I don't fully understand asexuality.

[Guest]

Then when you've had this exact same convo like 487 times (because it comes up on AVEN all the time) this is the kind of hamster you become:

 

 

^That's my brain hamster  

[Kaira Aitken]

6 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

This is what happened to your brain hamster:

 

 

Now it's back on its wheel  

That made me laugh!

[letusdeleteouraccounts]

I don’t think anyone is understanding the “preference & action =/= desire” point that I’m trying to get at

[Sally]

It may be that we disagree with it, or we don't think necessary.

[Philip027]

Quote

I don’t think anyone is understanding the “preference & action =/= desire” point that I’m trying to get at

Probably because it's a Distinction Without a Difference.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Star Lion said:

I don’t think anyone is understanding the “preference & action =/= desire” point that I’m trying to get at

We absolutely understand. Action certainly does not equal underlying desire (been there myself). But if someone is actively seeking other people to have sex with for their own pleasure and sexual release then they are very, very clearly motivated by a desire to seek sexual release with others, which is a sexual behaviour and not an asexual one.

 

There are thousands of asexuals on AVEN who have had sex (and are having it right now) for reasons other than desire to seek it out (like to make their partner happy, to try to 'fit in', to look straight so as to avoid negative judgement, to have a baby, self-punishment, whatever) but the mere action of having sex does not stop someone from being asexual. The internal drive to seek partnered sexual release though, that comes from a place of active desire. It's not just an action, it's an action motivated by an internal desire to seek sexual release with other people. If the internal desire to seek that out was not there, the person would just masturbate. It's quite simple really!!  

[Tame One]

 

16 hours ago, Serran said:

How is sexual attraction defined in that book?

Unfortunately it's not defined as such and only context gives a sense of her definition--but it is definitely about a specific person, not a specific sexual desire. It lists other things that can push a desire for sex with another person (to be clear, these are all things that can, but, like sexual attraction, not all factors will push everyone interested in sex) .  E.g. being desired (regardless of one's interest in that other person), hormonal changes, physical setting, as a way to de-stress.

 

11 hours ago, MichaelTannock said:

Not too long ago I had a discussion with several people on the forum about this very topic.
In the end, the consensus seemed to be that if you desired partnered sex, then you're experiencing sexual attraction towards the person you choose.
In my case, I've never had or desired sex, so I can't answer your question.

Frankly that's a really bad definition of sexual attraction. It assumes a couple things

1. That you can only desire partnered sex if you have another person in mind. That's pretty easy to falsify.

2. That any type of preference is sexual attraction. However, Aven wiki's definition of sexual attraction involves an "emotional response". So a rational choice to have sex with a specific person because you desire sex but don't experience an emotional response of a sexual character very much doesn't fit that definition.

 

5 hours ago, Kaira Aitken said:

OH MY GOSH! Thank you so much for clarifying that. Because the YouTube video gave me the impression that asexuals would fuck anything that breathes. My brain was like "that sounds wrong. That makes no sense."

That is really weird. I'm curious about that video, do you have the link?

 

5 hours ago, Kaira Aitken said:

Oh sexual asexuals aren't attracted to any particular person, but they can just want sex. They're drawn to the sex not to the person ... (the YouTube video seemed to imply)

This I would agree with. Except that it's confusing terminology. I'd say sex-favorable asexual. You'll also hear talk around here of sex-repulsed allosexuals which are the opposite, people who don't want sex but still have a part of themselves that find specific people sexually attractive. (I can't say I fully understand that, but I believe them).

 

And as I said above, sex favorable asexuals are still picky (or as likely to be picky as allosexuals).

 

 

[Tame One]

4 hours ago, Star Lion said:

I don’t think anyone is understanding the “preference & action =/= desire” point that I’m trying to get at

Honestly, a lot of people around here don't get the incredible complexity of sexuality. Which is understandable. But it would be nice if they accepted it from people who experience it even if it's hard to understand.

[Ms. Carolynne]

11 hours ago, Star Lion said:

Asexuals who want sex can decide to experience it with a person for any number of reasons and preference. Sexual attraction is a feeling of desire towards a person to have sexual contact with them and the feeling is very distinguishable. A person may want sex and decide to have it with a certain person because they’re aesthetically attractive but still be asexual because they never had any feeling of desire towards them. It’s a general want for sex and decided to experience it with this particular person because of other preferences

 

11 hours ago, Star Lion said:

@Ficto.

I think the difference is that these asexuals want sex in general, it’s just not a feeling of desire aimed at any particular person. The only reason they would choose a specific person is because of preferences that would distinguish them from the crowd such as aesthetic attraction, personality, and personal connections. It’s like aromantics who really want a relationship and will go out and search for one

 

Here's what's confusing about this. That is exactly what sexuals look for, if I'm to believe what the sexuals on here say as well as my own observations. Sexual attraction for most doesn't appear to just be it's own standalone thing; aesthetic attraction, personality, and romantic feelings can all tie into one's sexuality. That would also be why these are often conflated with eachother, even though they are their own distinct things. 

 

So these purported asexuals who seek out sex with criteria other than sexual attraction are not apparently distinct from everyday sexuals. Throwing in gender preferences, an asexual male who is like this but only with women, is indistinguishable from a heterosexual male.

 

Might I ask what sexual attraction even looks like in and of itself? I would say it leads right back to desiring partnered sex, which is what we're trying to puzzle out. If sexual attraction isn't wanting sex with another person for whatever reason, then what is it?

 

This is kind of the issue with the sexual attraction definition. There's a secondary definition of desiring sex with another person and it's used because just saying sexual attraction is too nebulous (especially here where many of us have never experienced it).

 

3 hours ago, Star Lion said:

I don’t think anyone is understanding the “preference & action =/= desire” point that I’m trying to get at

Ever consider why that may be? It doesn't make sense (or rather it isn't making sense to us).

 

If one is willing to seek and choose a sexual partner then they would appear to have some sort of desire.

 

I understand they could be seeking out sex without desire, but why? If they don't desire sex, then why would they want it?

[letusdeleteouraccounts]

12 minutes ago, Tame One said:

This I would agree with. Except that it's confusing terminology. I'd say sex-favorable asexual. You'll also hear talk around here of sex-repulsed allosexuals which are the opposite, people who don't want sex but still have a part of themselves that find specific people sexually attractive. (I can't say I fully understand that, but I believe them).

 

And as I said above, sex favorable asexuals are still picky (or as likely to be picky as allosexuals).

 

 

Thank you, this is mostly what I’m saying

 

10 minutes ago, Ms. Carolynne said:

I understand they could be seeking out sex without desire, but why? If they don't desire sex, then why would they want it?

It’s not about desiring sex itself, sexual attraction is a feeling of desire towards a specific person. These people may desire sex, but they don’t desire it from any specific person. Let’s compare it like this: Jack has an urge to play a game of tennis. He gets this urge because he loves tennis. He loves the thrill, the action, and pleasure he gets out of this activity. Tennis isn’t for everybody but Jack loves it. He’s never had an urge to play tennis with any specific person, he just seriously wants to play a game of tennis. You can’t play a game of tennis without another person, so what are your options? He loves tennis so much that he will pick up a random stranger to play a game of tennis with him. Or he might just pick up his friend to play a game of tennis since playing with his friend would be more fun than with a stranger. Now if you replace my tennis analogies with sex then there you go

[Tame One]

7 minutes ago, Ms. Carolynne said:

So these purported asexuals who seek out sex with criteria other than sexual attraction are not apparently distinct from everyday sexuals.

So we sex favorable asexuals are distinct from allosexuals. But we're also distinct from sex neutral and sex repulsed asexuals. That does make us hard to fit in, hard to be understood by either group.

 

13 minutes ago, Ms. Carolynne said:

Might I ask what sexual attraction even looks like in and of itself? I would say it leads right back to desiring partnered sex, which is what we're trying to puzzle out. If sexual attraction isn't wanting sex with another person for whatever reason, then what is it?

Sexual attraction is wanting sex with a specific other person. And not just wanting something, but an emotional response. What do I mean by that? Let me try a metaphor. If I'm hungry I'll have a variety of things I can eat. Some I wouldn't enjoy, others I would. So let's say I choose to have pizza. On another night I might have pizza because I've been craving pizza specifically. If I've been craving pizza, I might even decide to have pizza even if I'm not hungry. A person can desire food--like a person can desire sex. And a person can desire a specific food--as a person can desire sex with a specific person. And that latter (if it's an emotional response) is sexual attraction. It's not a perfect metaphor (among other reasons, because no one needs sex), but hopefully you can see how those are two different reasons for doing the same thing. 

 

21 minutes ago, Ms. Carolynne said:

It doesn't make sense (or rather it isn't making sense to us).

Thank you for accepting that these are not always the same thing. It's disheartening that some people have made up there mind and have decided that our experiences aren't real.

[Guest]

38 minutes ago, Tame One said:

Thank you for accepting that these are not always the same thing. It's disheartening that some people have made up there mind and have decided that our experiences aren't real.

So, genuine question:  Are you saying you are an asexual who will literally have sex with any human being alive? Though I will say only 18+ year olds for the purpose of legality.

 

In that case, that would mean you are asexual because you will have sex with any 18+ year old human alive, yet I am sexual because I choose to have sex with certain people over others? I don't walk around just wanting to fuck everyone on sight, like @Star Lion specified earlier (incorrectly attributing this behavior solely to 'asexuals) I only have an ability to desire sex with someone whose personality/mind I am drawn to.

 

So, to clarify, I am sexual because I only choose to have sex with some people and not others (I require a kind of emotional bond to be able to want sex at all all and even then, the sex is just an enjoyable aspect of that bond, nothing more), and an asexual is someone who will fuck anything that breaths without emotion as long as I am assuming that thing is 1) human and 2) 18+?

 

If I am incorrect in my analysis, could you please clarify how a sex-favourable asexual chooses who they have sex with? You'll need to give me an example that is different from Star Lions examples above, because the examples he gave were in no way different from how any sexual person chooses their sexual partners, he literally described a normal sexual person word for word.

 

Or do you truly mean you'll fuck anything indiscriminately?

 

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Star Lion said:

Now if you replace my tennis analogies with sex then there you go

Same question as I posed to @Tame One. Are you saying an asexual is someone who will fuck anything that breathes as long as it's 1) over 18, 2) human, and 3) wants sex? (I have to make those specifications for legal reasons, obviously)

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Tame One said:

Honestly, a lot of people around here don't get the incredible complexity of sexuality. Which is understandable. But it would be nice if they accepted it from people who experience it even if it's hard to understand.

Also, just to clarify, most people actively debating here understand the 'incredible complexity of sexuality', and many of us have been doing this on AVEN for a long time now (literally years, in my case). I myself am actually sexual, so looking at this from the perspective of someone who does actively desire sexual intimacy under certain specific circumstances (and who was once in a horrendously sexually mismatched relationship with the exact type of person you are claiming is asexual - yet he was the most sexual person I have ever met), I truly am intrigued to learn how you're justifying the arguments you're trying to make here. Because so far you've very clearly been talking about pansexual people with literally 0 preferences/standards, not asexuals. I am hoping your answer to my above question will maybe make your stance a little clearer to us troglodytes who clearly have no understanding of the most basic elements of human sexuality  

 

Disclaimer: Please note, I don't care how people personally identify. It's the overall definitions I am debating here, NOT the way individuals choose to identify.

[Sally]

If you desire sex for sex's sake,  you are sexual.

 

If you don't desire sex with other people, you are asexual.  

 

And we DO understand the complexity of sexuality AMONG INDIVIDUALS.  However, there are definitions, as Ficto says, and those definitions do not  need to include 173 different made-up words describing every possible permutation.    If you desire sex only in even-numbered months and only with 30-year-old Australians, you are sexual.  If you don't desire sex in any month with anyone, you are asexal.  

[letusdeleteouraccounts]

@Ficto.

I’m not saying sexuals or asexuals want to have sex with everybody. I’m saying that sex-favorable asexuals like the pleasure they get from sex. Some of them will go out and look for somebody that is willing to have sex with them so they can experience that pleasure again. A pansexual might enjoy or dislike sex, but eventually they will run into a person that triggers their involuntary sexual desire causing an emotional response throughout their body (and being pansexual, the person triggering the emotional response of sexual desire can be of any gender). The (sex-favorable) asexual doesn’t have that involuntary desire, they just enjoy sex and some are willing to search for a person willing to help them enjoy it. The sex-favorable pansexual and sex-favorable asexual both have preferences and standards. Now say you have a heterosexual who also has preferences and standards. Difference for them is that person triggering their involuntary feeling of sexual desire will only be a person of the same gender

 

(Sex-favorable) Asexual: No person triggers sexual desire but they enjoy sex

(Sex-favorable) Pansexual: Person of any gender/sex/identity can potentially trigger sexual desire and they also enjoy sex

 

The (sex-favorable) asexual might enjoy sex enough to go find someone (whether they have preferences/standards or not) willing to give them the opportunity for this enjoyment

[Philip027]

Quote

I’m not saying sexuals or asexuals want to have sex with everybody. I’m saying that sex-favorable asexuals like the pleasure they get from sex. Some of them will go out and look for somebody that is willing to have sex with them so they can experience that pleasure again.

That's literally the (potential) behavior of a sexual person.

[everywhere and nowhere]

@Star Lion - I don't get it. First you are saying, in another topic, that one instance of sexual attraction forever makes a person non-asexual. Now you are speculating tirelessly about supposed asexuals who want sex...

To make it clear, I prefer the desire-based definition of asexuality. Also because it's much simpler - this topic is another example of how difficult can the concept of "sexual attraction" be to grasp (particularly for people who probably don't experience it) and how much hair-splitting its definition can involve. Asexuality is a social phenomenon too and "not wanting sex" does have influence over a person's social life - "not feeling attracted to anyone" will only have such influence if it's expressed through action.

[letusdeleteouraccounts]

@Nowhere Girl

There’s a difference between wanting sex and for a person to trigger a feeling of sexual desire

[mausgrau]

3 minutes ago, Star Lion said:

@Nowhere Girl

There’s a difference between wanting sex and for a person to trigger a feeling of sexual desire

There might well be, but that would be a difference between one kind of sexual attraction and another kind of sexual attraction!

 

What you're talking about has no truck with asexuality.

[NickyTannock]

8 hours ago, Tame One said:

Frankly that's a really bad definition of sexual attraction. It assumes a couple things

1. That you can only desire partnered sex if you have another person in mind. That's pretty easy to falsify.

2. That any type of preference is sexual attraction. However, Aven wiki's definition of sexual attraction involves an "emotional response". So a rational choice to have sex with a specific person because you desire sex but don't experience an emotional response of a sexual character very much doesn't fit that definition.

Here's I think the most relevant post in the aforementioned debate,

You might find it useful too @Star Lion

[Philip027]

Quote

There’s a difference between wanting sex and for a person to trigger a feeling of sexual desire

There basically isn't.  Either way, you want sex for the purposes of sexual gratification.  This is what defines sexual people.

 

Again, it's a Distinction without a Difference.

[Alejandrogynous]

3 hours ago, Star Lion said:

 

There’s a difference between wanting sex and for a person to trigger a feeling of sexual desire

Yes, and both are extremely common and commonly understood reasons for sexual people to have sex. 

 

It just blows my mind that somehow "asexual" has come to mean "loves sex" to some people. Just... linguistically, look at it. Asexual. How.  

 

I also really want to know what defining asexuality this way is supposed to communicate to people anyway. "Just to be clear, it's the sex I want, not you. You understand? Good, wouldn't want you to feel attractive or good about yourself at all - I don't like you. Just the sex." Why?? 

[Anthracite_Impreza]

Every time we have this argument the Corgi's coming out.

[everywhere and nowhere]

1 hour ago, Alejandrogynous said:

I also really want to know what defining asexuality this way is supposed to communicate to people anyway. "Just to be clear, it's the sex I want, not you. You understand? Good, wouldn't want you to feel attractive or good about yourself at all - I don't like you. Just the sex." Why?? 

Yup. That would just be mean.

I wouldn't like to speak for allosexuals... but I feel that a version perhaps easier to accept for them would be "I love you, but I still cannot desire sex".

[Alejandrogynous]

17 minutes ago, Nowhere Girl said:

Yup. That would just be mean.

I wouldn't like to speak for allosexuals... but I feel that a version perhaps easier to accept for them would be "I love you, but I still cannot desire sex".

Exactly - and if you're asexual (AKA: don't desire sex), that's an important conversation to have. 

 

But if you do desire sex, what's the point of hammering home just how much you're not actually into your partner, just the fucking? It just seems cruel and unnecessary. 

[everywhere and nowhere]

Which is another reason to define asexuality in terms of "not experiencing sexual desire". There are enough of us anyway. Those who can't compromise and those who do compromise, but still don't actively desire sex. And with all these reservations, I still think that there are probably more asexuals than just 1%. There are a lot of people who just don't like sex, but have been taught how great sex supposedly is and spend years trying to "learn to enjoy it" instead of admitting to themselves that they don't really need it...

[Charna]

9 hours ago, Whatsis said:

There might well be, but that would be a difference between one kind of sexual attraction and another kind of sexual attraction!

 

What you're talking about has no truck with asexuality.

Or the difference between wanting to get your rocks off, because you got horny, and wanting to get your rocks off, because someone got you horny. Whatever the reason, if you seek out other people for your own sexual gratification, then you're sexual.

[R_1]

5 hours ago, Alejandrogynous said:

Exactly - and if you're asexual (AKA: don't desire sex), that's an important conversation to have. 

 

But if you do desire sex, what's the point of hammering home just how much you're not actually into your partner, just  lllokll fucking? It just seems cruel and unnecessary. 

 

[Alejandrogynous]

@R_1 Not sure what point you're trying to make here. Are you laughing because I said 'fucking'? Either way, I'd appreciate it if you didn't edit my quotes without clearly marking what changes were yours. It's rude.