"Demisexuality" and Misunderstanding Sexual Attraction

[Kayze]

To clarify my stances on things because too much text might be why it's apparent enough:

• Being a sexual is fine.
• Having sex is fine.
• Sex is not primitive, shallow, gross, nor emotionally empty.
• Sex can (and often does) involve emotional enhancers, because of passion.
• Sexual attraction is attraction on the basis of sexual desire or the quality of arousing such interest.
• As the latter part states, you do not need to have the desire to sleep or act on the attraction for it to exist. - my point
• A lot of people claiming to be demisexual do admittedly experience sexual attraction but think that because they're not acting on it, it doesn't exist. - this thread's point
• I'm not demisexual but as a gray-asexual, I am empathize with the idea that there is no sexual attraction at all until maybe a certain circumstance.
• It's common that sexual people need more attractions towards a person before having sexual desire to act on it, but can still still have a "quality of arousing such interest."
• Being gray-asexual doesn't mean I don't understand sexual attraction. It's merely frequency and condition.
• However, some gray-asexuals may also have low libido or a very low level of sexual attraction if any. I do not have either.

There's probably more but it's getting too long and likely will defeat the purpose of the post existing if I continue.

[Ceebs]

1 hour ago, Kayze said:

I'm not demisexual but as a gray-asexual, I am empathize with the idea that there is no sexual attraction at all until maybe a certain circumstance.

Isn't that true for literally everyone that experiences sexual attraction, though? No one pops out of the womb ready to bang every other human being.

[Philip027]

Quote

(demisexuality is nothing to do with being able to find strangers attractive. Finding someone attractive is not synonymous with wanting to have sex with them).

I meant sexually attractive, and yes, I do think those things are synonymous.  Sexual attraction kinda doesn't mean anything otherwise.

 

The rest is mostly just a semantics argument, so not going to engage in that.  You can skirt around the whole "emotional bond" thing (very vague wording to base a definition on, for the record), but at the end of the day, the primary thing that separates demis from typical sexuals is that they aren't able to feel attracted toward people they don't know well, whereas sexual people, the vast majority of them, can be.  And the vast majority of society is sexual, not demi.

 

Quote

Okay, so I thought that the majority of people who say something like that "oh I'd totally do her right now!" are feeling sexual attraction but for most people who say that it's still a thing they would never follow through on. Is that right? They would make a comment like that but if the person heard and was like "sure!" they would be weired out.

Yeah, I don't do that.  If people say something like that I'm going to take them at their word.  Which is maybe gullible of me... but really, I think if someone doesn't mean something, they shouldn't be saying it.

[Kayze]

20 minutes ago, asshole said:

Isn't that true for literally everyone that experiences sexual attraction, though? No one pops out of the womb ready to bang every other human being.

Again, feeling =/= act, as said several times and even on that same list. It's in the definition ffs

[Ceebs]

I generally don't consider myself stupid, although I'm open to the possibility I guess... but I'm blanking on what, specifically, you mean by that. No, feeling something isn't the same as doing something. Yes, and? No one thinks about sex or feels sexual desire or starts having sex from the moment they're born. Everyone has some sort of "first" circumstance. Having that at 24 after falling in love or whatever doesn't make a person partly asexual even if it does make them a "late bloomer" and even if their experiences up until that point made them question whether they may be asexual (and there's nothing wrong with them doing so, as long as they don't shut their mind off to other possibilities and experiences).

 

If I'm misunderstanding, correct me.

[Grumpy Alien]

I have about 12 and a half things to say in response but honestly, this feels a lot like trying to explain the planet is round to a flat earther.

[ryn2]

10 hours ago, Philip027 said:

I don't think there is anything ambiguous about people saying they would "do" or "bone down" with X person that they have never interacted with / is only attainable in their fantasies, and that is something I have heard many, many people talking about.  Again, it is the normal and expected behavior.  You are considered *weird* if you cannot do this or otherwise insisting that you have no X person in your mind that you find personally desirable (and not just "generally attractive").

I wonder if this has a cultural or geographic component to it, as it’s also very true/common/typical (to the point of being nearly ubiquitous) where I live.  When people are winking and saying “I’d hit that/I’d tap that/I wouldn’t kick that out of bed,” I don’t think they are voicing simple aesthetic attraction.

 

There is also a lot of peer pressure to participate, not just for men (and not just for teens).

 

I know a lot of the world considers at least some portions of US culture/behavior crass and juvenile, though, so this sort of thing may be less commonplace elsewhere.

[Telecaster68]

I think it's more to do with aspiness (with all due respect, Phil).

 

I mean it is crass and juvenile, but Brits do something similar, and it's not meant literally.

 

Actual info on the subject - a famous psychology experiment showed basically men were several times more likely to say 'yes' to a random woman asking them for sex, than vice versa.

[Philip027]

Not at all surprised, and it pretty much reinforces my disillusionment and alienation with the male sex.

 

I really don't think the societal norms and expected behavior around here have shifted for me just because I'm AS, though.

[Telecaster68]

16 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

 

I really don't think the societal norms and expected behavior around here have shifted for me just because I'm AS, though.

I think it makes you more inclined to take utterances at their literal meaning rather than see their social function.

[Philip027]

If that were the case, I'd have been informing the authorities regarding threats of physical violence every time I heard someone say they'd "hit that" regarding someone else.

 

Really though, I think it's a lot more believable that these people are experiencing legitimate sexual attraction, rather than that they're all just making shit up and putting on a show especially for me.

[Telecaster68]

It's not for you, it's for each other. It means 'I too am a red blooded man and worthy of being in your group', with a dash of the same sentiment as pointing out a nice sunset to an appreciative friend.

[Guest DesertWells]

To say “needing an emotional connection is normal in society” is really inaccurate. I think we all know this really.

I have a large group of friends (male and female), all of them experience crushes (real and celebrity), they constantly discuss “smashing that guy/girl”, and they very much mean it - it may be fantasy, but they are feeling that attraction. Whether I’ve met people in school, college, uni, work, most people behave in this way.

 

Could I participate in hookup culture? Of course I could - I have a libido, but so do some asexuals. Asexuals could choose to have sex too, it doesn’t make them any less asexual. The choice is irrelevant, it’s the intention/motivation behind the choice that defines you. You can also eat when you’re not hungry, but it doesn’t mean hunger doesn’t exist. 

 

I always felt out of place, I used to think I was asexual. It took me a long time - and a very specific set of circumstances - to fall in love with someone for the first time. Before that, I had never had a crush, never been turned on by anyone. I looked at this girl I deeply loved and for the first time I felt sexual attraction, it was profound to me.

 

The biggest distinction for me is that I look at a girl (that I don’t love) and she’s almost a genderless entity, she barely enters my thoughts, and my interest is so little that I am rarely motivated to get to know her better.

 

I know how I feel, I know what my life and experiences have been like, even my family and friends think I’m weird for not wanting to “hit” every girl who flirts with me. It is nothing to do with being a late bloomer, but everything to do with a complete lack of interest in the opposite sex (until a connection is formed). As you can imagine, forming that connection is quite difficult in itself when you’re just not interested in the prospect to begin with.

 

If you were strictly debating that demisexual should be in it’s own spectrum (maybe a grey spectrum), I wouldn’t have much complaint about that, because I would never identify as strictly asexual, but I think it’s quite ignorant to claim that the demisexual label shouldn’t exist.

[Snao Cone]

1 hour ago, DesertWells said:

To say “needing an emotional connection is normal in society” is really inaccurate.

No it's not. When you get down to really talking about this, many of the people who say "I'd hit that" will further explain that it's not literal, but an aesthetic appreciation that doesn't determine future sexual action or interest. Your social group may be different, but it doesn't nullify my social group (of those who don't identify as ace/grey/demi), or make them a bunch of weirdos. 

[ryn2]

The impression I get is that “I’d hit that” is (sure, sometimes posturing just to fit in with the crowd, but also) different than aesthetic attraction.  It’s not just “green looks nice with that hair color,” it’s “this person falls within my boundaries of ‘oh h**l yes would f**k him’ (or her, or them).  It’s not the intense 1:1 sexual attraction of “dancing is foreplay and now I want to duck into a coat closet with you,” but it’s not just an abstract, aesthetic assessment of visual appeal either.

 

Demis on here, please correct me if I’m wrong - it seems like demisexuality is roughly the opposite experience to a f**kbuddy “catching feelings.”  In other words, sexual attraction arises unexpectedly in a relationship that had been a platonic friendship up until that point.

 

I don’t think that’s quite the same experience as “I am not drawn to casual sex and need to get to know people before I’m sexually attracted to them.”

[ryn2]

5 minutes ago, Snao Cone said:

Your social group may be different, but it doesn't nullify my social group (of those who don't identify as ace/grey/demi), or make them a bunch of weirdos. 

This was my question earlier about whether there’s a cultural or geographic/local component to this.

[anisotrophic]

43 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

sexual attraction arises unexpectedly in a relationship that had been a platonic friendship up until that point.

This happens to me, it's how "attracted to someone" has usually happened to me. (Including how I met my partner.) Deliberate dating feels like a contrived attempt to replace this natural flow (but I can see why it's useful to do it).

[ryn2]

Hm.  Ah hah moment here.  I’m not that way about friends at all... once someone is a friend I feel the same sort of squicky feeling about finding them interesting from a sexual standpoint that others describe having about family.  I wonder if that’s why I lose sexual interest in people (without losing love for them) over time?

 

Sorry, that was OT.

 

Not being demi, I don’t know if it feels different in between relationships than those who consider themselves “plain old sexual but not interested in casual sex” do...

[Telecaster68]

I've had it both ways. Mostly 'sexual attraction' is pretty much how CBC/asshole describes it. Transient and mild, registering that someone, on first sight, might be my type, and maybe I give them a second glance. It's not the same as aesthetic attraction, and isn't necessarily about traditional good looks, more like a sense of the kind of person they might be. It's fairly often not really to do with looks much at all (I have a kind of threshold 'not like Jabber The Hutt', but above that, I'm not that bothered. I notice, and could rate them on a 1-10 physically, or sexually attractive based on how I'm fairly sure most people would see them, but above about a 3, I just don't care. I hate that scale as it's silly and reductive, but I know how it works). For instance, some of the actresses I fancy like mad are really not conventionally aesthetically attractive at all (Juliet Stevenson, Tamsin Greig) but they have something that just makes me give an inner 'phwwwwooooarrrr'. I also notice - again in passing - some physical attributes, in a mildly pervy way, but I'd never act on this kind of thing in isolation.

 

Mostly this leads nowhere, and is about as intense as noticing the colour of someone's hair. Just part of the scenery, or vaguely distracting to admire on a train journey. This sounds like aesthetic attraction, but it's not. It's about noticing the signals they're giving off that I might them sexually attractive as a person. The other day, for instance, I noticed a woman reading Chekhov on the train. She was physically average, but I found I kept looking at her. It's kind of a fascination.

 

Actual 'I would like to have sex with you' only happens after finding out more about them, mostly to do with whether we have a good mental connection - wit, outlook, intelligence, just.... do I feel good with them. And again, it takes a sustain period of that before I'd ever dream of doing anything about it, as well as reciprocation of a similar interest in me from them.

 

I know none of this fits the AVEN paradigm of sexual attraction, and that's kind of my point. Asexuals, or near-asexuals, explaining to me  how it works based on AVEN wiki entries and other half-baked theories from very inexperienced people really annoy me.

[Ceebs]

That's the thing with a lot of people coming here as, essentially, kids. They're either in the midst of or just starting to outgrow the age range where their emotionally and sexually immature hormone-riddled peers are behaving as though they would absolutely bang anything with big tits or a dreamy smile or a nice ass or whatever, and that's a really really bad demographic to look to in order to understand mature human sexuality. Are there some people who act on that stuff and continue doing so well into their later years? Of course. Is that how it works for most of us? No.

[Lucinda]

I remember when the concept of primary vs secondary sexual attraction was introduced by Rabger and the term "demisexuality" was coined by sonofzeal.

 

All primary sexual attraction boils down to is finding another person sexually attractive (as indicative of your type(s), how you roll, your orientation, etc). based on information initially available.  Demis are saying they do not and therefore cannot determine if someone is sexually attractive to them without further information or ever.  It goes beyond aesthetic appreciation as one can gather other info (besides looks) about a person by observing or interacting with them.  I can certainly tell if someone is my type without being friends with them for an extended period of time.  CBC seemed to find the mall clerk attractive.  Whether one acts on it depends on circumstances, personality, etc.  

 

I do find it common.

 

I remember when one self-proclaimed demi gal joined the forum to ask a few questions.  Ithaca and I answered her and she was on her way.  She came back 3 months later with the exact same questions.  She could not understand how anyone (including her husband) could find anyone else in the world sexually attractive nor how anyone could have a general desire for sex even before having a specific target.  This was totally outside what she could fathom.  

 

My questions for @DesertWells is:

 

1. Did you find your ex sexually attractive at the point where you realized you were attracted to the idea of having sex with her?
2. Do you want a sexual relationship with another person in the future?

@Kayze can you describe the circumstances that you mentioned -or- does it depend from situation to situation?

 

Lucinda

[ryn2]

34 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Mostly this leads nowhere, and is about as intense as noticing the colour of someone's hair. Just part of the scenery, or vaguely distracting to admire on a train journey. This sounds like aesthetic attraction, but it's not. It's about noticing the signals they're giving off that I might them sexually attractive as a person. The other day, for instance, I noticed a woman reading Chekhov on the train. She was physically average, but I found I kept looking at her. It's kind of a fascination.

 

Actual 'I would like to have sex with you' only happens after finding out more about them,

This is how I understand the term as well.  The impression I then get is that the above is not what demis experience, which is what differentiates them experience-wise from “everyone else,” but I’m not one so I can’t say for sure.

[anisotrophic]

1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Transient and mild, registering that someone, on first sight, might be my type, and maybe I give them a second glance.

 

25 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

The impression I then get is that the above is not what demis experience, which is what differentiates them experience-wise from “everyone else,” but I’m not one so I can’t say for sure.

I experience this double-take thing too, pretty occasionally, but none of these have ever led to flirtation or dating for me. Also, I'm pretty sure it only started after I became sexually experienced and, as a result, more able to randomly have thoughts in that category (i.e. lived experience changed my perceptions of others).

 

But. I've had several sexual partners (most long in the past) and they were always someone I had known pretty well as a friend first – followed by some signal or admission of attraction, etc. Which is why this seems "normal" to me. The type of attraction I'm feeling that leads to a sexual interaction vs. the double-take moments ... have been historically totally separate for me, and latter pretty rare/weak at that.

(So I think @Telecaster68 is right to note that there's complexity here.)

And this doubletake experience, which I didn't experience until later, and weakly, and had nothing to do with sexual attractions that led to sexual intimacy... I wouldn't (didn't) feel unusual if (when) I never experienced it. To describe my own microcosm or social context (historically female, nerd in nerdland, not many friends), I can't recall experiencing nontrivial social pressure to experience these feelings.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, DesertWells said:

If you were strictly debating that demisexual should be in it’s own spectrum (maybe a grey spectrum), I wouldn’t have much complaint about that, because I would never identify as strictly asexual, but I think it’s quite ignorant to claim that the demisexual label shouldn’t exist.

No one was saying the label itself shouldn't exist, but that what's commonly defined as demisexuality is something that many 'average' people experience. I myself experience my sexuality almost exactly how you described yours (word for word) but I'm not somewhere on the ace spectrum even though it took me until I was 28 before I finally met someone who gave me those feelings.

 

3 hours ago, DesertWells said:

Could I participate in hookup culture? Of course I could - I have a libido, but so do some asexuals.

 

 I absolutely could NOT participate in hookup culture like you said you could here, there's a literal internal wall there making me utterly unable to even consider intimate contact with someone I am not emotionally attracted to. It would cause me actual pain to even attempt to touch a man I have not developed an emotional attraction to through getting to know him (that's no guarantee I'll get those feelings but it's the only way to try).

 

I'm not saying my specific experience is necessarily a common one (though there are indeed many people who are averse to casual sexual encounters) but I find it interesting that you (as someone identifying as demi) said you could easily participate in hookup culture due to your libido, when I (as someone who is not demi) could literally not even consider it. No matter how horny I was (I could have soaked my jeans right through and be dripping on the floor) I'd lose that feeling in a SECOND the moment someone (who I do not have that deep emotional connection with) wanted to be intimate with me. It's like if someone tried to make me have sex with something illegal or strange or whatever ..my body is just incapable of *wanting* it.

 

And yes I know it's not solely about action but I'm talking about underlying, innate feelings which are what cause my ability to take action on my libido or not. *Shrug*. But I'm not some kind of ace because of my strong innate aversion to hooking up with people I barely know.

 

3 hours ago, DesertWells said:

To say “needing an emotional connection is normal in society” is really inaccurate. I think we all know this really.

After literally every sexual person in this thread has said they need an emotional connection before they can actively desire sexual intimacy, and/or that they know many people who are like that? You still go and say the vast majority of us could happily screw anything?

 

Please don't take your friend group as indicative of society at large. Many, many sexual people are innately averse to the idea of hooking up with random people. I'm talking about their innate feelings, not their external actions.

 

It's common for people to only actively want to engage on a sexual level with someone once they've developed an emotional connection with them. Almost any mature, sexually experienced person will tell you this. Just because your friends all seem to be into the casual sex scene certainly doesn't mean sexuals are all like that. 

 

I will reply to some of the things others have said later when I can actually get on my comp and see what I'm typing properly - I got stuck with the black font on my phone somehow just now, and I need to get my kids to school anyway.

[Ceebs]

7 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

I experience this double-take thing too, pretty occasionally, but none of these have ever led to flirtation or dating for me. Also, I'm pretty sure it only started after I became sexually experienced and, as a result, more able to randomly have thoughts in that category (i.e. lived experience changed my perceptions of others).

Same, exactly. Could not have said it better. I've never acted on that stuff, that's not a circumstance that would lead to a meaningful romantic connection for me. Actual love has been a result of close friendship and some sort of indicator of developing attraction.

 

I think your microcosm, social context, whatever, are very similar to mine.

[Snao Cone]

7 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

It's fairly often not really to do with looks much at all (I have a kind of threshold 'not like Jabber The Hutt', but above that, I'm not that bothered. I notice, and could rate them on a 1-10 physically, or sexually attractive based on how I'm fairly sure most people would see them, but above about a 3, I just don't care. I hate that scale as it's silly and reductive, but I know how it works).

This is a lesson I think a lot of less experienced people are missing. It would've made a big difference for me if I had learned the wider variety of attraction among mature people, because I held onto the "I'm not having sex because I'm not attractive enough" excuse for too long. I was deluding myself, really, and I let it do a lot of damage to my self-esteem. I think one important part of making sure young people know what a wide range there is of sexuality is to help them overcome reservations about their bodies, whether they are asexual or not. 

[ryn2]

@FictoCannibal., do you think what you’re experiencing is the same thing people who consider themselves demisexual experience (meaning the difference is more that you don’t feel comfortable wearing the label), or do you think their experience is different?

[Grumpy Alien]

@FictoCannibal. I would never be able to participate in a hookup either. Beyond not wanting to, I have vaginismus. If my head says no, so does my lady cave. But my head will definitely say a big fat no to some random stranger. I don’t even trust them with such an intimate act and I can’t fathom desiring to share a sexual experience with what is essentially just a body, a moving talking corpse. To me, sex is a lot more than just movements and would be horrible without emotions.

[ryn2]

I think the biggest thing I’ve learned on AVEN is that there is a lot less real commonality of experience across people than we tend to assume.  People group together under common labels (or the lack thereof) but their individual experience of “all things sex/sexuality-related” varies widely.

[Ceebs]

16 minutes ago, Graceful said:

@FictoCannibal. I would never be able to participate in a hookup either. Beyond not wanting to, I have vaginismus. If my head says no, so does my lady cave. But my head will definitely say a big fat no to some random stranger. I don’t even trust them with such an intimate act and I can’t fathom desiring to share a sexual experience with what is essentially just a body, a moving talking corpse. To me, sex is a lot more than just movements and would be horrible without emotions.

Same. Well, other than the vaginismus part. Also I have social anxiety, so there's that. Yesterday I went out on my front porch to take a photo of the rainclouds, and I live on a kinda-major street in my city and it was afternoon rush hour. I decided it was too people-y outside and scooted back indoors.  I'm the sort of person who hides when someone rings my doorbell. I have literally no idea how I would facilitate getting naked with a stranger even if I really wanted to, which I don't.