Sexual Allies Policing Asexual Spectrum Identities

[Guest]

9 hours ago, MichaelTannock said:

 

 

This is the most recent example, ( @lifeisntfair I apologise for bringing you into this, but people need to know that Asexuals like your wife really do exist, or they will never find acceptance inside the Asexual community)

 

I read the thread. And when the persons partner figured themselves out, they admitted a lack of desire for partnered sex, leading to a lack of a sexual relationship after years of not initiating despite enjoying it and the partner wondering how to deal with a celibate relationship. So, I am failing to see how this relates to aces wanting sex ? The issue is literally the person's partner doesn't desire sex with them. 

[everywhere and nowhere]

2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

And to be fair to AVEN as an entity, if you go down the rabbit hole of definitions on the site, you do end up with 'attraction' being defined as 'wanting to have sex with another person'. So it comes to the same thing. 

Someone wrote that defining asexuality as "not wanting to have sex" is "eliminating the intermediary".

 

For me sexuality labels are not just personal, but also something which has social significance. How a person experiences attraction doesn't have this kind of significance. But if someone never desires sex with anyone, this is going to influence their social life. It's about what kind of interpersonal relationships they decide to form. It's also about the possibility of being judged as abnormal the instant their lack of desire is known to others. It would probably be much less important in a society which acknowledged not wanting sex as a co-normal attitude. Perhaps people wouldn't feel that they need a label for that. But in our society not wanting to have sex is an act of resistance against compulsory sexuality.

I do have some issues of my own with the "attraction/desire debate", for example I still wonder if sexual attraction without sexual desire is possible (or is it never sexual attraction if it doesn't lead to desire). But what is certain to me is that I feel unable to desire sex. My own lack of desire is active - not a passive lack of interest, but active unwillingness to personally attempt things I find distressing. Why shouldn't I identify as asexual? Just because in my case it is, with all likelihood, acquired and not innate?

[NickyTannock]

8 hours ago, Serran said:

Confused. 

 

So scenarios to figure out what you are saying. Mark each one by attraction type if you dont mind.

Sorry for the late reply, I went to bed.

 

8 hours ago, Serran said:

1) Mark is cuddling with Sarah. During the cuddling, he becomes aroused and wants sex. He asks Sarah and she agrees, so they have sex. He doesn't find Sarah particularly pretty, but they have a trusting relationship so he feels safe having sex with her.

Sensual Attraction.

He wants sex because of arousal, which is a bodily response, and he's only having sex with her because he feels safe having sex with her. But presumably, he's cuddling her because he wants to, which is Sensual Attraction.

 

8 hours ago, Serran said:

2) James is out at a bar and sees Alicia dancing. Her body movement makes him want to spend the night with her.

Sexual Attraction.

Something about her makes him want sex, and want it with her, which is Sexual Attraction.

 

8 hours ago, Serran said:

3) Cory is horny and wants sex. He goes out to a bar and begins talking to ladies until he finds one that seems appealing enough to take home. 

Nothing.

The one he takes home didn't cause him to want sex, and he found her by shopping around like someone looking for a suitable sex toy rather than because of an attraction to her.

[Telecaster68]

@MichaelTannock

 

But in scenario 1, Mark wants sex, for his own benefit. He initiates. How is that asexual?

 

And in scenario 3, why did he pick that woman instead of inviting literally the first person he saw when he walked out of his front door? 

[everywhere and nowhere]

1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

But in scenario 1, Mark wants sex, for his own benefit. He initiates. How is that asexual?

He didn't say that it's asexual, he just said that it was originally about sensual attraction. Are you implying that only asexuals experience sensual attraction? Now that would be rather absurd...

[Telecaster68]

But if he wants to have sex with her for his own pleasure, to the point of progressing from cuddles to sex, he must be experiencing sexual attraction, so he's not asexual. 

[R_1]

Can't really see how wanting sex alone means attraction. I'm a demi-heteroromantic leaning to aro, but I have to be honest that I definitely can get way less opposed to the idea of sex if I know that woman for a long time, and feel a strong emotional attraction, and if she lets me know that she wants to have sex, I would definitely yes only because of the fact that I am emotionally attracted, but it wouldn't be for my benefit since the idea of sex alone is something I'm either indifferent to or it's just no. In this case, the only reason I would want sex is for her benefit, not for myself.

[Ceebs]

14 minutes ago, MichaelTannock said:

9 hours ago, Serran said:

1) Mark is cuddling with Sarah. During the cuddling, he becomes aroused and wants sex. He asks Sarah and she agrees, so they have sex. He doesn't find Sarah particularly pretty, but they have a trusting relationship so he feels safe having sex with her.

Sensual Attraction.

He wants sex because of arousal, which is a bodily response, and he's only having sex with her because he feels safe having sex with her. But presumably, he's cuddling her because he wants to, which is Sensual Attraction.

 

That's, like... a really really common scenario in terms of how sex happens between sexual people. There's literally nothing asexual about that scenario.

 

Man, I'm just gonna give up on these threads eventually. Actually I propose a new definition of asexuality that makes everyone asexual except for when they're fucking someone. Had sex five minutes ago but you're done now? Asexual. Haven't had sex in the past year? Asexual. Still a virgin? Asexual. Planning on having sex tonight but it's not tonight yet? Asexual.

[Telecaster68]

Sex alone is called masturbation. 

 

It's possible (and fairly common) to just want sex - the touch and closeness of another human body as well as the sensual pleasure. Masturbation doesn't cut it. Ideally it would be with a relationship partner but sometimes a lesser connection, even just someone else with a shared need for that connection is enough. You're still picking who it'll be be though. There is a person to whom you're attracted; it's not some version of of attractions that doesn't need an object. 

[Telecaster68]

3 minutes ago, CBC said:

That's, like... a really really common scenario in terms of how sex happens between sexual people. There's literally nothing asexual about that scenario

It's called responsive desire. 

[NickyTannock]

3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

But if he wants to have sex with her for his own pleasure, to the point of progressing from cuddles to sex, he must be experiencing sexual attraction, so he's not asexual. 

He's experiencing Arousal, which I'm told is not an attraction. And I didn't say he's Asexual or mean to suggest that he is.

 

1 minute ago, CBC said:

That's, like... a really really common scenario in terms of how sex happens between sexual people. There's literally nothing asexual about that scenario.

I didn't say he's Asexual or mean to suggest that he is.

 

10 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

And in scenario 3, why did he pick that woman instead of inviting literally the first person he saw when he walked out of his front door? 

Any number of reason's that make her a convenient choice.

 

I won't pretend that I know more about Sexual Attraction than you do since I don't experience it whereas you do.
Instead, I'll explain why I'm taking the position that I am so that you can clarify the reality for me.
I'm working from the AVEN definition of Asexuality found in "READ ME: A Guide and FAQ to the Asexual Q&A Wonderland", which I'll break into three parts so you can see the equation that's going on in my head:

 

"an emotional response that sexual people often feel" - "that results in a desire for sexual contact" - "with the person that the attraction is felt towards."

[Ceebs]

4 minutes ago, MichaelTannock said:

I didn't say he's Asexual or mean to suggest that he is.

But you realise that in the real world, like everywhere that isn't AVEN, that's still sexual desire and sexual folks don't sit around categorising the exact factors that make them want to fuck someone in any given scenario?

[Telecaster68]

5 minutes ago, MichaelTannock said:

He's experiencing Arousal, which I'm told is not an attraction. 

So why not just masturbate instead of initiate sex? It would deal with the arousal. He's aroused because of touching someone he's attracted to. 

 

7 minutes ago, MichaelTannock said:

Any number of reason's that make her a convenient choice.

Such as? 

[NickyTannock]

2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

So why not just masturbate instead of initiate sex? It would deal with the arousal.

If he were alone he probably would.

 

3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

He's aroused because of touching someone he's attracted to. 

Someone he's Sensually and Romantically attracted to.

 

4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Such as? 

Willingness to have sex.

 

 

6 minutes ago, CBC said:

But you realise that in the real world, like everywhere that isn't AVEN, that's still sexual desire and sexual folks don't sit around categorising the exact factors that make them want to fuck someone in any given scenario?

It's the desire for sex, but it's not the desire for sex with a specific person.

 

 

Now, stepping out of the debate for the moment, both of your arguments do make sense to me. It makes perfect sense to define a Sexual as someone who desires sex, and an Asexual as someone who doesn't.
I'm only arguing because of the definitions I read, that makes a distinction between sexual desire and sexual attraction.

[Philip027]

Quote

Man, I'm just gonna give up on these threads eventually. Actually I propose a new definition of asexuality that makes everyone asexual except for when they're fucking someone. Had sex five minutes ago but you're done now? Asexual. Haven't had sex in the past year? Asexual. Still a virgin? Asexual. Planning on having sex tonight but it's not tonight yet? Asexual.

I wouldn't joke like that; I'm sure there's someone on tumblr or something who legitimately thinks that way.

[NickyTannock]

7 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

I wouldn't joke like that; I'm sure there's someone on tumblr or something who legitimately thinks that way.

I hope not.

[Light02]

This whole discussion is reminding me of something that I've been confused about for a while. I've often imagined this scenario: what if I had access to a very human-looking sex doll, would I have sex with it and would I like it? I think, hypothetically, I would try it out of curiosity but I probably wouldn't like it/care for it (the sexual act) that much. But I'm not absolutely repulsed by the idea of it, unlike when I imagine having sex with a real person. So, I wonder, why is that? I think there's something about the fact that they would be an actual, real person, with their own thoughts and feelings and, for some reason, that makes it repulsive for me to engage with them in sex. That seems a bit weird, though, it really confuses me. Is it some kind of insecurity that I have, some kind of mental block? Why would I be fine with the "mechanics" of sex but not with another person? It just doesn't make sense. 

[Ceebs]

49 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

I wouldn't joke like that; I'm sure there's someone on tumblr or something who legitimately thinks that way.

Well there is "aceflux", which basically seems to be "when I want sex I'm sexual, when I don't I'm asexual", so...

[NickyTannock]

1 minute ago, CBC said:

Well there is "aceflux", which basically seems to be "when I want sex I'm sexual, when I don't I'm asexual", so...

That's a thing?

[NickyTannock]

11 minutes ago, Light02 said:

This whole discussion is reminding me of something that I've been confused about for a while. I've often imagined this scenario: what if I had access to a very human-looking sex doll, would I have sex with it and would I like it? I think, hypothetically, I would try it out of curiosity but I probably wouldn't like it/care for it (the sexual act) that much. But I'm not absolutely repulsed by the idea of it, unlike when I imagine having sex with a real person. So, I wonder, why is that? I think there's something about the fact that they would be an actual, real person, with their own thoughts and feelings and, for some reason, that makes it repulsive for me to engage with them in sex. That seems a bit weird, though, it really confuses me. Is it some kind of insecurity that I have, some kind of mental block? Why would I be fine with the "mechanics" of sex but not with another person? It just doesn't make sense. 

In my case, I wouldn't even have sex with the lifelike doll.

 

If I had to guess the reason that you wouldn't have a problem having sex with the doll as opposed to a real person, I think it's because the doll would be an object, whereas another person would be a subject.

[Ceebs]

9 minutes ago, MichaelTannock said:

That's a thing?

Well, whether it's an actual thing is another matter, but it's a thing that gets discussed and debated, yep. I recently got a nudge for getting into an argument about it. I've heard absolutely nothing about aceflux that doesn't make it entirely synonymous with normal fluctuating sexuality, or at best a case of not being certain of one's sexuality or having underlying issues that contribute to a wide variance in interest levels. The thing is, if you experience desire for sex at any point, that negates the possibility of being asexual.

[Light02]

29 minutes ago, MichaelTannock said:

In my case, I wouldn't even have sex with the lifelike doll.

 

If I had to guess the reason that you wouldn't have a problem having sex with the doll as opposed to a real person, I think it's because the doll would be an object, whereas another person would be a subject.

Yeah, but that's what I don't understand, why does it matter if it is an object or a subject? What's the reason?

[ryn2]

An object makes it masturbation with toys?  In this case the toy is just more comprehensive.

 

Granted, some people treat sex with other people that way as well, but that implies an ability to tune out those things that normally set people apart from objects.

 

~

 

I personally find the definition “someone who is asexual does not intrinsically want partnered sexual activity” clearest but I know others say it does not work for them.

 

The place I get most confused is when two posters describe what to me sounds like identical behavior, interest, and motivation... but one considers themselves (and anyone like them) sexual whereas the other considers themselves (and, again, anyone like them) asexual.  Maybe there is a subtle difference but it’s obviously not clear to me.

[Tasha the demi squirrel]

Have to say I've not seen too much policing/gatekeeping I've seen more people explaining the labels and reminding people that no one can choose their label for them that's why whenever I talk about Aven I'm always saying how supportive and welcoming the community is

[NickyTannock]

30 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I personally find the definition “someone who is asexual does not intrinsically want partnered sexual activity” clearest but I know others say it does not work for them.

 

The place I get most confused is when two posters describe what to me sounds like identical behavior, interest, and motivation... but one considers themselves (and anyone like them) sexual whereas the other considers themselves (and, again, anyone like them) asexual.  Maybe there is a subtle difference but it’s obviously not clear to me.

The difference as I understand it is that Sexual Attraction is a desire to have sex with a person that is caused by something about that person.

 

So if you wanted to have sex with someone, but it doesn't matter to you if it's them you're having sex with or someone else, then it's the act of sex that you find attractive, and not them, so it's not an attraction you feel to them.

I'm likely wrong about there being a difference though, as the two Sexuals I argued with here, seem to be saying that if you desire sex and then choose someone to have sex with, then that means you find them sexually attractive.

 

And someone who experiences Sexual Attraction would understand it better than me.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, R_1 said:

Can't really see how wanting sex alone means attraction. I'm a demi-heteroromantic leaning to aro, but I have to be honest that I definitely can get way less opposed to the idea of sex if I know that woman for a long time, and feel a strong emotional attraction, and if she lets me know that she wants to have sex, I would definitely yes only because of the fact that I am emotionally attracted, but it wouldn't be for my benefit since the idea of sex alone is something I'm either indifferent to or it's just no. In this case, the only reason I would want sex is for her benefit, not for myself.

Depends on what you mean by 'for her benifit'. If you meant you love the idea of actually getting her off then that's relatively common. Desiring sex doesn't always mean you only want to get yourself off or even desire to get off mutually, some people love getting someone else off but don't care about their own pleasure. Ergo they're desiring the emotional aspects of sex without being too fussed about the physical.

 

However if you're perfectly content without partnered sex in your life, have no desire to seek it out for pleasure, and would only do it because you want to try to keep a partner who may otherwise leave you or be very unhappy without it, then obviously that's still asexual. 

[R_1]

12 minutes ago, Ficto. said:

Depends on what you mean by 'for her benifit'. If you meant you love the idea of actually getting her off then that's relatively common. Desiring sex doesn't always mean you only want to get yourself off or even desire to get off mutually, some people love getting someone else off but don't care about their own pleasure. Ergo they're desiring the emotional aspects of sex without being too fussed about the physical.

 

However if you're perfectly content without partnered sex in your life, have no desire to seek it out for pleasure, and would only do it because you want to try to keep a partner who may otherwise leave you or be very unhappy without it, then obviously that's still asexual. 

 

I fall on the second myself. Perfectly content without partnered sex. To clarify, I'm not exactly opposed to sex as a whole, but only would be ok with giving it provided a strong emotional trust. Kind of going on vacation with someone you like to make that person happy, but you're not interested into the vacation, but the goal is for that person, and that's what you want to see.

[Telecaster68]

1 hour ago, Light02 said:

Yeah, but that's what I don't understand, why does it matter if it is an object or a subject? What's the reason?

Because the point of sex to sexuals is that it's with another human being and there is interaction, not just a means to orgasm which someone else is helping with. 

[R_1]

3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Because the point of sex to sexuals is that it's with another human being and there is interaction, not just a means to orgasm which someone else is helping with. 

But, the question is that even though there is interaction, what exactly separates the general mental state of those two, and if there could be two different mental state of being, then is it possible that a person could have the other mental state that's usually founded in one of those circumstances?

[Telecaster68]

I'm sorry, I don't really understand the question.