than they do from their own hands

3) people will go to a lot of extremes for those good orgasms

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anisotropic
38 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm genuinely confused about how asexuals can feel uncomfortable by the ubiquity of sex in culture, and not see that this is because it's really important to most people.

Hypothesis: these may be different demographics.

 

Sex-repulsed asexuals may be uncomfortable with the omnipresence of sex and feel something is wrong with them. Because sex matters to them, in a negative way, and hearing about sex keeps reminding them if it.

 

But sex-indifferent asexuals might merely feel "not super into it" in the way that someone might not care for sports (but sees it's popular with others) -- neither seeing it as an important thing in either positive or negative way.

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InquisitivePhilosopher
43 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Song lyrics, maybe? It's not so much that any single cultural artefact would tell you unequivocally that sex is important, but the sheer amount of focus on sex in culture. It doesn't happen by accident.

 

It's possible that what you hear as the physical need for release is actually meant as much more, and sex is being used both literally and as a metaphor at the same time.

 

Understanding that isn't down to sexual knowledge surely, but comprehension ability, just like being able to understand any metaphor.

This study, about how most cultures in the world don't romantically kiss a significant other and how it's "seemingly a learned behavior from Western societies" might interest you. Most of my relatives' original culture was not from the West, and they didn't place much interest in romantic kissing, affectionate behaviors, sex, etc., so this study sounds right to me.

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James121
50 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

What's the point in coming to a forum and trying to have a discussion if you won't believe the personal lived experiences of those you're talking to?

The purpose of coming on a forum isn’t always so that you can opinion changed. If I directed you t a forum called ‘I changed an asexual in to a sex lover with great sex’ would you change your opinion about things if people kept telling you to?

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