uhtred

What is typical and does it matter

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ryn2
2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

How does Uhtred 'insist' on more sex, then?

The same way his wife can insist on less or no sex; by saying “I can’t continue like this.  Unless we are consistently have sex x often by y timeframe I am not going to be able to stay in this relationship.”  I mean, he can word it however but that’s what it boils down to.

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ryn2
8 minutes ago, Sally said:

After being disappointed by the asexual time and time again, the sexual should make a decision as to what THEY, the sexual, should do for themselves.  If that means separation, so be it.   I think you have mentioned that you, yourself, have made such a decision.  Others will reach other types of decisions.  But for god's sake, DO something.

 

 

I would argue that doing nothing - staying with the situation as it is - is also a choice.  It’s deciding that the status quo is better than leaving, at least for the present.

 

Tele reached a point where that was no longer true and chose leaving instead.  He could have chosen to continue to stay if that worked better for him.

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Serran
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

The same way his wife can insist on less or no sex; by saying “I can’t continue like this.  Unless we are consistently have sex x often by y timeframe I am not going to be able to stay in this relationship.”  I mean, he can word it however but that’s what it boils down to.

Yep. Thats basically what it is. You say I need X, they respond with if they can give or not, decision to leave or stay is made. We do this with basically every major thing in relationships.

 

"I need kids"

"Well i dont want them"

"Then I cant stay with you"

 

"I need sex at least once a week"

"I cant do that"

"Then I cant stay"

 

"I need polyamory, living monogamous is killing me"

"I cant handle polyamory"

"Then I have to leave you"

 

Etc, etc..

 

It sucks. But it ends up being how relationships go with deal breaker incompatibilities

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ryn2
17 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

In effect, it has to be 'leave'. That's the only course of action we have.

 

We've had this conversation many times Sally, and we'll get to the point of me saying it comes down to the asexual saying 'my way or the highway' and you somehow managing to disagree. 

In this case, uhtred’s wife has not said she will never have sex with him... nor has she completely stopped having sex with him.

 

How do we value it?  Say one act of sex makes uhtred feel better for five days (I’m just making these numbers up), but it makes his wife feel worse for forty days.   What’s the proper balance there?  How do we know how much worse missing out on sex makes uhtred feel in comparison to how having sex affects his wife?  If he feels 2x worse than she does, does that adjust the numbers?  What if having sex makes his wife feel 10x worse than going without it makes him feel?

 

Point being, how do you really average “I want it 3x/week” with “I want it never”?  The midpoint could be once a week, or once a year, depending on the individuals.

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ryn2
11 minutes ago, Serran said:

But it ends up being how relationships go with deal breaker incompatibilities.

And the place it gets tricky is where you’re not sure it’s a dealbreaker (or it’s not one yet).

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Telecaster68
23 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

The same way his wife can insist on less or no sex; by saying “I can’t continue like this.  Unless we are consistently have sex x often by y timeframe I am not going to be able to stay in this relationship.”

That's not insisting in the same way she can insist on almost no sex. 

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ryn2
2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

That's not insisting in the same way she can insist on almost no sex. 

How so?  Like serran said, one party puts down their mandatory condition(s) and the other can agree, counter, or refuse.

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Telecaster68

Mrs Uhtred says 'I want no sex', and there is no sex between them, regardless of Mr Uhtred's wishes. Doesn't work when Mr Uhtred wants sex.

 

I'm not saying it should be different, but there is a basic power imbalance here, in the asexual's favour.

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ryn2

It’s the same as the kids example, really.  If kids are a real show-stopped for one partner and at the start they are a “sounds good someday” for the other, there comes a point where the kid-wanting partner will say “look, I know you’ve had good reasons to put it off, but I can’t wait anymore.”

 

If the kid-wanting partner lets it be put off forever, or at least until it’s too late, it wasn’t actually a show-stopper.

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ryn2
1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

Mrs Uhtred says 'I want no sex', and there is no sex between them, regardless of Mr Uhtred's wishes. Doesn't work when Mr Uhtred wants sex.

 

I'm not saying it should be different, but there is a basic power imbalance here, in the asexual's favour.

There’s a difference between the case-by-case situation and the aggregate.  Most people would agree that any given time an individual says “no sex,” that be respected (whether it’s Mrs. OR Mr. Uhtred turning the other down).  Both parties still have an equal opportunity to tolerate the long-term situation or to insist that it change, though.

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anisotrophic

Oh, idk - one can also change the equation by expressing more sadness about a lack of sex without actually leaving? or by expressing more frustration about the pressure to have sex? If experiencing negative feedback from a partner is also unpleasant, it shifts the balance of the equation.

 

But does one actually want to make a partner feel guilt, by expressing sadness and frustration? (Maybe a little, but not too much? How can one know how much guilt the other experiences?)

I guess expressing/honoring needs in a relationship is a tricky balancing act.

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Telecaster68
4 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

There’s a difference between the case-by-case situation and the aggregate.  

There isn't. If someone never wants sex, they never have to have it, in aggregate. And their partner doesn't only have to respect their decision sometimes. The non-sexual partner always controls whether sex is had in that relationship. Sure there are consequences, but they're internal to the relationship, not criminal convictions (even if the sexual was inclined to go there).

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GoneForGood
2 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

I guess expressing/honoring needs in a relationship is a tricky balancing act.

With clear, open and honest communication.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, MakeLoveNotWar said:

With clear, open and honest communication

That just clarifies them. It doesn't resolve them - it's necessary but not sufficient.

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Sally
49 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

In effect, it has to be 'leave'. That's the only course of action we have.

 

We've had this conversation many times Sally, and we'll get to the point of me saying it comes down to the asexual saying 'my way or the highway' and you somehow managing to disagree. 

No -- what I'm saying is that if one partner is unhappy and sees no way to stop being unhappy, that partner should leave the relationship.   That's what I've always said.  And apparently you -- as the partner who was long-term unhappy -- have done so.   

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Telecaster68
3 minutes ago, Sally said:

what I'm saying is that if one partner is unhappy and sees no way to stop being unhappy, that partner should leave the relationship

I agree. Thing is, it's relatively easy for the asexual to remove from the relationship the principle thing making them unhappy. It's completely impossible for the sexual.

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ryn2
11 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

Oh, idk - one can also change the equation by expressing more sadness about a lack of sex without actually leaving? or by expressing more frustration about the pressure to have sex? If experiencing negative feedback from a partner is also unpleasant, it shifts the balance of the equation.

 

But does one actually want to make a partner feel guilt, by expressing sadness and frustration? (Maybe a little, but not too much? How can one know how much guilt the other experiences?)

I guess expressing/honoring needs in a relationship is a tricky balancing act.

Very... and it sounds as though uhtred has tried this - at least to the degree he’s comfortable with - without real change.

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Serran
14 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

There isn't. If someone never wants sex, they never have to have it, in aggregate. And their partner doesn't only have to respect their decision sometimes. The non-sexual partner always controls whether sex is had in that relationship. Sure there are consequences, but they're internal to the relationship, not criminal convictions (even if the sexual was inclined to go there).

The non sex wanting partner can control if they have sex together. They cant control if their partner does. The partner also has the option of "I need sex, you cant give it to me, so I will get it elsewhere" if they want the power to have sex. Then its up to the non sex wanting partner to accept that or not.

 

Right now my partner has sexual things off the table - potentially for the rest of her visit... which would mean nothing again until March (unless she didnt feel like it then either, then May). Im not willing to say its a power imbalance though. We are still equals, she just has chosen to use her power to choose over her body. I have that same power, just dont want to use it right now. 

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ryn2
11 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

There isn't. If someone never wants sex, they never have to have it, in aggregate. And their partner doesn't only have to respect their decision sometimes. The non-sexual partner always controls whether sex is had in that relationship. Sure there are consequences, but they're internal to the relationship, not criminal convictions (even if the sexual was inclined to go there).

Right, but we’re talking about *within the context of the relationship*.  Someone can only refuse to ever have sex *and still be in the relationship* as long as the other person puts up with it and stays.  Likewise, someone can only insist on sex x often as long as the other person puts up with it and stays.

 

In either case people can try to renegotiate, but in the end there is no relationship without the agreement of both people to let it continue.

 

 

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ryn2
6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I agree. Thing is, it's relatively easy for the asexual to remove from the relationship the principle thing making them unhappy. It's completely impossible for the sexual.

Not without the sexual’s cooperation.  Otherwise, what they actually remove is the relationship.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, Serran said:

The non sex wanting partner can control if they have sex together. They cant control if their partner does. The partner also has the option of "I need sex, you cant give it to me, so I will get it elsewhere" if they want the power to have sex. Then its up to the non sex wanting partner to accept that or not.

 

Right now my partner has sexual things off the table - potentially for the rest of her visit... which would mean nothing again until March (unless she didnt feel like it then either, then May). Im not willing to say its a power imbalance though. We are still equals, she just has chosen to use her power to choose over her body. I have that same power, just dont want to use it right now. 

That's like saying to saying to someone who's holding a gun to your head: 'I could choose to shoot myself if I wanted, so there's no power imbalance here'.

 

As with so many AVEN discussions, technically you're right - both partners choose whether or not they want sex. Also as with so many AVEN discussions, the actual real world just doesn't work like that. If one person never wants sex, practically speaking, the other gets no say in their own sex life short of leaving the relationship. 

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Sally
6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I agree. Thing is, it's relatively easy for the asexual to remove from the relationship the principle thing making them unhappy. It's completely impossible for the sexual.

I don't understand what you mean.  I was talking about the partners leaving the relationship if one of them is irreparably unhappy, and thus being free from that relationship which wasn't working, and you agreed with that.  (And in fact you have done it.)  

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Serran
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

That's like saying to saying to someone who's holding a gun to your head: 'I could choose to shoot myself if I wanted, so there's no power imbalance here'.

 

As with so many AVEN discussions, technically you're right - both partners choose whether or not they want sex. Also as with so many AVEN discussions, the actual real world just doesn't work like that. If one person never wants sex, practically speaking, the other gets no say in their own sex life short of leaving the relationship. 

They can go outside the relationship for sex and leave it up to their partner to be OK with it or not. 

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Not without the sexual’s cooperation.  Otherwise, what they actually remove is the relationship.

I'm not sure being unwilling to sacrifice your home, family, and the rest of the relationship can fairly be described as 'co-operation'. 

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, Sally said:

I don't understand what you mean. 

The core issue is the presence of sex in a relationship. It makes the sexual happy, and its absence makes the asexual happy.

 

The asexual can remove it from the relationship with the word 'no'. 

 

The sexual has no comparable option.

 

Which is why we get to 'just leave'.

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ryn2

It comes down to the same comparison from the other thread... does someone who has never desired sex understand what it’s like to go without it (and is it the same to everyone)?  Does someone who’s never had sex they really didn’t desire, with someone they really weren’t attracted to, understand what that’s like (and, again, is it the same for everyone)?

 

Everyone has to make the same decision - is the amount of sex this relationship provides and requires worth the rest of the relationship to me?

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Telecaster68
3 minutes ago, Serran said:

They can go outside the relationship for sex and leave it up to their partner to be OK with it or not. 

We're talking about sex within the relationship.

 

But, as ever in these discussions, any permutations are allowed in order to keep asexuals as the victims at all times....

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ryn2
3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm not sure being unwilling to sacrifice your home, family, and the rest of the relationship can fairly be described as 'co-operation'. 

Again, that’s what you weigh.  Same for the ace; at some point, if “no sex” really is a show-stopper, withholding it will end the relationship.

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Telecaster68
Just now, ryn2 said:

It comes down to the same comparison from the other thread... does someone who has never desired sex understand what it’s like to go without it (and is it the same to everyone)?  Does someone who’s never had sex they really didn’t desire, with someone they really weren’t attractednto, understand what that’s like (and, again, is it the same for everyone)?

 

Everyone has to make the same decision - is the amount of sex this relationship provides and requires worth the rest of the relationship to me?

The realities of that choice are hugely swayed in the asexual's favour though. The situation defaults to what they want: no sex. Mostly, asexuals are quite okay with that, from what I've seen, and able to tolerate the unhappiness it apparently brings by basically ignoring it.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

withholding it will end the relationship.

Will it? Not for many on here, and asexuals can pretty much guarantee it'll take a few years for the birds to come home to roost, with a mix of intermittent reinforcement and unfulfilled promises.

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