"Baby, It's Cold Outside": What Do You Think?

[Back to Avalon]

With the recent controversy over the song "Baby, It's Cold Outside," I thought it would be interesting to get perspectives from asexual and sexual people. As you may have heard, some radio stations have given in to pressure to stop playing the song. People object to lines like "What's in this drink?" and "The answer is no" in the era of #MeToo and the prosecution of Bill Cosby. The children of Dean Martin, who sang the song in a movie, and Frank Loesser, who wrote the song, have publicly defended the song as fun, flirty, and harmless. So what do AVEN members think? As for me, a few years ago i felt like I was over the song, but I'm kind of liking it again. Maybe it's because I like the version by Connie Britton and Will Chase on Christmas with Nashville, in which the woman says, "What's in this drink? It's delicious!" and ultimately resists his overtures, deciding to leave at the end of the song. Or maybe I'm just in a good mood.

[Lichley]

Personally I think it’s taken out of context. 

If you see the video it makes a lot more sense that it’s flirting rather than non-con. This is especially the case because it’s a husband and wife who wrote and sung it. They even said it was about sex before marriage - which was looked down upon by society at the time.

 

[iam135]

I'll be honest - I still haven't ever heard this song (beyond like a little clip of the chorus) and I've taken a liking to my blissful ignorance 😁.

[Knight of Cydonia]

To me it's a non-issue. You have to consider the context of the time when the song came out. For one thing, "what's in this drink" was a stock joke at the time, the punchline being that there wasn't actually anything (alcoholic) in the drink.

 

The whole song is about a girl who wants to sleep over, but knows how society will react because good girls at that time weren't supposed to do that. There's tension between her desire to stay, and societal expectations telling her to go. Her lines are about what other people might think about her staying (e.g. "The neighbors might think", "My sister will be suspicious", "My maiden aunts mind is vicious", "There's bound to be talk tomorrow"), and he responds with excuses she could use ("it's bad out there", "no cabs to be had out there", "you'd freeze out there", and of course, "baby it's cold outside"). She states that she's resisting so that later she can claim that she had done what was expected of her ("I ought to say, no, no, no sir, At least I'm gonna say that I tried"). At the end of the song, they sing in harmony because they're on the same page. She's used her sexual agency to say "yes" when society wants her to say "no", and I think there's an empowering message in that too.

 

 

 

[fuzzipueo]

I've always found it annoying personally. That may be because I miss the nuances of what the song is about (as Knight of Cydonia explains).

Here's the parody of the song which is quite funny.

 

[everywhere and nowhere]

I'm not sure if I've ever heard it, but I've read about the controversy, including some statements defending the song.

However... I just don't particularly like those cheeryhappy holiday songs. It's not even about religious Christmas songs vs. completely secular holiday songs, it's rather about atmospheric vs. cheeryhappy. I prefer the former. Maybe I'm just a melancholic person... For example, I can't stand those happy and fast American versions of "Silent Night". I have a CD called "Traditional Christmas Carols" - earlier I used to listen to the same versions from a cassette and I was lucky to find it on CD when the cassette was already in a rather bad shape. It includes four singers (soprano, alto, tenor and bass) - always one lead singer plus, sometimes, background singers. This version of "Silent Night" was sung by Jerzy Połomski, an old-fashioned singer and actor (who is, by the way, widely known to be gay) and it's just this - much more atmospheric compared to American versions. It's slower, with some mysterious-sounding "ah-ah-aaah..." by female background singers.

Two years ago, on Christmas Eve, my mom's husband said that he doesn't particularly like Polish Christmas carols because they are always "sad". In fact, there is something about it. My favorite has a title which translates as "Welcome, golden star" and it includes words such as "joyful", "happy"... and yet it really is, in a way, heartbreakingly sad, it always makes me cry. But I just quite like this kind of sadness, or rather melancholy. I have nothing against joy, but I just don't like "cheeryhappiness". I prefer the Mysterious.

[Guest]

Since the parody has already been posted... here's a nice updated version without the sarcasm... I really like that one.

 

 

 

[OmegaTheMetamorphicDreamer]

Ugh, I've always disliked that song. Not because of anything controversial, but mostly because I find it boring, mundane, and impossible for me to sympathize with. It was even worse when I would hear it so frequently on the radio in past years. Santa Baby is still the worst Christmas song in all of existence though, and I will make an audible hiss whenever I hear it start to come on.

[IceKing]

I've heard the song the first time on the radio in the second game of Mafia. I found it rather annoying and didn't think much of it.
But I definitely didn't receive the song as harmful. Even I got the flirty and playful tone of it and I'm an airhead when it comes to such things.
 

13 minutes ago, Omega the Shadow said:

Santa Baby is still the worst Christmas song in all of existence though

I just heard some weird cover of it on the radio (they didn't say by whom) with a very soft (somewhat childlike), suggestive sounding voice of a female. Made me cringe inside.

[Alejandrogynous]

42 minutes ago, Knight of Cydonia said:

She's used her sexual agency to say "yes" when society wants her to say "no", and I think there's an empowering message in that too.

I agree, but I think it's interesting to see the impact that this sort of societal 'cheat' has had on our society today. Back then, women had to say no even when they meant yes, so now men hear yes even when the woman is really saying no. (I'm generalizing, obviously.)

 

 

I have no issue with the song, for a lot of the reasons Cydonia already said. I get that some people today might find it skeezy if they haven't considered some of the lines in the context of when it was written, but also with all the problems and injustices in the world right now, people could spend their energy on more important things than banning an oldies holiday song, lol.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Lichley said:

Personally I think it’s taken out of context. 

If you see the video it makes a lot more sense that it’s flirting rather than non-con. This is especially the case because it’s a husband and wife who wrote and sung it. They even said it was about sex before marriage - which was looked down upon by society at the time.

Interesting take - for me, the video really drives the creepiness home. I find it cringeworthy.

[starweb]

I've never liked it but then I have a bias against all so-called 'Christmas love songs'. 

[divided_sky]

Horrible song, but I like it because it gets the SJW types all worked up

[iff]

ITV's not a Christmas song, it is just a song about the weather 😠there is nothing christmassy in the song, it could be February or early march song (which tend in some places to be colder)

 

Sure, what's the big deal with stations not playing. Most radio stations don't play a lot of the songs I like so radio stations aren't playing this song either. It's their choice and listeners can make their own choices too.

 

Maybe stations could add some more songs to their do not play list 

[daveb]

I like the song (or at least some of the versions I've heard (and some I have on my seasonal playlist)). I get where the criticism is coming from and can even see the "creep" factor if you only listen to the words in light of current events, but I prefer to take it as it was meant back in the day, non-creepy.

[abandoned-account]

I prefer listening to some Trans Siberian Orchestra for my Christmas music.

[Diamond Ace of Hearts]

It frustrates me that this keeps coming back every year because it's such a dumb argument but one that I believe will intensify. I can absolutely see how some would find the song creepy or potentially offensive, certainly problematic, but I also read a piece last year or the year before positing that in context (i.e. thinking about the time when it was written) it's less about coercion and more about providing an excuse for the woman to stay over when society at the time would have frowned upon her doing so (the article admitted that even in this context there are issues).

 

You can read all of the lines in the song through either lens and which lens you choose will determine how each line looks; the most innocent will look horrific through the coercion lens and the most problematic can be given the benefit of the doubt by the context lens. I certainly don't believe that the song was written to celebrate coercive relationships. However, I also strongly believe that authorial intent is not the be-all and end-all and in 2018, this song has a creepy-sounding side to it which we can't just ignore. I personally feel we should leave space for individual judgement, so if someone wants to listen to it then that's OK and if they don't ever want to hear it then that's OK too. Public broadcasts are trickier but I suppose that if something is played on the radio or over a PA system then an amount of that room for personal judgement on the listener's part is lost so I probably wouldn't play it if I were a DJ but then I've never liked the song or seen what it has to do with Christmas and probably wouldn't have played it anyway.

 

The main problem is that so many people in society don't understand consent/coercion/rape and while I don't believe that the song muddies the waters any more than many modern songs (looking at you, Blurred Lines et al), there's a kind of a feedback loop between pieces of media like this, those who call them out and those who defend them, which serves only to further entrench people and probably stops them from understanding why something is being called out, or in the worst case, to side with the piece of media over those who call it out and thereby place themselves in an implicit alliance with real-world parallels with the scenarios portrayed. Or, to put it another way: someone who loves Baby It's Cold Outside but hears people saying it's a bit rapey can't really deny that the song could be seen as implying spiked drinks and refusing to take no for an answer. That person can easily end up defending spiked drinks and refusing to take no for an answer as a proxy for defending the song, which is the exact opposite outcome that we want when the song is called out.

 

This is not to say that calling the song out is wrong but getting people to see what is potentially problematic about the song and - more crucially - why it is problematic, is not a goal that is accomplished by simply repeating ad nauseum that the song is problematic or trying to stop people enjoying it altogether.

[Guest]

I'm not really a huge Christmas song fan, to be honest. They're okay, and I don't mind hearing them a bit, but do they really need to be on constant rotation once December 1st rolls around? 😑 

 

I feel "meh" about this song. I've never been a fan of it. The controversy seems a bit much to me. I think that the context of the song needs to be looked at. 

 

Speaking of controversies, there's also the one about the old Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer movie... 

[CajunAce]

I think it's harmless, but it didn't age well. My mom said that the times when the song was written was more 'innocent' as in the darker parts of humanity were often swept under the rug.

[Gloomy]

Meh. I'm not a fan of the song, but when people say it's offensive or "problematic" I'm just like ".....It's a song".

[uhtred]

Never really liked it, but I think the controversy over it is a distraction from and dilutes the very real problems of harassment and assault.  The song can be taken in a negative light, but I don't think it has to be, so it can easily look like it is trivializing a real problem. 

[Atheno]

Hm.   Doesn't seem very Christmas-y.  I'm an atheist but the song irks me a bit.  I mean, I can hum it and all, but I don't really have a problem with radio stations banning it either, it's not one of my favorites.

In summary, meh.

[Epitaph]

Never listened to it. Don't much care. It's usual ho hum human activity and media sensationalism.

 

Besides. I can turn Santa Clause is cumming to town into a joke pretty easily.

 

Don't get me started on "He sees you when you're sleeping, he knows when you're awake."

 

I mean, it all comes down to interpretation. People need to stop finding reasons to be offended.

[Guest Jetsun Milarepa]

The past is a different country - I'm with @E

[Guest]

7 hours ago, E said:

Santa Clause is cumming to town

Is that where snow comes from?! 😍

[Epitaph]

11 hours ago, Ficto. said:

Is that where snow comes from?! 😍

Spoiler

I lost some of my coffee by imagining santa claus using his junk as a snowblower to cover the town.

 

[Sally]

I thought it was creepy when I first heard it years ago.  By then I knew I didn't want to hear about sex (although I didn't know about asexuality) so the song just made me picture what I didn't want to see.  It still creeps me out.  

[Chimeric]

I agree with @Knight of Cydonia and @Diamond Ace of Hearts. It's not a harmful song, it just comes from a time when the context was different. People just like an excuse to get offended about stuff - what really bothers me is that they call in to a radio and throw a tantrum and instead of telling people to calm down, the radios acquiesce. Sigh.

 

I don't care for the song one way or another, but it bothers me to no end when people act like children and then get their way. In fact, I was at a painting class the other night and this topic came up, and someone there was talking about how she can't even believe the song is allowed to exist in the first place; the lady running the radio nearly changed the song, 'til I brought up the context it was written in and pointed out how much it demonstrates the power women have in today's day and age, to say "yes" and "no" with equal impact.

 

... It was a paint night. I just wanted to paint, there was no need for that conversation to happen.

 

Also - your poll has no option for "I don't have a romantic orientation." =]

[AceyMacey]

The song always made me a little uncomfy but as I got older and actually listened to the lyrics, I'm definitely not a fan

[Back to Avalon]

On 12/16/2018 at 7:14 PM, Chimeric said:

Also - your poll has no option for "I don't have a romantic orientation." =]

Can you explain how that differs from aromantic?

 

Also, I included "Other" to hopefully cover anything I didn't think of.