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James121

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9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Still doesn't explain how the media is creating these needs though.

I don’t think anyone is saying the media are creating a need for sex.  As I said above, US media portray sex as an individual thing where people need to attract others in order to best engage.

 

The message is that people are horny, and the best way to fix being horny is to locate another horny person.

 

There’s nothing in there about it being a way to express or nurture love, strengthen relationships, etc.

 

If that’s your personal view you may see it in the media.  If it’s not, though, there’s nothing in typical US media portrayal that will put it there.

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Winged Whisperer
1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

In which case you didn't actually understand the importance in the first place, or you wouldn't have needed someone else to explain it to you.

And that's how asexuals can simultaneously be bombarded with sex in media and realize it is "important" and not understand the "real" importance of it. You realize the "real" importance of something through contrast, not through exposure. You'll understand that salt is important in cooking, but you gotta eat something that's too salty or unsalted to really understand that real significance.

 

4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

but the discussion was more about how many asexuals in general seem to simultaneous think society is oversexualised but not really understand it's of major importance to most of the population.

I am one of those asexuals, and that's what I'm trying to explain. Exposure alone doesn't signal the meat of the importance. It's like seeing every pro chef adding salt, but until you have something to contrast it with, you won't get that importance. If we had just a tiny bit of representation of mixed relationships or asexuality in media, we would have better contrasts to see that importance. There is no conflict between society normalizing sex while also not teaching it well enough.

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Telecaster68
3 minutes ago, InquisitivePhilosopher said:

some asexuals don't understand it; grew up in dysfunctional households, where their parents argued and didn't model affectionate behavior;

My childhood home was quite spectacularly fucked up and dysfunctional at times, and very little affection between my parents, let alone anything remotely sexual. The wider family was too reserved for that too. I only saw snogging on TV. I'm not buying this as an explanation. 

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nanogretchen4

Is the sexy dude holding women's deoderant or men's deoderant? Is he pointing out how not stinky he is because of this brand of deoderant? Or is he saying he doesn't like stinky women so women should use this deoderant?

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9 minutes ago, James121 said:

That’s not good enough. Sometimes things aren’t obvious and people have a right not be left in such a position. It’s about where your morals are really.

I’m just judging this based on my own morals and I firmly believe that I would disclose something as significant as a completely different sexuality. 

So, if you don’t ask and they don’t disclose, you can be righteously angry?  How does that really help you?

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I don’t think anyone is saying the media are creating a need for sex.  As I said above, US media portray sex as an individual thing where people need to attract others in order to best engage.

 

The message is that people are horny, and the best way to fix being horny is to locate another horny person.

 

There’s nothing in there about it being a way to express or nurture love, strengthen relationships, etc.

 

If that’s your personal view you may see it in the media.  If it’s not, though, there’s nothing in typical US media portrayal that will put it there.

Really? People having sex in romantic comedies and dramas are doing just because they're horny? Really? All that set up of a meeting of minds and pining for each other etc. is just a coincidence because they happen to both be alone in the same room when horniness strikes? Really?

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, nanogretchen4 said:

Is the sexy dude holding women's deoderant or men's deoderant? Is he pointing out how not stinky he is because of this brand of deoderant? Or is he saying he doesn't like stinky women so women should use this deoderant?

It's not logic nano, it's subliminal.

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Telecaster68
3 minutes ago, Winged Whisperer said:

You'll understand that salt is important in cooking, but you gotta eat something that's too salty or unsalted to really understand that real significance.

Actually no. If I saw a chef putting salt in everything, I'd understand that salt goes in everything, and even if I didn't know the reason, there clearly is a reason why.

 

It's easier to understand if I know the chemistry and how taste works, sure, but it's not preventing the basic understanding that food needs salt.

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4 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

So, if you don’t ask and they don’t disclose, you can be righteously angry?  How does that really help you?

Because eventually it will completely fuck up the relationship. Surely if you know something from the outset that is like to destroy the relationship given enough time, you are compelled to be honest about it.

 

You guys really do endorse the stealth mode of an asexual don’t you. Just outrageous.

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6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

So we're back to the happy coincidence theory. 

 

Thinking about what asexuals do and don't pick up from media representations of sex: there are very obviously (to me anyhow) different kinds of sex represented on TV and films, and often used to show something about the people involved as individuals and/or the state of their relationship. For instance: exciting first date sex; intensely emotional love making; playing out wider power dynamics sex; make up sex; bored marital sex; selfish sex; fun sex.

 

Would you say a lot asexuals tend to miss what's going on beyond the obvious fact of 'sex'? 

I think people observe TV, movies, etc., within their own context.

 

E.g., have you seen Jessica Jones?    She has a fair amount of sex.  To me, it doesn’t read as something that’s progressive or conveys a message about the state of her relationships with her various partners.  It does look like mutual convenience/happy coincidence.

 

I’m asking about a specific show because it’s hard to answer “does the sex in media speak to different people differently?” without comparing notes on a specific example.

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8 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Really? People having sex in romantic comedies and dramas are doing just because they're horny? Really? All that set up of a meeting of minds and pining for each other etc. is just a coincidence because they happen to both be alone in the same room when horniness strikes? Really?

I actually dislike romcoms and romantic dramas so my experience is more with the sex in action movies, but I was referring to advertising.

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3 minutes ago, James121 said:

Because eventually it will completely fuck up the relationship. Surely if you know something from the outset that is like to destroy the relationship given enough time, you are compelled to be honest about it.

 

You guys really do endorse the stealth mode of an asexual don’t you. Just outrageous.

What I meant was “how does being righteously angry help you avoid ending up in situations you want to avoid?”

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Telecaster68

Take your point, but I haven't seen Jessica Jones.

 

There's a BBC show that I think is available in the US called Wanderlust, about a couple who open their marriage, starring Toni Collette. There's a lot of sex, and a lot of different emotional notes to the sex. If you've seen it, it would be one to compare.

 

Another one: have you seen Basic Instinct? There's a particular scene where Michael Douglas has sex with his wife which is a really good bit of character development, and shows something about their relationship.

 

To generalise a bit: what sex scenes have you watched which developed character/plot, beyond 'now they've had sex', and how did you glean that information?

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

I actually dislike romcoms and romantic dramas so my experience is more with the sex in action movies, but I was referring to advertising.

If you're relying on advertising for your view of anything, you're pretty much screwed.

 

Asexuals, presumably, watch TV shows like anyone else.

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4 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I think people observe TV, movies, etc., within their own context.

 

E.g., have you seen Jessica Jones?    She has a fair amount of sex.  To me, it doesn’t read as something that’s progressive or conveys a message about the state of her relationships with her various partners.  It does look like mutual convenience/happy coincidence.

 

I’m asking about a specific show because it’s hard to answer “does the sex in media speak to different people differently?” without comparing notes on a specific example.

To me, at least, they actively portray it that way - when she and Luke Cage have sex, they are both pleased to finally be with someone else of superhuman strength as they don’t have to hold back like usual.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

To me, at least, they actively portray it that way - when she and Luke Cage have sex, they are both pleased to finally be with someone else of superhuman strength as they don’t have to hold back like usual.

A superhero show wouldn't strike me as a good place to expect to gain an understanding of actual sex.

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Take your point, but I haven't seen Jessica Jones.

 

There's a BBC show that I think is available in the US called Wanderlust, about a couple who open their marriage, starring Toni Collette. There's a lot of sex, and a lot of different emotional notes to the sex. If you've seen it, it would be one to compare.

 

Another one: have you seen Basic Instinct? There's a particular scene where Michael Douglas has sex with his wife which is a really good bit of character development, and shows something about their relationship.

 

To generalise a bit: what sex scenes have you watched which developed character/plot, beyond 'now they've had sex', and how did you glean that information?

Hm.  I’ve heard of Wanderlust but never seen it.

 

I did see Basic Instinct when it came out (so, a long time ago now).  The main thing I remember from it was about to power of sex to manipulate... but again it’s been a really long time.

 

I can’t think of a movie I’ve seen that used sex to portray relationship development (not tell you something about an individual) but I don’t know if that’s because of what I watch or because of how I watch it.

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7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

If you're relying on advertising for your view of anything, you're pretty much screwed.

 

Asexuals, presumably, watch TV shows like anyone else.

I’m not saying advertising is a good source; it’s just what I was referring to in the earlier post.

 

Not a TV-watcher personally so I’m not much help in terms of how current US TV shows portray sex.

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11 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

What I meant was “how does being righteously angry help you avoid ending up in situations you want to avoid?”

It doesn’t. At all. But it shouldn’t happen in the first place which would rule out the need for anger.

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3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

A superhero show wouldn't strike me as a good place to expect to gain an understanding of actual sex.

It’s probably not, but that’s not why I was watching it.

 

Interesting thought, though.  Once people are old enough to control the remote (parents no longer censoring), do they perhaps watch different types of shows based on their own preferences and therefore get exposed to different messages?

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Winged Whisperer
19 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Actually no. If I saw a chef putting salt in everything, I'd understand that salt goes in everything, and even if I didn't know the reason, there clearly is a reason why.

But that's just understanding on the most abstract level possible. Giving gifts are "important" but that significance varies a lot between person and person. As is kissing in relationships, some get tongue tied, some just do it on the lips. Clearly for allosexuals like you sex is way more important than kissing right? Or maybe I'm mistaken.

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Telecaster68
15 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Hm.  I’ve heard of Wanderlust but never seen it.

 

I did see Basic Instinct when it came out (so, a long time ago now).  The main thing I remember from it was about to power of sex to manipulate... but again it’s been a really long time.

 

I can’t think of a movie I’ve seen that used sex to portray relationship development (not tell you something about an individual) but I don’t know if that’s because of what I watch or because of how I watch it.

Wanderlust is actually a pretty good portrayal of sex in a long term relationship. It's very sharp.

 

So the Basic Instinct scene is this one: Michael Douglas, the cop, has been to see Sharon Stone, who's gleefully toyed with him using her sexual magnetism, and is clearly wound up by her sexuality and the possibility she's the murderer. He goes home to his wife, Bonnie Bedelia, who we've seen a little before and they have a fairly tepid, mundane relationship. Now he's been riled up by Stone, as soon as he gets home, he fucks his wife hard and aggressively and she's clearly not used to it, and not that keen on it, but lets him. 

 

ETA: so from that we've learned that Stone has really got under Douglas's skin and he wants to fuck her but knows he shouldn't; he's trying to sublimate this by being good and having marital sex instead; marital sex isn't usually like that, presumably far more mundane, so the rest of their relationship is too, probably; his wife is a bit shocked by this sudden aggressive sexuality but willing to go with it. All this stuff is set up to explode as his character gets more and more under pressure, which pushes the story along. 

 

None of that is explained explicitly. It's just obvious from watching them (and seeing it play out). I'm wondering whether asexuals would tend to get all that, or just wonder why Douglas is now so horny after a tiring day at work?

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, Winged Whisperer said:

But that's just understanding on the most abstract level possible. Giving gifts are "important" but that significance varies a lot between person and person. As is kissing in relationships, some get tongue tied, some just do it on the lips. Clearly for allosexuals like you sex is way more important than kissing right? Or maybe I'm mistaken.

But it seems many asexuals don't even understand it in an abstract way, even that's all which is needed.

 

Kissing is part of sex, as far as I'm concerned. I don't mean it only happens in the context of fucking, I mean it's innately sexual activity, and as such, I'm just as keen on it as the rest of sex. If it happens without fucking, it's kind of an appetiser, or tease; some of that is fine, but if it was only ever kissing without getting to the main course, I'd be frustrated.

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3 minutes ago, James121 said:

It doesn’t. At all. But it shouldn’t happen in the first place which would rule out the need for anger.

If you ask, it won’t*.  If you don’t ask, you run the risk of getting burned.  Which serves you best in the long run?

 

* yes, I get it that some people lie on purpose, but someone who lies when asked wouldn’t disclose either so in those cases you’re burned either way.

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Telecaster68
6 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Once people are old enough to control the remote (parents no longer censoring), do they perhaps watch different types of shows based on their own preferences and therefore get exposed to different messages?

I'd expect so, like a kind of echo chamber. Asexuals have no interest in sex as part of a relationship, so they don't watch dramas where it's a big part, so they continue not to 'get it'.

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13 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

So the Basic Instinct scene is this one: Michael Douglas, the cop, has been to see Sharon Stone, who's gleefully toyed with him using her sexual magnetism, and is clearly wound up by her sexuality and the possibility she's the murderer. He goes home to his wife, Bonnie Bedelia, who we've seen a little before and they have a fairly tepid, mundane relationship. Now he's been riled up by Stone, as soon as he gets home, he fucks his wife hard and aggressively and she's clearly not used to it, and not that keen on it, but lets him. 

 

None of that is explained explicitly. It's just obvious from watching them. I'm wondering whether asexuals would tend to get all that, or just wonder why Douglas is now so horny after a tiring day at work?

I “got it” the way you are explaining it - no question to me why he was horny - but saw it as another example of Sharon’s character manipulating him - proving to him that he’s not as far above her level as he thinks he is.

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12 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

…So the Basic Instinct scene is this one: Michael Douglas, the cop, has been to see Sharon Stone, who's gleefully toyed with him using her sexual magnetism, and is clearly wound up by her sexuality and the possibility she's the murderer. He goes home to his wife, Bonnie Bedelia, who we've seen a little before and they have a fairly tepid, mundane relationship. Now he's been riled up by Stone, as soon as he gets home, he fucks his wife hard and aggressively and she's clearly not used to it, and not that keen on it, but lets him. 

 

None of that is explained explicitly. It's just obvious from watching them. I'm wondering whether asexuals would tend to get all that, or just wonder why Douglas is now so horny after a tiring day at work?

I think it depends, as some asexuals experience libido, occasionally, and masturbate, while some asexuals don't have a libido at all. It's possible that the former might understand it a bit, theoretically, because they occasionally feel libido, but also might not understand it, if, for example, their libido isn't currently aroused or they, themselves, know they wouldn't satisfy themselves the way that character did (so, they wouldn't relate to that character's desire.) 
 

Quote

 

I'd expect so, like a kind of echo chamber. Asexuals have no interest in sex as part of a relationship, so they don't watch dramas where it's a big part, so they continue not to 'get it'.

 

Some do watch those dramas with sex scenes, to, briefly/quickly satisfy their libido and masturbate, themselves.

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6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'd expect so, like a kind of echo chamber. Asexuals have no interest in sex as part of a relationship, so they don't watch dramas where it's a big part, so they continue not to 'get it'.

...but, unlike an echo chamber, sex is pretty pervasive so it appears in content selected for other reasons... but perhaps not with the same message.

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'd expect so, like a kind of echo chamber. Asexuals have no interest in sex as part of a relationship, so they don't watch dramas where it's a big part, so they continue not to 'get it'.

I'm not sure whether watching a drama like that would be much of a help though. IMO they merely depict the "symptoms" rather than to actually explain anything. Which is quite reasonable since most of the people watching it will understand the mechanics at work... but just looking at a rash won't make you understand where it comes from and what to do about it if you're a layman.

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1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

If you ask, it won’t*.  If you don’t ask, you run the risk of getting burned.  Which serves you best in the long run?

 

* yes, I get it that some people lie on purpose, but someone who lies when asked wouldn’t disclose either so in those cases you’re burned either way.

I can’t be any clearer than this. I’m probably gonna have people jump up at down and campaign against me for saying this but....

 

Asexuals are estimated at being 2% of the population. 3%? 4%?

 

Sexuals make up the other be them straight or gay.

when a man arrives for a date and Jemma is actually Jason, he knows that this isn’t going to work.

When a man arrives for a date and Jemma is Jemma the asexual he has every right to assume that Jemma is sexual as per 95+% of the population.

Jemma the asexual should by right disclose she is asexual simply because it’s the right thing to do.

Whether you agree or not, asexuals are in the minority and are often blindsiding people because of how uncommon they are.

You should disclose it in the interest of fairness and to save so much heartache down the line.

Often they are not disclosing and I suspect this is because they have a massively limited chance of finding a companion if their choice is limited to the asexual community.

 

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