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uhtred

What is typical and does it matter

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uhtred
24 minutes ago, James121 said:

Your wife’s opinions on sex centre around her desire or lack of and what is important to her. Quite clearly she has no regard for how significant sex is to you. 

Often enough, when someone is not interested in sex or has little interest, be them asexual or low libido, they will find any way they can to demonise sex and demonise you for wanting it.

 

What is important to your wife in the marriage? What really makes her feel special? What is it that if it was taken away, she would suffer deeply?

Find it, take it away, make her suffer and if she objects and says she is upset by its removal, tell her romantic movies are an over exaggeration. Then find a way to demonise what she wants and her for wanting it.

 

If you do this guess what will happen? The marriage falls apart. Why? Because you took away what was important to them but it’s ok that she did it to you right?

The thing about loving someone is that you don't want to hurt them even if they have hurt you 

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nanogretchen4

Uhtred, if you ever become so bitter that you are consumed by revenge fantasies, please just divorce your wife instead.

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uhtred
Just now, nanogretchen4 said:

Uhtred, if you ever become so bitter that you are consumed by revenge fantasies, please just divorce your wife instead.

Agreed.  But don't worry, while I have a great variety of fantasies,  none of them ever involve harming my wife in any way.   (really - the idea is just so distasteful that I can't allow it in my brain)

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Serran
20 minutes ago, uhtred said:

The thing about loving someone is that you don't want to hurt them even if they have hurt you 

Indeed..

 

And especially when the intent in not giving sex isnt "lets hurt my husband" it is a genuine lack of interest. And she seems to honestly not get how sex works for others, which can be hard when you have never experienced it. And the view can be negative when it is a stress in your life.. so the more stressed about sex she feels probably the more negative she gets about it. 

 

Hopefully she doesnt try to be mean and make you seem a pervert as much as her not seeing sex as a thing makes you feel that way since she considers a normal libido super high?

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uhtred
13 hours ago, Serran said:

Indeed..

 

And especially when the intent in not giving sex isnt "lets hurt my husband" it is a genuine lack of interest. And she seems to honestly not get how sex works for others, which can be hard when you have never experienced it. And the view can be negative when it is a stress in your life.. so the more stressed about sex she feels probably the more negative she gets about it. 

 

Hopefully she doesnt try to be mean and make you seem a pervert as much as her not seeing sex as a thing makes you feel that way since she considers a normal libido super high?

I don't think she intends it to be hurtful.

 

Its possible that she considers the situation a case of doing what is "reasonable".  eg: she know that I want sex more than she does, so she uses her perception of "typical" to decide how much sex it is reasonable for us to have.  There is however a weird "controlling" ( maybe subconscious) aspect: to the best I can remember she has never wanted sex when I initiated in any way - she has to be the one to initiate. 

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ryn2

Have you talked to her about why?  Maybe she has to pysch herself up for it, or get into a role.

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uhtred
11 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Have you talked to her about why?  Maybe she has to pysch herself up for it, or get into a role.

Unfortunately she is sex-talking repulsed.  Not sure that is really a thing, but she has enormous difficult talking about sex - more so than she has actually having sex. 

 

 

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Serran
16 hours ago, uhtred said:

I don't think she intends it to be hurtful.

 

Its possible that she considers the situation a case of doing what is "reasonable".  eg: she know that I want sex more than she does, so she uses her perception of "typical" to decide how much sex it is reasonable for us to have.  There is however a weird "controlling" ( maybe subconscious) aspect: to the best I can remember she has never wanted sex when I initiated in any way - she has to be the one to initiate. 

I know when I was having sex I didnt want, typical amounts mattered because I was like "I dont even like it, im giving you more than average, cant you just appreciate how much im giving ?" So maybe she feels a bit frustrated if she thinks you are asking for more than the norm from someone that wants none ? 

 

Which, vacation sex isnt outside the norm, but it sounds like she may be a bit stressed about the pressures for sex to be on her mind all the times she wouldnt normally think of it. If she has to initiate and figure out your needs. 

 

Might help to suggest a way you can let her know you would like sex without initiating, exactly. Like.. just a heads up reminder sort of thing ? It can be annoying to try to keep reminding yourself about a thing that is naturally not even on your mind. 

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uhtred
7 hours ago, Serran said:

I know when I was having sex I didnt want, typical amounts mattered because I was like "I dont even like it, im giving you more than average, cant you just appreciate how much im giving ?" So maybe she feels a bit frustrated if she thinks you are asking for more than the norm from someone that wants none ? 

 

Which, vacation sex isnt outside the norm, but it sounds like she may be a bit stressed about the pressures for sex to be on her mind all the times she wouldnt normally think of it. If she has to initiate and figure out your needs. 

 

Might help to suggest a way you can let her know you would like sex without initiating, exactly. Like.. just a heads up reminder sort of thing ? It can be annoying to try to keep reminding yourself about a thing that is naturally not even on your mind. 

I'm sure she feels that I want more than is "reasonable" (whatever that word means). Of course "normal" covers a huge amount of ground - there is a wide range in couples' sexual activity and its possible to get a wide range of answers for what is "normal"  (mean? median?  all couples? happy couples? similar age couples? etc etc etc.). 

 

The initiation problem is tricky.   Since she can't discuss sex, its difficult.  If she catches on that I'm in any way hinting at sex, she gets an immediate negative reaction.  She tends to not think of it herself - but then later seems surprised that I didn't bring it up.    Added confusion that she often talks about wanting sex in the future, but rarely in the present.  (before most vacations she indicates that she expects us to have sex, but then it doesn't happen).   If I bring it up, there is always some specific local reason we don't have sex. 

 

It sounds strange, and I know I'm missing something important. 

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ryn2

It sounds like she is okay mentioning sex... what specifically about talking about it doesn’t work for her?

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ryn2

I guess I should ask, too... has she told you she isn’t willing to talk about sex or are you inferring that from her behavior?

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Serran

Hmm. 

 

After many years of sex being an issue, talking about it can be just as draining (or more so) than having it. And, it can seem easier to do in abstract (so you mention having it later) then seem like it would ruin moments during (oh but this is nice, Ill offer sex later, no need to ruin this... ) 

 

Thats why I said maybe a signal you could work out. Like, something low pressure but she knows. A certain phrase, a mark on a calendar, etc. A gentle reminder sex has been a while and you want it a lot, but that she can not have to immediately jump into sex being a thing that moment and work herself up to it. 

 

 

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uhtred
On 1/5/2019 at 9:50 AM, ryn2 said:

I guess I should ask, too... has she told you she isn’t willing to talk about sex or are you inferring that from her behavior?

As far as talking about it, she is fine with her giving suggestions of future sex:  " I'm looking forward to our Venice trip and I hope we can spend some nice afternoons together in bed".    Then, when we get there,  she will find any excuse possible to avoid actually being in the hotel on any afternoon.

 

What is difficult is any sort of talk about our sex life.  Specific requests - like "maybe we can spend the afternoon in bed" are dismissed with a "local" excuse: "Sorry, I'm really tired / jetlagged / feeling sick / etc etc."  (none of which affect her interest in other things, and which I take to mean "I don't feel like it", which is OK).    Any attempt though to talk in general  gets deflected, or gets her  upset.    Its probably because she knows I'm not happy and that she can't do anything about it.   She is completely unable to talk about here sexual preferences, even when we do have sex - always responds with "you know what I like".   She will ask me, but clearly  just wants to have me tell her I want what she always does.  (any other suggestions are invariably turned down).   She will always agree with suggestions that we have sex more often in the future, but never acts on them in reality. 

 

Its all very awkward, in a way that is difficult to describe.  I know this sounds fuzzy, I'm having trouble describing it clearly. 

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, uhtred said:

As far as talking about it, she is fine with her giving suggestions of future sex:  " I'm looking forward to our Venice trip and I hope we can spend some nice afternoons together in bed".    Then, when we get there,  she will find any excuse possible to avoid actually being in the hotel on any afternoon.

 

What is difficult is any sort of talk about our sex life.  Specific requests - like "maybe we can spend the afternoon in bed" are dismissed with a "local" excuse: "Sorry, I'm really tired / jetlagged / feeling sick / etc etc."  (none of which affect her interest in other things, and which I take to mean "I don't feel like it", which is OK).    Any attempt though to talk in general  gets deflected, or gets her  upset.    Its probably because she knows I'm not happy and that she can't do anything about it.   She is completely unable to talk about here sexual preferences, even when we do have sex - always responds with "you know what I like".   She will ask me, but clearly  just wants to have me tell her I want what she always does.  (any other suggestions are invariably turned down).   She will always agree with suggestions that we have sex more often in the future, but never acts on them in reality. 

 

Its all very awkward, in a way that is difficult to describe.  I know this sounds fuzzy, I'm having trouble describing it clearly. 

I think many sexuals understand what you mean, from their own experience. 

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ryn2

So it’s not so much that she has problems talking about sex as it is that the idea of having sex makes her uncomfortable, then. She’s steering away from conversations that involve thinking about imminent sex.

 

I wonder why she initiates specific future references to sex herself, though.  “Maybe next weekend would be better” is different than “I hope we can do it next weekend.”

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Telecaster68
32 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

So it’s not so much that she has problems talking about sex as it is that the idea of having sex makes her uncomfortable, then. She’s steering away from conversations that involve thinking about imminent sex.

I don't see the difference. You're just spelling out the mechanics in more detail. 

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Sally
On 1/3/2019 at 3:57 PM, anisotropic said:

Oh come on. Did I sense something off? Sure. Did I know it was a universal and permanent absence? No. Neither of us did.

 

How does someone recognize it without knowing about it first? There's plenty of folks wandering in to these forums, wondering: "am I ace?" And there's plenty that say, "Oh wow, that's me!", not having heard of asexuality before.

Once we were aware, we talked about it just fine.

Except after the tenth or so discussion about it, asexuals tend to get a bit irritated (from what I read on AVEN).  

 

I understand how a sexual feels if their asexual-and-or-sex-disliking partner just doesn't show some  understanding about how difficult it is for the sexual to go without sex for a long time.  What I don't understand is how sexuals can come onto AVEN and talk about how this has been going on for YEARS, and wonder what they can do about it.  Were they living in some sort of Groundhog Day where the same thing happened over and over and over and  just NOW they want a fix to it?  

 

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but hearing this story over and over tries one's patience.   20 years of not-enough/not-good sex and you haven't taken some action?   

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Telecaster68

Uhtred's situation sounds very typical - asexual partner consistently promises change, offers excuses that are plausible, and we want to put the most creditable explanation and give them time to make good. 

 

And tempus fugit. 

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ryn2
33 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I don't see the difference. You're just spelling out the mechanics in more detail. 

I thought he might have meant she was uncomfortable talking about sex (like, a taboo or “something polite people don’t talk about” or “that’s gross; it makes me queasy”) in general, as opposed to resistant to discussing *them* having sex.

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ryn2
13 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Uhtred's situation sounds very typical - asexual partner consistently promises change, offers excuses that are plausible, and we want to put the most creditable explanation and give them time to make good. 

 

And tempus fugit. 

Unfortunately, though, the longer something persists without real pushback/action or plans for action the less it looks like a serious complaint/concern.

 

It ends up coming across like the guy who’s been threatening to quit because he *hates this job!* for the past 15 years.  People gave up taking him seriously at least 14 years ago.  Now it’s just “oh, that’s Ned... he says that all the time, but it’s just because he likes to b**ch.  He loves it here; he’s been here longer than any of us.”

 

Maybe he actually does hate it, but he hasn’t done what people who actually hate jobs usually do so his complaint gets written off as background noise.  If in year 16 he abruptly quits everyone will be as shocked as if he’d never said anything.

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Sally
43 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Uhtred's situation sounds very typical - asexual partner consistently promises change, offers excuses that are plausible, and we want to put the most creditable explanation and give them time to make good. 

 

And tempus fugit. 

Wow, what a nasty way to put it.   Kind of like the sexual ordered something and the asexual said they couldn't fill that order now but will try to do so.   Takes all the human emotional misery out of it.  

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Telecaster68

But that is what happens. Over and over, asexuals say they'll try to be more sexual but it turns out they can't. I'm not imputing blame, just saying they don't or can't follow through. 

 

The problem is at least as much that they haven't done as they've said as the lack of sex. If that feels like ignoring the human emotion, welcome to the club. 

 

As to giving more time making the problem look less.... Would you rather sexuals didn't back off? Isn't that 'pressuring'? 

 

I mean, wtf are we actually meant to do? 

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ryn2

I’m not blaming anyone... just pointing out that it’s human nature that things which read as “crying wolf” are taken less and less seriously over time.

 

If broken promises are at least as bad as no sex, and you see there’s a history of that, why keep asking for promises to start with?  Seems like it never gets the desired result and instead makes it worse for at least one (and potentially both) person(s).

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anisotrophic
1 hour ago, Sally said:

Were they living in some sort of Groundhog Day where the same thing happened over and over and over and  just NOW they want a fix to it?

idk. I guess the concept of asexuality, different attractions, and of it as an orientation -- it was a real game changer for us.

 

I was actually in counseling over my gender. Sometimes I wonder if the coincidental nature of that was fortunate, or a good sign (maybe we  caught it before we'd become too bitter with each other).

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anisotrophic

It's an orientation. There are things that can't be changed.

 

If partners try to change things as if it's a more "typical" sex life issue, isn't that doomed to repeated failure?

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James121
On 1/4/2019 at 3:14 AM, uhtred said:

The thing about loving someone is that you don't want to hurt them even if they have hurt you 

Absolutely correct.

Equally love is about addressing the issues that hurt your partner when said issues have been made known. What issues were addressed during your latest sexless vacation? I don’t mean to be aggressive or personal in the way I write, I’m just trying not to beat around the bush.

Its all well and good that we have the right attitude towards our spouses who we love, but at what point do we stand our ground and ask for a level playing ground?

Or maybe we can just completely capitulate as we don’t want to hurt them.

 

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uhtred
17 hours ago, ryn2 said:

So it’s not so much that she has problems talking about sex as it is that the idea of having sex makes her uncomfortable, then. She’s steering away from conversations that involve thinking about imminent sex.

 

I wonder why she initiates specific future references to sex herself, though.  “Maybe next weekend would be better” is different than “I hope we can do it next weekend.”

I think she *wants* to have a sex drive, but doesn't.  She imagines a happy passionate sex life, but when it comes down to it, never wants that "right now". I expect she doesn't really understand her feelings herself, recognizes here internal inconsistency and that bothers her.   All guesses though. 

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GoneForGood
3 minutes ago, uhtred said:

I think she *wants* to have a sex drive, but doesn't.  She imagines a happy passionate sex life, but when it comes down to it, never wants that "right now". I expect she doesn't really understand her feelings herself, recognizes here internal inconsistency and that bothers her.   All guesses though. 

Maybe she "wants" the drive because she really does love you but since she doesn't have one she cannot do it. One cannot will themselves a sex drive that one does not have any more than one can will themselves an extra arm on their body.

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uhtred
16 hours ago, Sally said:

Except after the tenth or so discussion about it, asexuals tend to get a bit irritated (from what I read on AVEN).  

 

I understand how a sexual feels if their asexual-and-or-sex-disliking partner just doesn't show some  understanding about how difficult it is for the sexual to go without sex for a long time.  What I don't understand is how sexuals can come onto AVEN and talk about how this has been going on for YEARS, and wonder what they can do about it.  Were they living in some sort of Groundhog Day where the same thing happened over and over and over and  just NOW they want a fix to it?  

 

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but hearing this story over and over tries one's patience.   20 years of not-enough/not-good sex and you haven't taken some action?   

Its tricky.  I'm sure situations vary , but mine:

 

I'm in m 50s, so when I started dating my wife, ideas of sexuality were different.  It was not unusual for women to not want sex before marriage. So I didn't take that lack of interest as important.  Then after we were married, sex was very rare - but there was always a reason.  As the statistics started to become more obvious, I started looking for solutions.  At the time though I had no idea asexuality was a "thing".   Was there something wrong with me? That is the usual suggestion when someones partner doesn't want sex : "work on yourself"  "man up",  "become  a better person". "become  more romantic".    I spent years on that. Meawhile there were brief bursts of activity that kept my hopes up. 

 

Years in it becomes more and more difficult to leave. You have a life together -a really good life. Since there is sometimes sex, there is this irrational hope that it will get better, coupled with what can only be called the horror of "abandoning" the person you truly love - and have sworn to have and to hold etc etc...

 

In retrospect its obvious what was going on.  Now?     Example: after a rather unhappy vacation where I (yet again) explained to my wife why I had been unhappy, we had sex 2X this weekend.  I think we've only had sex 2 days in a row one other time in 30 years.   Now of course my idiot brain is trying to tell me that maybe its "better" maybe she realizes what is going on and so I should give it some time..........

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uhtred
16 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I thought he might have meant she was uncomfortable talking about sex (like, a taboo or “something polite people don’t talk about” or “that’s gross; it makes me queasy”) in general, as opposed to resistant to discussing *them* having sex.

I think that is also true.   Its really difficult to tell.   She does seem to avoid any sort of discussions of sexuality. 

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