James121

Would you leave

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ryn2
11 minutes ago, nanogretchen4 said:

The fact is, I am not willing to have a mixed orientation relationship unless both me and my partner give informed consent to a mixed orientation relationship from the very beginning. I have a right to decide whether or not I want to embark on a mixed relationship. If I find out late in the game that I am already in a mixed relationship I didn't give informed consent to, I will end the relationship, as is my absolute right. It is valid to feel whatever emotions I would feel in that terrible situation. I'm not obligated to be in a mixed orientation relationship. I am not obligated to be okay with a partner's much too late revelation of an incompatible orientation. I am not obligated to believe whatever excuses they give.

And that’s all perfectly fine and reasonable, for you.  It’s when you start extending it out to how everyone does/should feel, what all/many aces are doing, what everyone wants, etc., that I find it problematic.

 

You - and anyone else - are welcome (and wise) to know your own rules and boundaries and to do your best to keep any potential relationships aligned with them.

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SCPDX

As a member of team been there done that: I’m hunkering down for staying in the celibate marriage. If I leave, I destroy my family (economics are such that my wife would have to move 10-15 hours away). So I’d get to have more sex, but the costs are borne by my children? No thanks. 

 

I allegedly have an open marriage (her idea). What that means in reality is that I got to have really fun sex with an amazing woman while on a business trip once without feeling guilty about it. And although that was a one-time deal, that woman is one of my best friends now. 

 

I’d like to meet someone similarly situated to me where we can treat sex like a hobby that we enjoy but our spouses aren’t into. But I’m rapidly realizing that that’s pure fantasy. I might as well say I want to commute by unicorn to work. 

 

The deal with all of these (leaving, celibacy, cheating/poly) none of these are anything I WANT to do. Each of them is a shit sandwich. I’d rather be having regular, enjoyable sex with my wife. And I don’t get to. And 19 years in, still feel the same way about her as I did when we were dating. Makes it hurt even more. 

 

 

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Pan Ficto. (on hiatus?)
8 hours ago, James121 said:

I think that’s sometimes the way a sexual person views an asexual or low libido spouse who stops sex completely or nearly completely. If my wife restricts sex to the odd occasion once every 5-8 weeks like she used to, or dare I say if she removed it completely, then she is removing my right to a sex life. That’s as much a theft as anything.

Your 'right' to have sex? No one has a 'right' to have sex, for a start. That attitude is the fastest way to make someone not want sex with you. But you twisted what I said. It's still WITHIN the relationship and not being shared around with others, even if neither of you are using it. Like the dildo in the draw. Even if she's not using it you're still stealing her property if you take it and share it around with other women.

 

I was talking about cheating, which is sharing something private around with others that's meant to be stay solely between the two of you even if neither of you are using it.

 

If you're so unhappy that you need to go and get you're cock sloppy in other women's genitalia though then you're better off ending the relationship. Then you can go and exact your 'right' to have sex over whatever women will have you. :) 

 

....I better go shower now though. The attitude that someone has a 'right' to have sex just because they're in a relationship makes me feel so gross, like watching Jeremy Kyle. Yuck. Funnily enough the guys I've been with who don't have that attitude get enthusiastic sex twice a day from me because I find the lack of that attitude so arousing, the lack of that attitude makes me want cock. Someone thinking they have a right to sex though? Instant asexuality. Haha.

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SusannaC

Ficto, here is where your analogy confuses me about the dildo in my drawer:  the dildo is something I use when I AM in the mood.. if I NEVER use it, it doesn’t matter what happens to it.  It’s essentially forgotten and not of interest.  My husbands penis is obviously not MINE although I thought the understanding was he would use it exclusively with me when we married.   Now, since he has chosen to close it away forever, like the forgotten dildo analogy, then what does it matter, to him or me?  

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SusannaC

Similarly, my decision to “dust off my vagina” and use it again after 17 + years- does it really mean I am lending out what is HIS?   I don’t look at it that way anymore, maybe because I view him as more of a brother after all this time....The marriage terms regarding sex were broken - or terminated- or abandoned long ago but the other complexities of so many years spent together still remain

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GoneForGood
3 minutes ago, SusannaC said:

Similarly, my decision to “dust off my vagina” and use it again after 17 + years- does it really mean I am lending out what is HIS?   I don’t look at it that way anymore, maybe because I view him as more of a brother after all this time....The marriage terms regarding sex were broken - or terminated- or abandoned long ago but the other complexities of so many years spent together still remain

I have been married twice. I don't recall either set of vows including that I had to be a sex slave. There was a bit about "forsaking all others" though

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SusannaC
Posted (edited)

The asexual would be a sex “slave” if they are forced to have sex against their will.  So does it also follow that the sexual is also a “slave” in the sense that he/she is being forced to NOT have sex, in a relationship that started under those terms?  Opinion please.  

Edited by SusannaC

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GoneForGood
1 minute ago, SusannaC said:

The asexual would be a sex “slave” if they are forced to have sex against their will.  So does it also follow that the sexual is also a “slave” in the sense that he/she is being forced to NOT have sex, in an a relationship that started under those terms?  Opinion please.  

Being raped is far worse than being told you should not rape

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SusannaC

I understand that being “forced” to have sex is a form of emotional as well as physical abuse.  Doesn’t the person who is suddenly (or not so suddenly) withheld that part of the relationship with their mate also being abused?  It seems to be abuse in the sense that it messes with the sexual partners mind and physical, emotional well-being.  Just a thought.🤔

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GoneForGood

Demanding the right of bodily autonomy is not abusing anyone. If one person does not want to be in the relationship that they are in they should end it, not violate the other person.

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SusannaC

Demanding the “right of bodily autonomy” just sounds like a cold way of saying “don’t touch me anymore”.  Which of course could greatly confuse, disturb, upset- (freak out!) the loving sexual partner, who expresses love through sex..... definitely a huge mismatch going on, and I agree should probably end.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, MakeLoveNotWar said:

I have been married twice. I don't recall either set of vows including that I had to be a sex slave. There was a bit about "forsaking all others" though

I thought this as well but it turns out there are some fairly common religious (and perhaps cultural) traditions where sex is included in the marriage contract.  As neither of my marriages were religious ceremonies and I’m not part of those traditions I had no idea...

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GoneForGood
5 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I thought this as well but it turns out there are some fairly common religious (and perhaps cultural) traditions where sex is included in the marriage contract.  As neither of my marriages were religious ceremonies and I’m not part of those traditions I had no idea...

Probably the same traditions where you don't have a choice in who you marry.

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ryn2
Just now, MakeLoveNotWar said:

Probably the same traditions where you don't have a choice in who you marry.

No, actually, the ones I read/talked to people about weren’t.  They just weren’t things I’d encountered personally.  Apparently a fair number of mainstream Christian churches treat sex as a large and important part of married life.

 

Not commenting on those traditions; just noting that - as I was a bit surprised to find out - some of those stating sex was part of their marital contract were neither exaggerating nor just “selectively interpreting” vague phrases like “to have and to hold.”

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GoneForGood

I am more than a little sickened by that

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ryn2

(I grew up in a family that didn’t practice but hailed from a fairly Puritanical tradition - if it’s in any way enjoyable, it’s a sin! - in an area where most of my friends were white US Catholics - it’s not for enjoyment, just for procreation! - so that mindset was foreign to me)

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GoneForGood

I was raised Southern Baptist

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ryn2

A positive thing several people mentioned was that their churches now discuss sexual compatibility in a supportive way during premarital counseling.  That might help facilitate conversations people are hesitant to have, or have no idea there’s a reason to have, on their own.

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Serran
2 hours ago, SusannaC said:

I understand that being “forced” to have sex is a form of emotional as well as physical abuse.  Doesn’t the person who is suddenly (or not so suddenly) withheld that part of the relationship with their mate also being abused?  It seems to be abuse in the sense that it messes with the sexual partners mind and physical, emotional well-being.  Just a thought.🤔

Ok... I am about to join Ficto in needing a shower after this thread.

 

Saying I will no longer have sex with you is in no way abuse. Everyone has a right to say my body isnt being used sexually anymore, if they dont want it. I dont care if you are married, dating or single. You never owe someone sex. And saying no is never abuse. Period. End of. And the idea not having sex with someone cause they want it is abusing them is absolutely disgusting and thinking like that is probably why spousal rape took so frickin long to outlaw, leading to decades of actual abuse being given to people who had no legal protection. 

 

Yes the person has a right to say then I am getting sex elsewhere - I dont consider it cheating if you are honest and put it out there, cause then it is the one not wanting opens choice to leave. They also have the right to leave and find someone who will give sex. And of course the rejection can hurt... 

 

And implying rape and saying no to your spouse are anywhere near comparable and saying both are abuse and acting like they are equal (which yeah that post comes off as that) is, as a rape victim, pretty offensive. But, I guess since I had said no to my partner and "abused" him, he was just giving me a taste of my own medicine by abusing me by taking it... 

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Philip027
Quote

However, I would be very angry if my spouse revealed that they were asexual after the wedding. I would have extreme difficulty believing that they hadn't deceived me on purpose and it would be really hard to trust them ever again.

 

Quote

if my wife suddenly announces that she’s realised she’d like to be a man I wouldn’t accept any pitiful excuses that she’s only just realised. Those doubts/feelings of confusion would have been there from her teens and certainly well before we met.

Except that's not always how ace/trans realizations play out.  People don't always "just know"

 

Certainly explains your attitudes, though.

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anisotrophic

I used to be periodically suicidal and self-hating. I felt "never good enough". That's no longer true. I am much happier. It could be due to other factors, but,

 

I think this caused enormous pain. I wonder if the fact that I was otherwise loved -- the resulting cognitive dissonance, over the years -- made it better... or made it worse. I also wonder if it contributed to my shift in gender identity. (I don't think I can put it back.)

 

I don't know why we're comparing it to rape. I think it's disingenuous to think it's not a form of trauma. A different one, that grinds your self esteem to bits, a private pain others won't... can't understand. I don't think my experience was anyone's fault. It's much better now.

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Telecaster68

The only people who ever, ever make an argument that sex isn't expected in marriage  - not a legal right, but expected in the sense that cohabitation and communication are expected - are aces.

 

I'm not sure how much of that is ignorance and how much is naivete.

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Serran
4 hours ago, anisotropic said:

I used to be periodically suicidal and self-hating. I felt "never good enough". That's no longer true. I am much happier. It could be due to other factors, but,

 

I think this caused enormous pain. I wonder if the fact that I was otherwise loved -- the resulting cognitive dissonance, over the years -- made it better... or made it worse. I also wonder if it contributed to my shift in gender identity. (I don't think I can put it back.)

 

I don't know why we're comparing it to rape. I think it's disingenuous to think it's not a form of trauma. A different one, that grinds your self esteem to bits, a private pain others won't... can't understand. I don't think my experience was anyone's fault. It's much better now.

Trauma comes from any pain in life. Pain and depression doesnt make an action abuse. 

 

Breaking up with someone can make them suicidal, that doesnt make it abuse. 

 

Not wanting kids can make someone depressed, doesnt make it abuse.

 

We are comparing it because I have no idea. Because someone here responded to being told to not rape isnt as bad as rape with basically "well, both are abuse, equally bad" which is plain offensive BS. 

 

Yes, most people expect sex in any relationship - however, no one has a right to it from their spouse, no one is entitled to their spouses body. Yes it hurts for them when it isnt a thing their partner wants. That doesnt make their partner a bad person, it means they are incompatible and it sucks like crazy when you end up being incompatible with a person you love. And it would be nice if people always knew what they actually wanted, but not everyone is introspective or experienced enough to know til they are in it. 

 

My grandmother is 83 and still hurts over losing her ex husband from over 30 years ago, cause he didnt want tied down and got an itch to wander as a free man with no kids or wife again. My brother got depressed and stopped working or doing anything for 6 months cause he and his secondary girlfriend broke up cause her husband ended up being not OK with poly. 

 

Being incompatible and not finding out until you are invested sucks and hurts. It isnt your partner abusing you though. It is you wanting different things in life, even if you thought you wanted the same things. And either figuring it out or moving apart. 

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Sally
7 hours ago, Serran said:

Saying I will no longer have sex with you is in no way abuse. Everyone has a right to say my body isnt being used sexually anymore, if they dont want it.

^^ Absolutely.  

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anisotrophic

@Serran @Sally

 

I did not use the word "abuse".

 

You responded with a lot of text saying it is not "abuse".

 

This conversation seems to be obsessed with that particular word choice -- which is not one I made or used -- maybe it would be more productive to talk about the meaning of that word, without inferences of pro-rape attitudes (which frankly strikes me as a strawman).

 

If you don't think it was traumatic (or "sufficiently traumatic"), I think I would say: as I alluded to earlier with "private pain", part of what hurts is/was the sense that almost nobody will understand how it hurt, unless it happened to them. That makes it isolating, and isolation is also painful.

 

The direction this conversation has taken -- to describe and dismiss a statement of pain as "entitled to their spouses body" and... endorsement of rape -- seems only to confirm for me that people don't tend to understand or respond with much sensitivity.

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ryn2
3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

The only people who ever, ever make an argument that sex isn't expected in marriage  - not a legal right, but expected in the sense that cohabitation and communication are expected - are aces.

 

I'm not sure how much of that is ignorance and how much is naivete.

It’s not (for me) about “expected.”  It was the people asserting that the lack of sex is (not just against expectations,  but) a legal breach of contract that essentially renders the marriage agreement null and void.

 

Where I live, for a civil ceremony, that’s true if (and only if) the couple never has sex even one single time.  There is no provision beyond that, so I thought people were exaggerating.  Apparently some aren’t.

 

Locally the law causes some concern for same-sex (especially female/female) couples.  It logically would for ace couples (and potentially some mixed and disabled couples) as well.

 

It hasn’t come off the books, though.

 

tl;dr I was personally surprised some “Western” marriage contracts dictated sex beyond consummation, not that people as a whole expect their marriages will include sex.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, anisotropic said:

I did not use the word "abuse".

 

You responded with a lot of text saying it is not "abuse".

Another poster above you did.  I read their responses as being upset with what that other poster said, and not feeling that the pain you describe qualifies for that label (not because it’s insufficiently severe, but because the actions leading to it don’t meet their definition of abuse), not as a rejection of/disregard for the severity of the pain.  I read them as actually agreeing with you about the severity and potential impact.

 

Maybe I misinterpreted, though.

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GoneForGood
9 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

tl;dr I was personally surprised some “Western” marriage contracts dictated sex beyond consummation, not that people as a whole expect their marriages will include sex.

This disgusts me, I am glad that I am getting married in Finland where even consummation is not a requirement. Making marriage require sex says that they believe it is only about creating more soldiers and incubators.

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ryn2
11 minutes ago, MakeLoveNotWar said:

they believe it is only about creating more soldiers and incubators.

The laws (here) are still based around marriage as a way to stablize and reward two-person, heterosexual households for purposes of birthing and raising children, yes.

 

To some people that’s a very dated mindset... but to (more) others it’s still the way things should be.

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iff
1 hour ago, MakeLoveNotWar said:

This disgusts me, I am glad that I am getting married in Finland where even consummation is not a requirement. Making marriage require sex says that they believe it is only about creating more soldiers and incubators.

Here in Ireland, a marriage is "voidable" if it is unable to be consummated. However unable is different to unwilling to consummate.

 

I do think though the government act gibing protections to cohabiting couples does preclude asexual couples, though that would be a matter for courts if it ever got to the courts.

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