Tunes

Just some questions about gender

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Tunes

So, I’m a cis female here, and I’m just trying to get a better grasp on some if the terms related to gender identity. 

 

So, I understand male and female, and by extension, transmale and transfemale. And I understand that genderfluid means you switch between genders (not necessarily between male and female, but between some unspecified number of any other gender identities). 

 

But what is the difference between agender and nonbinary? Don’t they both mean you are neither male nor female? 

 

What are demigirl and demiguy? Without changing between male/female and non-gender (to avoid using existing terms that I clearly don’t understand - unless nongender is also a term, in which case, how does that differ from agender/nonbinary?), which would just be genderfluid, how can you just be kind of male or kind of female? 

 

And isn’t bigender or polygender just genderfluid? 

 

I’m so confused! x.x

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St. Nyaaconix the II

Agender is a form of the non-binary umbrella. :)

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St. Nyaaconix the II

Oh oops, you asked more questions. :o 

 

demi-<gender> is basically identifying oneself not fully as that gender. Not super feminine or masculine. It's stable. Not fluctuating. 

 

polygender is that your gender is multiple on the spectrum at the same time. Whereas genderfluid it shifts on the spectrum.

 

bigender is similar but when thought of as gender being a binary thing 2 distinct forms of gender.

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Light02

Wow, your post reminds me of myself a couple of years ago, haha. I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.

 

Non-binary - an umbrella term that encompasses literally all gender identities that fall outside of simply man or woman in some way. 

 

Agender - not having a gender. An identity that falls within the non-binary umbrella.

 

Demi[insert gendered term here] partially identifying as that gender. For example, say someone is a demigirl, this means they partially id as a girl but not just that. It's somewhat of a vague descriptor, it could mean they feel a slight connection to womanhood but not to the point where they are comfortable identifying solely as female, or it could mean they id as a woman and another gender.

 

Genderfluid - this term is generally used to mean you flow between all genders. Most genderfluid people describe the gender changes as slow and mostly unnoticeable, they happen over time.

 

Bigender - you switch between two genders. These could be anything - male and female, male and agender, male and demiguy, etc. Most bigender people say the switches they experience are usually sudden, like flipping on a light switch.

 

Polygender - your gender flows between multiple genders but not necessarily all. It's very similar to genderfluid, yes. It's kind of like the modern definitions of bisexual and pansexual - bisexual means you are attracted to two or more genders, pansexual means you are attracted to all genders. As a result, there's a lot of overlap and the differences in the definitions are minimal.

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St. Nyaaconix the II
6 minutes ago, Light02 said:

Bigender - you switch between two genders. These could be anything - male and female, male and agender, male and demiguy, etc. Most bigender people say the switches they experience are usually sudden, like flipping on a light switch.

Eeeps. I was wrong from out of the top of my head... 😂 

 

Thanks for this light02! :)

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Anthracite_Impreza

So, you have your traditional two genders - male and female. At the risk of being cliche let's say male is navy blue and female is vivid pink (I didn't make this shit up!).

Demi-male would be a sky blue, demi-female would be a pastel-pink.

Non-binary would be a box containing various different colours - green agender, yellow neutrois, orange 2 spirit etc.

Fluid genders would be like having a disco ball with two or more colours.

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Coddiwomple

I embedded some useful links so you can do more reading about these terms if you wish, and I defined them myself to the best of my ability:

 

Nonbinary or non-binary is an umbrella term that encompasses all identities that don't fall strictly within the gender binary. So anyone who's not fully male or fully female would be nonbinary. Nonbinary can also be used as a stand-alone gender identity for anyone who feels that their gender isn't strictly male or female, but doesn't wish to define it with a more specific label (e.g. demigender, bigender, agender).

 

Agender is a term used to refer to someone with no gender whatsoever. Agender people fall under the nonbinary umbrella.

 

Demigender/Demigirl/Demiguy are terms used to refer to someone who feels a partial connection to a gender (e.g. a demigirl feels somewhat female, but not fully). It is a purposely vague term that literally means "half gender/girl/guy". Some demigender people are genderfluid (their gender changes/shifts over time), and some aren't. Demigender people fall under the nonbinary umbrella.

 

Genderfluid (hey, that's me!) is a term used to refer to someone who feels that their gender changes over time. You are right in that genderfluid people can flow between any number of genders, that aren't necessarily only male or female. Genderfluid can be used as an umbrella term for all people who feel that their gender changes (e.g. genderfluid bigender people, genderfluid demigender people, etc.), or used as a stand-alone gender identity. Genderfluid people fall under the nonbinary umbrella.

 

Bigender is a term used to refer to someone who experiences exactly two genders, which can be any two genders, not necessarily male or female, with or without switching between the two. It's a common misconception that all bigender people are genderfluid, which is in fact not the case; ambigender people (ambigender people experience two genders simultaneously without fluidity) exist as well and are just as bigender as genderfluid bigender people. Genderfluid bigender people are people who experience "switches" between two genders. Bigender people fall under the nonbinary umbrella.

 

Polygender is a term used to refer to someone who experiences many genders (more than 2). Similar to bigender people, polygender people can be genderfluid, where they shift between many genders, or they can experience many genders simultaneously.

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Tunes
18 hours ago, St. Nyaaconix the II said:

demi-<gender> is basically identifying oneself not fully as that gender. Not super feminine or masculine. It's stable. Not fluctuating

So it’s like identifying with a gender but not it’s stereotypes? Like what was referred to as a tomboy when I was growing up? 

 

18 hours ago, St. Nyaaconix the II said:

polygender is that your gender is multiple on the spectrum at the same time.

How can you be two at the same time? I don’t understand at all, not even enough to clarify my question. ^.^u I just can’t wrap my head around what that means. 

 

18 hours ago, Light02 said:

Wow, your post reminds me of myself a couple of years ago, haha. I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.

I appreciate that! And it’s nice to know I’m not the only one confused and my question doesn’t come across as insulting. I was really worried about that...

 

18 hours ago, Light02 said:

Non-binary - an umbrella term that encompasses literally all gender identities that fall outside of simply man or woman in some way. 

So nonbinary isn’t a gender, but a collection of possible genders? 

 

18 hours ago, Light02 said:

this means they partially id as a girl but not just that.

Ok, this is still confusing me. Like, I identify as female, but I view myself as a somewhat “tomboyish” female - not that I don’t fit the female stereotype, just that I’m not a very girly female. I don’t identify as male (or masculine in any way) and the fact that I identify as female rules out agender. But I feel like not being particularly girly is a normal thing for females and identify purely as female. So what is it that sets me apart from someone who identifies as a demigirl? Just my definition of what is “normal” for a female? I feel like I’m missing something. 

 

18 hours ago, Light02 said:

your gender flows between multiple genders but not necessarily all. It's very similar to genderfluid, yes.

So genderfluid, then, has to include all genders? And what if someone switches gender suddenly, like bigender, but it can be between 3 genders? 

 

17 hours ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Demi-male would be a sky blue, demi-female would be a pastel-pink.

Your color explanation is fun, but I have no idea how to relate it to gender... ^.^u

 

17 hours ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

neutrois

What is that? Is it similar to agander? 

 

14 hours ago, Coddiwomple said:

ambigender people (ambigender people experience two genders simultaneously without fluidity)

Same question as above, how can two genders be experienced simultaneously? Also, would ambigender be the term used for someone who experiences more than 2 genders simultaneously? 

 

14 hours ago, Coddiwomple said:

Genderfluid bigender people are people who experience "switches" between two genders.

So does bigender represent the switching aspect (while just plain genderfluid implies slower changes), or can bigender also happen slowly over time as well? Also, can someone who experiences the change slowly over time also experience the change as a switch sometimes, or is this generally an experience that varies from person to person (but each individual will only experience it one way or the other)? 

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Light02
1 hour ago, Tunes said:

So nonbinary isn’t a gender, but a collection of possible genders? 

Yup, that's a good way to put it. It literally means not binary - not solely a man or a woman.

 

1 hour ago, Tunes said:

Ok, this is still confusing me. Like, I identify as female, but I view myself as a somewhat “tomboyish” female - not that I don’t fit the female stereotype, just that I’m not a very girly female. I don’t identify as male (or masculine in any way) and the fact that I identify as female rules out agender. But I feel like not being particularly girly is a normal thing for females and identify purely as female. So what is it that sets me apart from someone who identifies as a demigirl? Just my definition of what is “normal” for a female? I feel like I’m missing something. 

I think what you're missing is that gender identity is not about gender stereotypes or gender roles and whether you do or don't fit them. It's about an innate feeling of what you know your gender to be. So, someone identifying as a demigirl is someone who feels like a girl just not "fully". There really is no better way to describe it, you can't know what it's like unless you yourself have felt it. Same thing when it comes to being two genders simultaneously - there's no way to translate what that's like into words because it's a feeling, unless you've experienced it yourself you can't comprehend it 100%.

 

1 hour ago, Tunes said:

So genderfluid, then, has to include all genders? And what if someone switches gender suddenly, like bigender, but it can be between 3 genders? 

That would be called trigender. But that one's a bit less common, I think.

 

1 hour ago, Tunes said:

Also, can someone who experiences the change slowly over time also experience the change as a switch sometimes, or is this generally an experience that varies from person to person (but each individual will only experience it one way or the other)? 

Exactly, it varies from person to person.

 

You have to understand that a lot of these terms and definitions aren't necessarily set in stone, a lot of people use one or more of these labels and define them in a way that is personal to them. It's kind of like sexuality labels. For example, some pansexual people define "pansexual" as being attracted to all genders, others say it means being attracted to people regardless of gender. Gender and sexuality labels are not an exact science, a lot of it comes down to interacting with people who hold these identities and seeing how the terms are used generally. The best thing you can do, if you are confused about someone's label, is to ask (politely, of course, in appropriate circumstances) what it means specifically to them. Because in the exact same way that two people can both be gay men and have differences in, say, the type of men they are attracted to, so there's no one way to experience a single sexuality, it's the same with gender.

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Coddiwomple
12 hours ago, Tunes said:

So it’s like identifying with a gender but not it’s stereotypes? Like what was referred to as a tomboy when I was growing up? 

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12 hours ago, Tunes said:

Ok, this is still confusing me. Like, I identify as female, but I view myself as a somewhat “tomboyish” female - not that I don’t fit the female stereotype, just that I’m not a very girly female. I don’t identify as male (or masculine in any way) and the fact that I identify as female rules out agender. But I feel like not being particularly girly is a normal thing for females and identify purely as female. So what is it that sets me apart from someone who identifies as a demigirl? Just my definition of what is “normal” for a female? I feel like I’m missing something. 

 

No. Gender expression does not equal gender identity. Demigender people don't just not identify with their gender's stereotypes--they truly feel that they are not fully that gender. A demigirl isn't a masculine girl, a demigirl is a person who is only partially female. The fact that you don't understand what it's like to be partially one gender and partially not speaks to the fact that you are not demigender. Only a demigender person can truly understand what it's like to be demigender.

 

12 hours ago, Tunes said:

How can you be two at the same time? I don’t understand at all, not even enough to clarify my question. ^.^u I just can’t wrap my head around what that means. 

 

It can be hard to wrap your head around if you've never experienced it. As a bigender person (at least I think I'm bigender), it really just feels like I'm both male and female at the same time. I don't know how else to describe it. There's a part of me that's male, and there's a part of me that's female. And they are able to co-exist in me at the same time. That's all it is. Two genders, existing in me simultaneously.

 

I wouldn't sweat understanding it too much, though. We're not asking for you to understand us, just to respect us. It is pretty impossible to fully comprehend feelings that you've never experienced.

 

12 hours ago, Tunes said:

So nonbinary isn’t a gender, but a collection of possible genders?

 

Usually, yes, that is how it's used. But like I said in my earlier post, some people simply call their gender non-binary. So nonbinary can refer to a gender or it can be used as an umbrella term, it really just depends on who you ask. All of these gender words have somewhat vague definitions that are interpreted differently by different people.

 

12 hours ago, Tunes said:

So genderfluid, then, has to include all genders? And what if someone switches gender suddenly, like bigender, but it can be between 3 genders? 

 

No, genderfluid just means your gender changes. It's irrelevant how many genders you flow between. If your gender changes at all, you're genderfluid by definition. Switching between three genders would be called trigender or polygender.

 

12 hours ago, Tunes said:

What is [neutrois]? Is it similar to agander? 

1

I admit I don't fully understand neutrois myself, because it has several common definitions that are all pretty nebulous. I've often heard it described as a "neutral gender" or a gender completely removed from the gender binary (kind of like aporagender/maverique). Here's a link that goes into more detail about the definitions of neutrois.

 

11 hours ago, Tunes said:

would ambigender be the term used for someone who experiences more than 2 genders simultaneously? 

Nope. I believe the prefix ambi- means "both", implying two, so ambigender can only be used by people who experience exactly 2 genders.

 

11 hours ago, Tunes said:

So does bigender represent the switching aspect (while just plain genderfluid implies slower changes), or can bigender also happen slowly over time as well? Also, can someone who experiences the change slowly over time also experience the change as a switch sometimes, or is this generally an experience that varies from person to person (but each individual will only experience it one way or the other)? 

You're overthinking the definitions a bit. Bigender means you experience exactly two genders. Genderfluid means your gender changes over time. That's it. Things like the speed at which your gender changes can vary from person to person. Sure, there are some common experiences that many people who identify with a certain term share, but the definitions are vague on purpose, to encompass many experiences.

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Coddiwomple

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Tunes
11 hours ago, Light02 said:

there's no way to translate what that's like into words because it's a feeling, unless you've experienced it yourself you can't comprehend it 100%.

I always hate getting this answer though. It makes me feel so limited... 

 

1 hour ago, Coddiwomple said:

Gender expression does not equal gender identity. 

Yeah, I know and understand that in concept; I just can’t figure out how to break down ‘female’ any further without going into expression. ^.^u I’m trying, but I just can’t wrap my head around what this means in a practical sense. 

 

1 hour ago, Coddiwomple said:

I wouldn't sweat understanding it too much, though. We're not asking for you to understand us, just to respect us.

I know, and it’s not that I can’t do that or even that it’s something difficult for me. But if I can understand, I so strongly prefer to. So what’s difficult is limiting myself to *just* accepting/respecting and settling for such an incomplete view of the world and people. I so much enjoy being able to put myself in the mindset of people who are different from me and having people that I can’t even do this with on a basic level makes me feel so limited in my understanding of the world at large. 😕 It’s very much a personal frustration, not something that reflects on my opinion of the group itself in any way. You are all equally as valid regardless of whether I understand it or not. I’m just disappointed in myself when I don’t. 

 

1 hour ago, Coddiwomple said:

So nonbinary can refer to a gender or it can be used as an umbrella term, it really just depends on who you ask.

Yes; I’m interpreting this like grey-ace. It’s technically an umbrella term that other subcategories fall under, but some grace people feel that none of the subcategories fit them, or they are still figuring themselves out, or whatever, and so they just stick with the term grey-ace because that’s really all they need. It’s still just an umbrella term, but if you don’t need further clarification, then why specify further? 

 

1 hour ago, Coddiwomple said:

Here's a link that goes into more detail about the definitions of neutrois.

So, just to throw it out there in case someone has something they want to clarify further: it sounds like it’s the same thing as agender, but sometimes this term is preferred because the a- in agender implies a lack of, but neutrois could feel that they *have* a gender, it’s just not male or female. Does that seem right? 

 

1 hour ago, Coddiwomple said:

You're overthinking the definitions a bit.

It’s more that I’m trying to grasp the nuances. For example, if bigender and ambigender both have the same technical definition - experiencing two genders - that’s fine, as long as there is some implied difference (that may or may not be regularly acknowledged). But if they are used the same way and mean the same thing and don’t even imply some difference, then what is the point of having both words? For example, agender and neutrois (by the definition I spelled out above) technically mean the same thing and are used pretty much interchangeably. But the connotations differ, as one linguistically implies a lack of gender and the other implies a neutral gender. In practice, these often overlap or people view the difference as subtle enough that it doesn’t much matter which term they use. But due to the linguistic connotations, there is still a subtle difference between the terms, giving them a reason to both exist. So to clarify, I suppose I’m automatically assuming that lines will be blurry and definitions will overlap, but I want to have a grasp on the essence of each word and learn the practical applications as I read more later and see it in action, if that makes sense...

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kaysir
7 hours ago, Tunes said:

So, just to throw it out there in case someone has something they want to clarify further: it sounds like it’s the same thing as agender, but sometimes this term is preferred because the a- in agender implies a lack of, but neutrois could feel that they *have* a gender, it’s just not male or female. Does that seem right

They are not always close in meaning, and it can be largely incorrect to call an agender person neutrois (they may not feel neutrally at all!) or vice versa, but they can definitely describe the same or similar scenarios.

Edited by kaysir
Elaboration and typos lol
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kaysir
11 hours ago, Tunes said:

For example, agender and neutrois (by the definition I spelled out above) technically mean the same thing and are used pretty much interchangeably.

Ok, I kept reading and now I have to say nah. While they CAN be used interchangeably, they are not synonymous by default. You said you're a tomboy. So, what you're neutral? Oh, so you just don't have a gender? No. Just because you aren't particularly feminine doesn't mean you aren't female, and someone who is neither female nor male doesn't just automatically not have a gender. Neutrality doesn't denote absence.

 

I also thought of this metaphor and now I'm super amused and have to mention it lol.

 

Say female is a grapefruit and male is an orange. A lime is neither a grapefruit nor an orange ie neither female nor male. Neither is a lemon, a celementine, a mandarine, or any other citrus, but they are all their own fruit. They can be highly similar or widely different, but they're not the same just because they're not a grapefruit or an orange.

Edited by kaysir
Metaphors mutha sucka
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Coddiwomple
22 hours ago, Tunes said:

I always hate getting this answer though. It makes me feel so limited... 

 
22 hours ago, Tunes said:

I know, and it’s not that I can’t do that or even that it’s something difficult for me. But if I can understand, I so strongly prefer to. So what’s difficult is limiting myself to *just* accepting/respecting and settling for such an incomplete view of the world and people. I so much enjoy being able to put myself in the mindset of people who are different from me and having people that I can’t even do this with on a basic level makes me feel so limited in my understanding of the world at large. 😕 It’s very much a personal frustration, not something that reflects on my opinion of the group itself in any way. You are all equally as valid regardless of whether I understand it or not. I’m just disappointed in myself when I don’t. 

 

I feel ya. You're already on the right path to understanding the experiences of nonbinary people by asking questions like the ones you're asking, though. Most people don't even bother with that. (Sorry, I did not mean for that to sound as condescending as it did.)

 

22 hours ago, Tunes said:

I just can’t figure out how to break down ‘female’ any further without going into expression. ^.^u I’m trying, but I just can’t wrap my head around what this means in a practical sense. 

Yeah, that's because gender identity is really only in your head, which is what makes gender so tricky. It's pretty hard to break down gender beyond "that's what you feel like".

 

22 hours ago, Tunes said:

Yes; I’m interpreting this like grey-ace. It’s technically an umbrella term that other subcategories fall under, but some grace people feel that none of the subcategories fit them, or they are still figuring themselves out, or whatever, and so they just stick with the term grey-ace because that’s really all they need. It’s still just an umbrella term, but if you don’t need further clarification, then why specify further

 

Yup, exactly.

 

22 hours ago, Tunes said:

So, just to throw it out there in case someone has something they want to clarify further: it sounds like it’s the same thing as agender, but sometimes this term is preferred because the a- in agender implies a lack of, but neutrois could feel that they *have* a gender, it’s just not male or female. Does that seem right? 

 

I have most often seen neutrois used to mean a neutral gender/a gender completely removed from the binary, but there are probably some people out there who are genderless and identify as neutrois. Again, I don't really understand neutrois myself, because the definitions seem to basically just be agender, maverique, and possibly androgyne, so I don't see the need for a vague catch-all label like neutrois.

 

22 hours ago, Tunes said:

It’s more that I’m trying to grasp the nuances. For example, if bigender and ambigender both have the same technical definition - experiencing two genders - that’s fine, as long as there is some implied difference (that may or may not be regularly acknowledged). But if they are used the same way and mean the same thing and don’t even imply some difference, then what is the point of having both words?

1

I think the implied difference between bigender and ambigender is that ambigender people always experience two genders simultaneously, whereas bigender people don't necessarily experience their two genders simultaneously. The difference is definitely subtle though.

Edited by Coddiwomple
typo
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Tunes

@kaysir Yeah, I picked up on the difference that agender (a- meaning lack of, as in asexual or aromantic) meant no gender and neutrois (probably linguistically connected to the word neutral, though I’m not familiar enough to say how) meant something closer to a “neutral” gender, in terms of the binary view that just keeps clinging to society, so it’s like a third gender option. But the link that was given made it sound like they overlap and are used interchangeably, so I assumed they must be closely linked in some practical sense. Either way, their linguistic roots imply very different things. I just don’t know how much they overlap in everyday use because I have never seen anyone use neutrois and have only seen agender talked about, not used as an identity. So I assumed the site was right and had a reason for listing them as synonyms and  giving both definitions for one term. *shrug*

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kaysir
3 minutes ago, Tunes said:

I just don’t know how much they overlap in everyday use because I have never seen anyone use neutrois

It's interesting, it was pretty commonly in use around here maybe 2 years ago? I think some people still use it but may have switched to other terms. Maverique and just nb as a gender and not an umbrella come to mind.

 

Anyway, your reasoning makes sense because some people do define them exactly the same way, but a lottt of people don't.

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Tunes
6 minutes ago, Coddiwomple said:

I feel ya. You're already on the right path to understanding the experiences of nonbinary people by asking questions like the ones you're asking, though. Most people don't even bother with that. (Sorry, I did not mean for that to sound as condescending as it did.)

I’m glad someone does and it doesn’t just make me super weird. XD I’m frequently told that my desire to understand is unjustified and abnormal and people tend to assume that my desire to understand hinders my ability to accept people as they are. But it’s not like that at all! I accept way before I understand. I still want to understand, though. I mean, why should I just stop at accepting? I get why even curious people might not ask, though. I’m scared I’m going to insult someone somehow. But my curiosity makes it worth the risk, I guess, ‘cause I always ask eventually. XD Fear definitely limits me for a while, though. I just eventually get sick of being unable to wrap my head around it. So I seek assistance. :) And that didn’t seem condescending - not to me, anyway. 

 

17 minutes ago, Coddiwomple said:

It's pretty hard to break down gender beyond "that's what you feel like".

I guess what I’m stuck on is the “not completely” part. I mean, as opposed to what? What else is there? If you feel only, say, 50% female, then what is the other 50%? No matter what you answer at that point, that makes you ambigender (or bigender perhaps). Even if you answer “nothing”, then you are female and agender, which still makes you ambigender/bigender. And if you aren’t just “part female and part something else”, then how is that different than being 100% female? I just don’t get it. 😕 What does it mean? Maybe eventually, with enough reading about it and imagination, I’ll figure out what feeling two genders simultaneously is like. But I can’t even get a practical definition of demigender, much less try to imagine it. 

 

26 minutes ago, Coddiwomple said:

maverique

What? 

 

26 minutes ago, Coddiwomple said:

androgyne

But this isn’t a gender identity, but rather a form of gender expression, right? 

 

28 minutes ago, Coddiwomple said:

ambigender always experience two genders simultaneously, whereas bigender people don't necessarily experience their two genders simultaneously.

So someone ambigender is automatically bigender (as they experience two genders), but a bigender could switch between genders instead (where ambigenders experience their genders simultaneously), thus not all bigenders are ambigender? That makes sense. 

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Coddiwomple
22 minutes ago, Tunes said:

I’m glad someone does and it doesn’t just make me super weird. XD I’m frequently told that my desire to understand is unjustified and abnormal and people tend to assume that my desire to understand hinders my ability to accept people as they are. But it’s not like that at all! I accept way before I understand. I still want to understand, though. I mean, why should I just stop at accepting? I get why even curious people might not ask, though. I’m scared I’m going to insult someone somehow. But my curiosity makes it worth the risk, I guess, ‘cause I always ask eventually. XD Fear definitely limits me for a while, though. I just eventually get sick of being unable to wrap my head around it. So I seek assistance. :) And that didn’t seem condescending - not to me, anyway. 

 

That's crazy! I think trying to understand is awesome, and I definitely have the urge to understand things as well.

 

22 minutes ago, Tunes said:

I guess what I’m stuck on is the “not completely” part. I mean, as opposed to what? What else is there? If you feel only, say, 50% female, then what is the other 50%? No matter what you answer at that point, that makes you ambigender (or bigender perhaps). Even if you answer “nothing”, then you are female and agender, which still makes you ambigender/bigender.

 

Well, most people don't actually consider agender a gender. Even if it is effectively a gender for the purposes of wording ("their gender is agender"), it is not experienced as one. Maybe this'll clear it up: When I feel demigender, I feel a connection to a gender, but it's kind of weak/vague, I still feel partially agender, and calling myself the gender I have a connection to feels like oversimplifying, so demigender makes the most sense at the time. That's just my experience though.

 

22 minutes ago, Tunes said:

And if you aren’t just “part female and part something else”, then how is that different than being 100% female? I just don’t get it. 😕 What does it mean?

I wouldn't understand why a person who feels exclusively, completely female wouldn't identify as female.

 

22 minutes ago, Tunes said:

Maybe eventually, with enough reading about it and imagination, I’ll figure out what feeling two genders simultaneously is like. But I can’t even get a practical definition of demigender, much less try to imagine it. 

The thing is, definitions of genders aren't really created to be clear to people who don't experience them, they're created to reflect the experiences of people who are those genders, so those definitions are often very nebulous. Which is why I, a nonbinary person myself, don't understand a great many gender definitions that are out there. I just do my best to get it, hear from different sources, and that's really all I can do.

 

22 minutes ago, Tunes said:

What? 

 

This is an example of one of the genders that I totally don't get at all. Here's the definition: "Maverique (pronounced mav-reek) is a specific nonbinary gender identity 'characterized by autonomy and inner conviction regarding a sense of self that is entirely independent of male/masculinity, female/femininity or anything which derives from the two while still being neither without gender nor of a neutral gender.'" So, basically, a gender that's not male nor female, nor in between them, nor anything related to masculinity and feminity at all. Yeah, I don't understand it.

 

22 minutes ago, Tunes said:

But this isn’t a gender identity, but rather a form of gender expression, right? 

1

Androgyne has multiple definitions. It can refer to someone who presents androgynously, and it can also refer to someone who has "a gender which is simultaneously feminine and masculine, although not necessarily in equal amounts." (Thanks to Gender Wiki.)

 

26 minutes ago, Tunes said:

So someone ambigender is automatically bigender (as they experience two genders), but a bigender could switch between genders instead (where ambigenders experience their genders simultaneously), thus not all bigenders are ambigender?

Yep, exactly! Definitions often overlap like that.

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Tunes
1 hour ago, Coddiwomple said:

Well, most people don't actually consider agender a gender. Even if it is effectively a gender for the purposes of wording ("their gender is agender"), it is not experienced as one. Maybe this'll clear it up: When I feel demigender, I feel a connection to a gender, but it's kind of weak/vague, I still feel partially agender, and calling myself the gender I have a connection to feels like oversimplifying, so demigender makes the most sense at the time.

Ok! That does make sense to me. I suppose agender, liguistically speaking, loses its meaning as soon as it’s combined with something, since it represents the absence of that something. While it could count as a gender identity on its own (in the same way asexuality counts as a sexual orientation on its own, even though it means an absence of it at the same time), and it can be experienced as part of the bigender experience (as long as it is a switch), it cannot be simultaneous with another identity because that would cause it to contradict itself, because it’s no longer a complete absence. Hey! I just made another connection! It’s the opposite of how I joke that I’m “very cis female”. I always felt odd saying that, because the fact that I’m not girly makes that statement feel like a contradiction - how, other than stereotypes, can you be “very” female, if there is no sliding scale, after all? And it wasn’t like I was comparing myself to anything “less female” - I had no concept of what “less female” could even look like. But I still felt like it was somehow subjectively true, so I just used it as a joke since it made some kind of emotional point but no logical sense to me. But what it represents is how *strongly* I identify with the label, not how “feminine” I am as a person. So demigirl would just be the opposite, someone who feels it’s technically true, but doesn’t identify with it as strongly. Like I would be 100% female and a demigirl would be anything less than 100%, with the other part being “agender”, in a sense - not connected with anything else particularly, just a percieved distance from the female identity (as opposed to the female stereotype, which has nothing to do with anything). And since I just described it in multiple different ways, assuming they are correct, I think I get it! Thank you! :D

 

1 hour ago, Coddiwomple said:

definitions of genders aren't really created to be clear to people who don't experience them, they're created to reflect the experiences of people who are those genders,

I know, but those definitions are still all I have to go by. I have a very powerful imagination, but to imagine something, I still need a basis for what it is that I’m trying to imagine. So definitions (and the connotations/nuances of those definitions) are all I have to work with. I never implied it was easy - for the one imagining or the one explaning. But I have found that, usually, if I stick with the topic long enough, someone will eventually say something that will click. Usually. 

 

1 hour ago, Coddiwomple said:

So, basically, a gender that's not male nor female, nor in between them, nor anything related to masculinity and feminity at all. Yeah, I don't understand it.

Hm... I suppose the difference between maverique and neutrois would be some sense of neutrality. To be neutral, you need two opposite points to sit between - in this case, female and male. So if neutral is between the two, you would feel some sort of connection to both sides, though neither would feel like a personal identity. You could still identify with them, and in relation to them, would place your identity between them. Agender means you don’t even relate to having a sense of gender at all. So if you felt that you clearly had a gender (not agender), but felt no connection to male or female (not neutrois), then that would still leave you without an identity. So, if someone said females here, males there, you wouldn’t stand in the middle (neutrois) or turn completely invisible/sink into the earth/fly up into the sky (agender), but rather, as maverique, you would start a whole new category off to the side somewhere and turn the line that stretches from male to female into a triangle, with the neutrois in the middle (probably looking confused, if for no other reason, then because the person who was just standing next to them disappeared/melted/flew away). 

 

1 hour ago, Coddiwomple said:

a gender which is simultaneously feminine and masculine, although not necessarily in equal amounts.

Ah, so the androgyne is the one standing next to the neutrois, trying to hold hands with both the male and the female groups (thus pushing the poor neutrois over there more toward the middle of the triangle formed by the maverique by trying to stretch around them). Still can’t imagine what that feels like, but that’s how it relates to the other identities, anyway. Makes enough sense to work with. And I’m enjoying the image in my head too, even if it’s not that helpful for understanding the bigger picture...

 

 

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kaysir
19 hours ago, Coddiwomple said:

Maverique (pronounced mav-reek) is a specific nonbinary gender identity 'characterized by autonomy and inner conviction regarding a sense of self that is entirely independent of male/masculinity, female/femininity or anything which derives from the two while still being neither without gender nor of a neutral gender.'" So, basically, a gender that's not male nor female, nor in between them, nor anything related to masculinity and feminity at all.

It's like how women don't have to define their womanhood by how it differs from manhood or how feminine they are. A woman isn't always feminine, not a feminine man, and not the opposite of a man. Womanhood is completely separate from manhood. Maverique is completely separate from both womanhood and manhood. As with any nb identity, maveriques can be non-neutral but still have no sense of or just no focus on masculinity and femininity.

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Coddiwomple
1 hour ago, kaysir said:

It's like how women don't have to define their womanhood by how it differs from manhood or how feminine they are. A woman isn't always feminine, not a feminine man, and not the opposite of a man. Womanhood is completely separate from manhood. Maverique is completely separate from both womanhood and manhood. As with any nb identity, maveriques can be non-neutral but still have no sense of or just no focus on masculinity and femininity.

I guess my brain just can't comprehend what it must feel like to be a gender that isn't related to masculinity or feminity in any way. I can't wrap my head around it.

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kaysir
2 minutes ago, Coddiwomple said:

I guess my brain just can't comprehend what it must feel like to be a gender that isn't related to masculinity or feminity in any way. I can't wrap my head around it.

Oho, I feel that. I'm hoping that in the same way I came to know I was nb just because I'm not entirely male or female I will come to know what it's like to be something that has nothing to do with them.

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