Can't people have their own opinion anymore?

[Evil]

10 hours ago, EggplantWitch said:

And anyway, just because you have an opinion doesn't mean anyone has to listen to it*, which is something I think all the people crying "everyone is such a butthurt snowflake these days!" don't realise.

Oh, we realize it, is just a shame people don't figure out that it goes both ways.

[Chimeric]

12 hours ago, EggplantWitch said:

Sure, you miss the good old days when you were allowed to go around calling people trannies and fags or whatever. Go cry about it to someone who cares.

This is a leap.

 

Following your own logic, here, you seem to be assuming that people who roll their eyes at "snowflakes" and "PC culture" are Bad People - bigots, homophobes, transphobes, etc - and you're treating them differently because of it.

 

Wanting the agency to vocie an opinion (any opinion) without someone else throwing a tantrum about it hardly makes someone a homophobe.

 

[EggplantWitch]

3 hours ago, Chimeric said:

Following your own logic, here, you seem to be assuming that people who roll their eyes at "snowflakes" and "PC culture" are Bad People - bigots, homophobes, transphobes, etc - and you're treating them differently because of it.

Of course not everyone who sneers at "PC Culture" is a bigot (even I think it can occasionally go too far, and I think it's a positive thing) - but there's a not insignificant overlap between the two. And yes, I will treat people differently if I think their opinion is toxic, but it's for just that: their opinion. Toxic opinions are things that hurt real people and, crucially, are something the opinion-holder has control over - someone's sexuality, place of birth, skin colour, etc, does not hurt anyone and is not something they can change, which is the difference between me sneering at someone for being a transphobe and that transphobe sneering at trans people for existing.

[Chimeric]

7 hours ago, EggplantWitch said:

And yes, I will treat people differently if I think their opinion is toxic, but it's for just that: their opinion.

Honestly I think it's a slippery slope between "I disagree with you" and "you're toxic."

 

I hold a lot of opinions that are really unpopular with mainstream LGB/T groups at the moment and get pegged as "toxic" on social media quite often. I'm not, I'm trying to to make sure things are resolved in a way that's fair for everyone. Maybe I'm just particularly sensitive to the whole thing, I dunno.

 

Unrelated to me, but related to OP, I knew a guy in high school and college who suffered from a legitimate phobia of gay men (in the literal sense of the word). He was a pacifist and believed strongly in human rights, but if he was in a room where he thought someone might be gay, he would literally break into a cold sweat and start shaking. He was terrified of it. Logically he knew it was completely irrational, because how can you know if someone is gay or not, etc, etc, and he didn't know what it stemmed from, but he had no control over his response. It was bizarre, lol. Last I knew he was seeking treatment for it, but as you can imagine he would get a lot of really weird looks when he tried to explain that he was homophobic.

 

Anyway I recognize his case is a weird one and I'm not using it to justify homophobia or hate or anything, I just thought it was an interesting scenario to share and this seems like a conversation to share it.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

Honestly I think it's a slippery slope between "I disagree with you" and "you're toxic."

 

I have seen people peacefully put forth good counter arguments and get met with violence. 

 

To me the refusal to open a dialogue in itself is toxic. 

 

Dialogue entails disagreement, and and finding common ground.

 

But to okay hostility towards someone with an opinion that differs than ones own is rather ironic.

 

Especially if denouncing the violence and aggression their opinions could possibly conjure.

 

I see it like people who hate Trump due to his rhetoric that fans the flames of hate. But then feeling justified on hoping he dies or gets murdered.

 

Some logic will never make sense to me.

 

Same reason I won't get angry or accuse a person of racism if they admit they don't like black people.

 

I will hear what they have to say, and put myself in their shoes. I will then attempt to put them in mine.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Chimeric said:

Honestly I think it's a slippery slope between "I disagree with you" and "you're toxic."

 

I hold a lot of opinions that are really unpopular with mainstream LGB/T groups at the moment and get pegged as "toxic" on social media quite often. I'm not, I'm trying to to make sure things are resolved in a way that's fair for everyone. Maybe I'm just particularly sensitive to the whole thing, I dunno.

 

Unrelated to me, but related to OP, I knew a guy in high school and college who suffered from a legitimate phobia of gay men (in the literal sense of the word). He was a pacifist and believed strongly in human rights, but if he was in a room where he thought someone might be gay, he would literally break into a cold sweat and start shaking. He was terrified of it. Logically he knew it was completely irrational, because how can you know if someone is gay or not, etc, etc, and he didn't know what it stemmed from, but he had no control over his response. It was bizarre, lol. Last I knew he was seeking treatment for it, but as you can imagine he would get a lot of really weird looks when he tried to explain that he was homophobic.

 

Anyway I recognize his case is a weird one and I'm not using it to justify homophobia or hate or anything, I just thought it was an interesting scenario to share and this seems like a conversation to share it.

It was interesting. I mean I feel people have no idea how to put a line between someone who is toxic with their dislike and someone who isn't. Someone who is homophobic and someone who is homophobic. I mean it is described as a phobia as well. I cannot control I am claustrophobic so how can we not say the same for other phobias. I mean why do we need to force people who are uncomfortable to be comfortable. More issues arise then solutions 

 

Last year I was the only student on my history class and the teacher made me uncomfortable, specifically when he would sit next to me. I would put distance and all as much as possible and I was told I need to grow up and he is a chilled guy and they would not mind it but I do not do well with male teachers and such close proximity. They tried to force me to get over with it which almost caused a panic attack. Thankfully he left and I was left to teach myself. 

[Guest]

On 12/13/2018 at 4:07 AM, EggplantWitch said:

You treat people you don't like differently than you treat people you do like. It's pretty basic stuff.

That is understandable but that doesn't mean people don't treat others they dislike without respect. 

 

On 12/13/2018 at 4:07 AM, EggplantWitch said:

And anyway, just because you have an opinion doesn't mean anyone has to listen to it. 

It is not just about listening to it is about respecting it. Just because they dislike something or are uncomfortable I don't think we have the right to attack the person and force our opinions on them because we disagree. 

 

13 hours ago, EggplantWitch said:

 And yes, I will treat people differently if I think their opinion is toxic, but it's for just that: their opinion. Toxic opinions are things that hurt real people and, crucially, are something the opinion-holder has control over - someone's sexuality, place of birth, skin colour, etc, does not hurt anyone and is not something they can change, which is the difference between me sneering at someone for being a transphobe and that transphobe sneering at trans people for existing.

That is your opinion and mine is someone's opinion is theirs and it is only toxic when they use it to treat others unfairly because of it. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

I have seen people peacefully put forth good counter arguments and get met with violence. 

 

To me the refusal to open a dialogue in itself is toxic. 

 

Dialogue entails disagreement, and and finding common ground.

 

But to okay hostility towards someone with an opinion that differs than ones own is rather ironic.

 

Especially if denouncing the violence and aggression their opinions could possibly conjure.

 

I see it like people who hate Trump due to his rhetoric that fans the flames of hate. But then feeling justified on hoping he dies or gets murdered.

 

Some logic will never make sense to me.

 

Same reason I won't get angry or accuse a person of racism if they admit they don't like black people.

 

I will hear what they have to say, and put myself in their shoes. I will then attempt to put them in mine.

It is amazing how one claims to be so open minded but the moment it is something negative or against their belief then they attack the person for being so close minded .... 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, AwkwardSquid said:

That is your opinion and mine is someone's opinion is theirs and it is only toxic when they use it to treat others unfairly because of it. 

Yep. To me an opinion itself isn't toxic. It's when you treat other people differently as a result of their opinions (and your own) that is toxic.

 

Example: I'm a fan of Blaire White. She's a trans YouTuber who voted for Trump and has pretty strong opinions when it comes to gender being based in biology. Yes, obviously some people strongly disagree with her opinions and that's fine.

 

BUT I saw some very upset people on AVEN a while ago talking about how upsetting it is that transpeople don't get a voice in public and how they're disrespected etc. I said I agree that transpeople should get a voice and deserve respect (like anyone  does) which is why I find it so sad when I see other transpeople slamming someone like Blaire White and trying to silence her. They (rightly) demand respect for transpeople... but only for people who have the same opinion as them apparently? Whereas as far as I'm concerned everyone deserves the same respect as everyone else regardless of what opinions they hold, as long as their opinions don't cause them to treat others as less than human.

 

Then everyone in the thread turned around and said stuff like 'oh that bitch can burn in hell we weren't talking about people like her, she needs to shut the hell up and stop spewing her toxic garbage all over the place' 😧 they were so fucking mad that I'd brought her up!! They literally PROVED the point I was making: Someone only deserves respect as long as you agree with their political opinion, otherwise they're no more than garbage and apparently deserve to be treated as such. They also apparently only deserve a voice if they choose to use words with said voice that you're in agreement with, otherwise cut their damn tongue out and be damned with them!! 😕

 

To me, it's not Blaire White's controversial opinions that are toxic, it's the attitude that she's suddenly less than human and deserves to be treated as such if her opinions aren't the same as yours.. that's what's fucking toxic!

 

And the same goes for any person obviously, not just Blaire. She's just an interesting case being trans herself.

 

"I demand respect for transpeople, and all transpeople deserve a voice in society. Unless a transperson has a different political opinion than me. They need to be silenced and can burn in hell with the rest of the scum if they're not in agreement with me!!"

 

Y_Y

[Sally]

1 hour ago, AwkwardSquid said:

It is amazing how one claims to be so open minded but the moment it is something negative or against their belief then they attack the person for being so close minded .... 

If someone tells me that Black people and gay people and all women are subhuman, I'm going to (verbally) attack them.  Being open-minded doens't mean you must shut up or "seek common ground" when you listen to nasty personal insults of whole groups of human beings.  

[Guest]

I think there is a huge difference in " I dont like gays " and " I personally dont agree with homosexuality, but it is their life" stances. One says you dislike the person for being gay, which, yeah I will consider you prejudiced. The other is disagreeing on a personal level with something but respecting it has nothing to do with you. 

 

My family is largely highly religious. But, they dont dislike or reject or treat people poorly for being gay, they just personally dont agree with it cause to their religion it is a sin. Like me sharing a bed with someone pre marriage is a sin to them. Which, their beliefs are whatever, as long as they dont use them to be rude to people. And saying you dislike a whole group of people just because of something like thay is..  eh. You dont tend to be nice to people you dont like. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sally said:

If someone tells me that Black people and gay people and all women are subhuman, I'm going to (verbally) attack them.  Being open-minded doens't mean you must shut up or "seek common ground" when you listen to nasty personal insults of whole groups of human beings.  

I think it's more when you point out the higher crime rate in poor black communities and get instantly slammed as a racist fuckwad by some triggered (usually middle-class, white) SJW. Or when you try to discuss the idea that aspects of gender just might have biological origins you get slammed as a bigoted transphobe who wants transpeople to die. This sounds like extreme reactions to very normal opinions (if you ask me anyway) but I've been at the receiving end of this kind of nonsense so many times now. You try to have a discussion and (some) people act like you're out to murder minorities, call your opinions 'toxic', and use that as an excuse to not only ignore you but also to insult and ridicule you. They feel justified in their rage due to their perception of your opinions as 'toxic' when actually, it's their behaviour that's toxic and repellent.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Sally said:

If someone tells me that Black people and gay people and all women are subhuman, I'm going to (verbally) attack them.  Being open-minded doens't mean you must shut up or "seek common ground" when you listen to nasty personal insults of whole groups of human beings.  

Attacking them for their beliefs, reinforces them.

 

I hear them out. I have had racists open up to me, as they are met with zero resistance. 

 

Maybe it's my curiosity. I am always amazed as to how people develop hate. I want to hear them out, and give them the stage. 

 

I find my non violent response opens them up, then gives me a chance for dialogue with them. I otherwise waste it by forcing my views onto them, and trying to shame them.

 

Violent rebuttals, only fan flames. I'm trying to put them out. Hate black people? Well, we are not all the same.

 

Punching a Nazi in the face lowers you to their level. 

 

I don't accept racism. I have just happened to experience it all my life. Changes your views a little when it's part of your existence. 

 

To the point I know it will always exist.

 

If I can change one person's mind about their views while respecting them, I have literally thrown their own hateful bullshit right into their face, essentially disarming them.

 

I think trying to forcefully silence people is ineffective. It doesn't resolve the issues or racism. 

 

Putting laws in place is important of course. I want someone to be afraid of burning down my house. 

 

However, people meet resistance in one avenue, and they will go elsewhere where their views are respected. Giving them strength in numbers. 

 

Were a throw away society that feels out of sight, automatically means problem gone. Same reason why many cities are crippled with homelessness yet visually you wouldn't be able to tell. 

 

People are always shocked at those who are angry at the world. Can you blame them? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Serran said:

I think there is a huge difference in " I dont like gays " and " I personally dont agree with homosexuality, but it is their life" stances. One says you dislike the person for being gay, which, yeah I will consider you prejudiced. The other is disagreeing on a personal level with something but respecting it has nothing to do with you. 

Yeah sorry that is what I am aiming for. I am gonna be honest and say I really don't know how to word stuff well because it makes sense to me but not to others and comes off wrong... 

[Cobie]

I voted q1 yes and, imho as a logical consequence, q2 no. If by q1 yes, people are allowed their own opinion, then it follows that they also are allowed their own opinion in choosing to not be open minded.

Then I see from the statistics that 30 people said q1 yes, but only 8 people said q2 no/none of my business. So how did the remaining 22 work that out logically?

 

 

[Cobie]

Re. q2:

 

- I am always suspicious of people using the word “should”. Who are you to tell me what I “should” do/think? Imho It’s sheer bigotry.

 

- How open minded does one have to be exactly? As the saying goes, don’t be so open minded that your brain falls out.

[Guest]

35 minutes ago, Thea2 said:

I am always suspicious of people using the word “should”. Who are you to tell me what I “should” do/think? Imho It’s sheer bigotry.

Should in that context is asking a question, not stating a fact. It's pretty much the same as asking 'do you think there would be less fighting if people were more open minded?' ..that's pretty much what 'should' means in that context. It's not saying 'you SHOULD be more open minded' (telling you you have to). Does that make sense? English is honestly a very silly language because the same words mean completely different things depending on what context they're used in. Blergh.

 

38 minutes ago, Thea2 said:

How open minded does one have to be exactly? As the saying goes, don’t be so open minded that your brain falls out.

Just open-minded enough to not claim someone has toxic opinions just because they disagree with one's own opinions, if that makes sense? Some people are so close-minded they'll scream bigotry just because your opinion is different than theirs and all that does is create hostility and anger which doesn't help anyone!!

 

53 minutes ago, Thea2 said:

So how did the remaining 22 work that out logically?

I am one of the people who answered Yes to the second question. My reasoning: If everyone was more open minded there would be a lot less hostility, hatred, and arguments. I'm not talking about being open to anything that will physically actually harm another person (I am sure no one is thinking about being literally open that!!), but just about being able to be open to different ideas. I see so often these days people screaming bigotry when someone presents a rational and interesting argument, just because those ideas differ from what other people think. I mean, I can't even mention the impossible collapse WTC7 without about 20 people having a huge meltdown and calling me names (seriously, even very intelligent people turn into toddlers as soon as you bring something like that up with them)... But if they'd just calm down so we could all talk rationally, we might all learn something interesting!! 

 

Anyway, what my sleepy brain is getting at is that if everyone could be more open to actually listening to other people's opinions then 1) we might all learn something new and 2) at the very least people would be able to engage in discussions without those discussions turning into insults and ridicule!

 

We saw this exact issue play out earlier in this thread where someone pretty much said 'if someone's opinion is toxic then they don't deserve my respect' but often what is deemed a 'toxic' opinion isn't actually something that would hurt anyone! Someone saying: 'I disagree with gay sex though I'm not going to stop anyone doing what they want in the privacy of their own home' isn't actually hurting anyone so as far as I'm concerned it's not toxic. But I can guarantee plenty of people will react with anger and hatred instead of engaging in a civilized discussion (which is sad because one is much more likely to change someone's ideas by engaging with them on a mature and calm level!!)

 

Hopefully that answers your questions!! I just thought I better take the time to respond before sleep as I am one of the people who answered 'yes, everyone should be open  minded' to the second question of the poll!!

[Cobie]

@Ficto. ^^ Ha, ha, you are very conscientious, I hope I didn’t rob you of precious sleep. 😴 Thank you very much for elucidating. 😊

[Barbio]

I think it's human nature to be fearful, distrustful, and/or just plain dislike people who are different than us. It may have been "okay" (for lack of a better word) back when humans lived in small tribes where everybody was culturally alike, but in a modern society such as ours, it's counterproductive, on account of we now live among a massive hodgepodge of different cultures & ethnicities from around the world, and we suddenly have to set aside all of our differences in order to work together to keep this society functioning. It's not easy to defy our natural tendencies to dislike certain groups of people, but EggplantWitch pretty much hit the nail on the head in describing what happens when we don't- we may just think that we personally dislike those people without actually having any negative impact on their way of living, but the reality is that disliking a group of people is often the first step towards causing serious harm to the members of that group. Unless we start being honest with ourselves and try to work past our contempt for a group of people, we're not much better than the people who actively try to harm them.

[Sally]

20 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Attacking them for their beliefs, reinforces them.

 

I hear them out. I have had racists open up to me, as they are met with zero resistance. 

 

Maybe it's my curiosity. I am always amazed as to how people develop hate. I want to hear them out, and give them the stage. 

 

I find my non violent response opens them up, then gives me a chance for dialogue with them. I otherwise waste it by forcing my views onto them, and trying to shame them.

 

Violent rebuttals, only fan flames. I'm trying to put them out. Hate black people? Well, we are not all the same.

 

Punching a Nazi in the face lowers you to their level. 

 

I don't accept racism. I have just happened to experience it all my life. Changes your views a little when it's part of your existence. 

 

To the point I know it will always exist.

 

If I can change one person's mind about their views while respecting them, I have literally thrown their own hateful bullshit right into their face, essentially disarming them.

 

I think trying to forcefully silence people is ineffective. It doesn't resolve the issues or racism. 

 

Putting laws in place is important of course. I want someone to be afraid of burning down my house. 

 

However, people meet resistance in one avenue, and they will go elsewhere where their views are respected. Giving them strength in numbers. 

 

Were a throw away society that feels out of sight, automatically means problem gone. Same reason why many cities are crippled with homelessness yet visually you wouldn't be able to tell. 

 

People are always shocked at those who are angry at the world. Can you blame them? 

What you do is what you do, not what everyone wants to do.  And there's a difference between trying to silence people and  challenging  their assumptions.  I've lived long enough to hear enough haters out; I don't need to continue to hear them, since their answers are all too disheartingly similar.   And as a Jew with a name that doesn't sound Jewish, I certainly don't allow clueless anti-Semites blather without a challenge.  

[Guest Jetsun Milarepa]

I find IRL that although there's this veneer of open mindedness in society, the old repressive stuff is just lurking behind it...loads of folk have just figured out how to get around it to look good.

[Knight of Cydonia]

If I hear an opinion I disagree with, I hear them out and engage in dialogue - even if I think that opinion is terrible and harmful. I think it's important to know why someone believes what they do, and responding with vitriol does nothing to help change a mind for the better. If conversation doesn't work, at least I tried!

 

As Daryl Davis says, "Establish dialogue. When two enemies are talking, they're not fighting." Daryl Davis is a black man who engaged in dialogue and even befriended dozens of KKK members, with the intention of improving race relations, and indirectly lead to over 200 people leaving the Klan. One thing he found, for instance, was that a lot of them had misconceptions about black people that stemmed from brainwashing when they were young. But he was willing to have peaceful conversations with them to challenge those misconceptions and hopefully get through to them.

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Knight of Cydonia said:

One thing he found, for instance, was that a lot of them had misconceptions about black people that stemmed from brainwashing when they were young. But he was willing to have peaceful conversations with them to challenge those misconceptions and hopefully get through to them.

I remember seeing a Westboro Baptist church member leave for that very same reason. 

 

She was brainwashed as a kid and the hate she got for her views reinforced them. She just regurgitated what she was taught. None of these kids understand what they are doing.

 

She then met a man who was curious, so got to know her. Never slammed her for her views. Worked to understand them.

 

She was disarmed, started questioning what she was taught. 

 

Left the church, and has spent her life since trying to right all the years of wrong and pain that she produced.

 

In months, he did what people using force were unable to do in years. Never would have done.

[Guest]

On 12/15/2018 at 2:25 AM, Sally said:

What you do is what you do, not what everyone wants to do.

That is fine. However, fighting fire with fire will not resolve any conflict. You can keep doing you, as nobody will stop you. 

 

On 12/15/2018 at 2:25 AM, Sally said:

I certainly don't allow clueless anti-Semites blather without a challenge.  

In one ear and out the other if you force your views onto them. 

 

They will walk away laughing at you. 

 

Make the question their views without firing a shot, and you stand a chance to change their minds.

 

Like I said. Do you. However, you can't denounce someone with hateful views, if you are fueling your own to the collective fire. 

[Alawyn-Aebt]

I think people should have their own opinions, but you have to know why and must be able to defend your opinion fairly reasonably. To me the worst opinion is one which you will stick to no matter if you cannot reasonably defend it.

 

Opinions are like water, they flow and change, you should always question your own and other people's opinions continually. Debate your opinions with others, if you cannot reasonable defend your opinions you must change them.

[Guest]

suppress the opinions of those who want to suppress opinions

[Knight of Cydonia]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

I remember seeing a Westboro Baptist church member leave for that very same reason. 

 

She was brainwashed as a kid and the hate she got for her views reinforced them. She just regurgitated what she was taught. None of these kids understand what they are doing.

 

She then met a man who was curious, so got to know her. Never slammed her for her views. Worked to understand them.

 

She was disarmed, started questioning what she was taught. 

 

Left the church, and has spent her life since trying to right all the years of wrong and pain that she produced.

 

In months, he did what people using force were unable to do in years. Never would have done.

I think I know who you're talking about - Megan Phelps-Roper? She did a fantastic TED talk! She gave advice on civil discourse and I've really tried to take it to heart: don't assume bad intent, ask questions, stay calm, and make the argument.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

I remember seeing a Westboro Baptist church member leave for that very same reason. 

 

She was brainwashed as a kid and the hate she got for her views reinforced them. She just regurgitated what she was taught. None of these kids understand what they are doing.

 

She then met a man who was curious, so got to know her. Never slammed her for her views. Worked to understand them.

 

She was disarmed, started questioning what she was taught. 

 

Left the church, and has spent her life since trying to right all the years of wrong and pain that she produced.

 

In months, he did what people using force were unable to do in years. Never would have done.

It is amazing how this technique is used in so much media from books to movies to anime but yet nobody actually uses it. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Aebt said:

I think people should have their own opinions, but you have to know why and must be able to defend your opinion fairly reasonably. To me the worst opinion is one which you will stick to no matter if you cannot reasonably defend it.

 

Opinions are like water, they flow and change, you should always question your own and other people's opinions continually. Debate your opinions with others, if you cannot reasonable defend your opinions you must change them.

I agree. I enjoy debating opinions but I do not enjoy getting attacked and being called names before I can even explain myself. For example when I mentioned that I do not like religious themes then I was called an 'Atheist bitch' most awkward day of my life. I am not even atheist. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, sh*t said:

suppress the opinions of those who want to suppress opinions

That is a living, breathing quote that should be online