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how to bring up my spouse's possible asexuality with him


GeorginaDarcy

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Do you think this will make him more or less likely to have sex with his wife?

My impression on reading the initial post is that OP wants to find a way to open effective communication on the topic presently and that the question of more sex is still down the road.

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So to answer the OP's title question, you recommend not mentioning it?

 

Or do you think it is better that the husband remain guilty, if he is indeed guilty?

 

Lucinda

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1 minute ago, Lucinda said:

So to answer the OP's title question, you recommend not mentioning it?

If you’re asking me, no, I just agreed with one of the other posters that finding a way to broach the subject will take some careful consideration.

 

If you were asking someone else, sorry!

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5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I offered a suggestion on my first post. I also think it's counterproductive to suggest things that run against all experience and knowledge of human nature.

 

Here's an analogy: in the 19th century, a gay man gets married because homosexuality isn't accepted or understood and marriage is expected. For the next twenty years, his lack of desire for his wife causes her constant pain. He's upset by this, and keeps promising to try to want to have sex with her, but doesn't. Increasingly he avoids even talking about it. Then he meets someone who tells him about homosexuality and that it's a perfectly valid orientation. He's relieved and happy, a burden of guilt off his shoulders.

 

Do you think this will make him more or less likely to have sex with his wife?

Neither. In the short term.
In the long term, it improves their chances, meaning he'll be more likely.
The reason being that there is a root to the promises and avoidance, that's finally known.

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Hi @GeorginaDarcy! I would politely disagree with @Telecaster68's take and give my own experience.

My partner and I had trouble making any sort of change, and understanding asexuality made an enormous difference for us. I brought it to him, and the thing that pushed me into learning about asexuality was my LGBTQIA+ therapist. So in a sense there was this external validity, maybe? A third party that was ace-aware brought the possibility out for us.

One thing I remember is repeatedly asking him what he wanted sexually -- what he desired -- and him repeatedly insisting "nothing". And me repeatedly thinking "maybe he's not admitting or accepting what he wants" instead of really accepting the answer could truly be a big zilch. And him wanting to change, attributing it various temporary reasons. That was true for over a dozen years.

I remember reading this blogpost before approaching my partner and trying to follow its advice: https://theacetheist.wordpress.com/2014/03/24/what-to-do-if-you-think-your-partner-might-be-asexual/

It did change everything.

Most importantly, I think, was to see it as an orientation. Like being gay. Something enduring. Not a dysfunction. Not something that can be changed -- or should be -- attempting to do so as fruitless and misguided as attempts to change other orientations.

That meant he was having a profoundly different experience, and I hadn't known that. It meant he realized *I* had a profoundly different experience.

I learned how to approach him for sexual intimacy, in a way that didn't stress him. To accept doing so while knowing the sex was to make me happy, that he didn't experience attraction. And my impression is that he increased prioritizing sexual intimacy for me in a way he wasn't able to do before, because he was indifferent -- it was a minor chore for him -- and he realized how genuinely different my own experience was. I think we moved from a pattern of ask/decline/hurt/guilt to support for each other's orientation.

(The whole experience was also a lot of grief for me. I fell apart. He was very supportive of me getting through it.)

As the blogpost I linked describes, my partner didn't go "Aha! That's it!" in a flash. There were many conversations, many weeks to process, maybe months to really settle into it. One thing I found is that the more time that passed where he experienced no pressure to experience "attraction", the more he felt that he never did experience it.

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everywhere and nowhere
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Surely he'll conclude that achieving a compromise is less likely than before he realised he was asexual, so he has even less reason to talk about it.

 

He knows he doesn't want sex. All he's done is learn a new word.

And here I have to agree.

I don't like it when you so easily accuse that person of selfishness, but here I absolutely agree. I just don't understand the dimensions this "asexual lightbulb moment" seems to reach in some narratives.

"I finally realised that there's nothing wrong with me" - this is something I understand. But when people write "I realised that I'm asexual and that I don't have to have sex" - I'll never understand this because for me it's obvious that everyone has a right not to have sex, regardless of their self-identification. There should never be a double standard for The Asexuals (which are now portrayed as those who don't desire sex) and Everyone Else (which are, in this kind of narrative, still expected to desire sex at least every now and then).

So, well - there's nothing wrong with suggesting the OP's spouse that he may be asexual - but I doubt that it could change much for him. He already realises that he doesn't desire sex. I particularly doubt that it could help him reach a compromise with the OP - they have already attempted it. However, learning that he may be asexual could perhaps help him explain his feelings better. He could just be a person who doesn't feel comfortable talking about his feelings - but the OP has already said that he is a person who communicates well in all other areas. Probably he's confused - he realises that he doesn't desire sex, but receives no validation because all messages all around us tell him that he should desire sex. Knowing that in fact not everyone does could bring him some relief and help him put his feelings into words.

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GeorginaDarcy
3 hours ago, Lara Black said:

So, my question to you is: if your husband never changes, can you be happy in this relationship? Is it a healthy relationship for you?

I don't know if I can be happy. I'd hope so? I think the thing is that if -- at any point, including the one I'm at right now -- he managed to say "I'm really overall not interested in sex and don't think I ever will be", that we could have a discussion about what a happy relationship would look like. There's a lot of love in the relationship, and a lot of respect, and both those things have always been clearly communicated. 

 

Because the thing is, that other than this issue -- which is a big one, obviously, or I wouldn't be here, or wouldn't be crying into my whisky -- it IS a healthy relationship. He's an amazing person and he's always been my greatest cheerleader, he's a fantastic dad, and we know we can rely on each other in difficult times. We've navigated poverty, unemployment, chronic illness, abusive parents, and more, and come out a really solid team. Except that I feel like it's a really solid team with my platonic best friend.

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GeorginaDarcy
3 hours ago, Three said:

I It was life changing for me to read about asexuality, and after denying it for several years, took me forever to actually come to terms with it. Springing this on him suddenly is not a good idea, especially if you expect change to come about from it, especially if you expect him to be like, oh your right, I'm asexual, let's share every single sexual detail and communicate how asexual and not liking sex I am, and how unfair this is to you.

Thank you. That's kind of what I'm worried about, in part -- is talking to him about asexuality likely to help or hurt? I myself am bi & nonbinary and finding words for myself was really powerful, but I came to those words on my own. And I found out about ace people from being part of queer communities and spaces; my spouse isn't a part of those spaces in the same way because he's always ID'd as the straight, cis partner of a queer person, and so he does tend to find out about things (like the existence of nonbinary people) from me. 

I don't think it's unfair for him to be asexual, if he is, or unfair for him not to want sex; I don't think I'm entitled to sex. I do think I'm entitled to have a partner who is willing to discuss a serious issue with me in a way that allows for actual solutions, instead of fake solutions based on things that are, clearly, based on 20 years of evidence, simply not true.....

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5 hours ago, GeorginaDarcy said:

he's always ID'd as the straight, cis partner of a queer person

Maybe it helped that my partner had some bi experience, so already didn't identify as straight.... until my gender issues surfaced, he was more queer than I was.

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22 minutes ago, GeorginaDarcy said:

it's a really solid team with my platonic best friend.

... which isn't what most people expect a marriage to be (despite what a lot of AVENites would like to think).

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GeorginaDarcy
3 hours ago, anisotropic said:

Hi @GeorginaDarcy! I would politely disagree with @Telecaster68's take and give my own experience.
 

Thank you for being willing to tell so many details. It's helpful to me to know that people do manage to get through experiences like this and work it out. I will read the blog post you linked and take some time to consider it.

I have a few ace friends, and it's really clear to me from them that asexuality IS an orientation, and it was after discussing stuff with them that I started wondering "wait, is this possibly what is going on with [spouse]?" and then started to learn more about asexuality and read posts here. Because I feel like the options for a relationship that's good for both of us if he's "a straight dude with a low sex drive but who is a sexual person" are different than the options for if he's "an asexual dude". But bringing info to him feels like a huge challenge, even more than coming out to him as bi was, or coming out to him as nonbinary. (possibly because "I need to tell you something about me" is easier than "I think I've figured out something about you that I am 100% certain you really don't want to discuss, but we need to"...) 

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Just now, anisotropic said:

Maybe it helped that my partner had some bi experience, so already didn't identify as straight.... until my gender issues surfaced, he was more queer than I was.

From what you've said, it does sound like your partner engaged throughout a lot more than the OP's (and mine). When you've had years - decades - of promises that aren't so much broken as kicked under the sofa I think trust gets so battered it's very difficult to give any credence to your partner's claims that this time somehow it'll be different, whatever the reason.

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GeorginaDarcy
3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

... which isn't what most people expect a marriage to be (despite what a lot of AVENites would like to think).

I mean! I might have willingly signed up for that! I don't think marriage has to be a monogamous sexual partnership; I've never thought that. I might very well have agreed to marry an ace dude for mutual support and raising kids together.

 

I just. Would have probably negotiated a different set of rules around sex. 20 years on that's a lot harder to break through. 

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1 minute ago, GeorginaDarcy said:

"I need to tell you something about me" is easier than "I think I've figured out something about you that I am 100% certain you really don't want to discuss, but we need to"...

Yeah. My take on this is deeply coloured by my wife's reaction to me saying, tentatively, 'do you think you might be asexual?'. This was after she'd said a bunch of things that might as well be an 'are you asexual?' checklist.

 

She shrugged and said 'maybe', and changed the subject, and resisted any attempts to return to the subject. She's deeply involved with the local LGBT+ community, so she knows what it is. Whether she is or isn't, is almost irrelevant. It was the dismissal that this is an issue in our relationship which was the problem.

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2 minutes ago, GeorginaDarcy said:

I mean! I might have willingly signed up for that! I don't think marriage has to be a monogamous sexual partnership; I've never thought that. I might very well have agreed to marry an ace dude for mutual support and raising kids together.

 

I just. Would have probably negotiated a different set of rules around sex. 20 years on that's a lot harder to break through. 

I think a lot of aces really don't understand that to their sexual partners, they've just unilaterally made about the biggest fundamental change to the relationship that they could, often with no discussion before or after. It's just not a fundamental change to an ace who's okay with having sex, any more than (in my wife's words) 'it's just like we don't go to clubs any more'....

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15 minutes ago, GeorginaDarcy said:

I have a few ace friends, and it's really clear to me from them that asexuality IS an orientation, and it was after discussing stuff with them that I started wondering "wait, is this possibly what is going on with [spouse]?"

Are any of them (also) his friends?  Even listening to them talk might get him thinking,

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9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I think a lot of aces really don't understand that to their sexual partners, they've just unilaterally made about the biggest fundamental change to the relationship that they could, often with no discussion before or after.

One sticking point here - not for your situation specifically, tele - is that it’s not normally made... it’s realized.  The former implies choice and intent.  Especially if it comes as a surprise to the ace partner as well - whether it’s a good surprise or a bad one - they may need to process it for a long time before being able to address how it changes the relationship.

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4 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

One sticking point here - not for your situation specifically, tele - is that it’s not normally made... it’s realized.  The former implies choice and intent.  Especially if it comes as a surprise to the ace partner as well - whether it’s a good surprise or a bad one - they may need to process it for a long time before being able to address how it changes the relationship.

At some point, they're choosing to turn down any initiation from their partner. Their orientation hasn't changed - I agree with you that it's more about people realising it - but they're making a different choice in how they act on it. 

 

I think a lot of aces don't realise it has any impact on the rest of the relationship that they need to assess. I've seen many many posts where aces regard innately understanding it has an impact as mindreading and 'how am I meant to connect never having sex with my partner being pissed off with me all the time'. It really does take an asexual to be blindsided by this connection.

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GeorginaDarcy
14 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Are any of them (also) his friends?  Even listening to them talk might get him thinking,

Sadly, no! They're all my friends from things like writing groups and queer knitting. 

 

(edit: sudden temptation to see if queer knitting is willing to move locations to my house for a while and talk about asexuality loudly. although I bet my spouse would go play video games upstairs if we did.) 

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Anthracite_Impreza

Feel free to ignore a mecha-aro-ace with no experience in romantic relationships, but I think you should bring it up with him. At least then he has the information and can make his own mind up, and it might (immediately or eventually) make him feel more comfortable in himself and thus at talking to you. I like to suggest writing notes as they give people chance to think about things before answering, and will make a change from verbal communication for you both.

 

I take my non-existent hat off to you for being so patient with him.

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And what about a discussions brought up at queer knitting such as snow boarding, yard sales, and asexuality?

 

Lucinda

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GeorginaDarcy
8 minutes ago, Lucinda said:

And what about a discussions brought up at queer knitting such as snow boarding, yard sales, and asexuality?

 

queer knitting has the best conversations, i have to say! though admittedly as we are in the US it's been a bit heavy on things like Terrifying Descents Into Fascism I Have Known lately, less on the fun stuff (fun stuff includes hiking, restaurants, which usa women's hockey team players we think are dating, etc.) 

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GeorginaDarcy
36 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I think a lot of aces don't realise it has any impact on the rest of the relationship that they need to assess. I've seen many many posts where aces regard innately understanding it has an impact as mindreading and 'how am I meant to connect never having sex with my partner being pissed off with me all the time'. It really does take an asexual to be blindsided by this connection.

I guess I see what you're saying and why that contributes to difficulties. I do feel like he has a very poor grasp on why this is, and has remained, SUCH a big issue for me. Why I keep trying to talk about it, why it's come up in therapy so much. His incredibly poor grasp of it is part of what made me start to wonder if he was asexual, after talking to ace friends and having them explain their orientation (for which I'm grateful! I like knowing more about the range of human experience). My impression was that if he was a sexual person, he'd have a better idea of WHY it was an issue, EVEN IF he didn't have a hugely strong sex drive.

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And what about  discussions brought up at queer knitting such as restaurants, hiking, and asexuality?  Do you ever mention to him what the group talks about??

 

If you live in the San Francisco Bay area, you may have gone tramping with our resident "hykenut" named Cathy (cdrdash).... now that would be a small world!

 

Lucinda

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Guest DesertWells

You say your husband shuts down when you bring up the subject. What happens if you continue the subject?

Do he start getting upset/angry, or does he go hide (in his shed, for example)?

 

You've been going through this for 20 years, so I’m sure you’ve escalated the issue with him like this on plenty of occasions, but it may be the only option, to go above and beyond what you have done before.

 

Helping him define his sexuality may help him, but it may not help you in this scenario.

Someone who defines themselves by their conflict, will often prefer to use labels to validate - rather than resolve - their conflict. You know your husband, and whether that describes him, and if it doesn’t; defining his sexuality may be ‘a way in’.

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1 hour ago, GeorginaDarcy said:

Sadly, no! They're all my friends from things like writing groups and queer knitting. 

 

(edit: sudden temptation to see if queer knitting is willing to move locations to my house for a while and talk about asexuality loudly. although I bet my spouse would go play video games upstairs if we did.) 

What's queer knitting?

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GeorginaDarcy
25 minutes ago, Lucinda said:

And what about  discussions brought up at queer knitting such as restaurants, hiking, and asexuality?  Do you ever mention to him what the group talks about??

 

If you live in the San Francisco Bay area, you may have gone tramping with our resident "hykenut" named Cathy (cdrdash).... now that would be a small world!

 

Lucinda

I am not, although I have friends who are. :)

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GeorginaDarcy
24 minutes ago, DesertWells said:

You say your husband shuts down when you bring up the subject. What happens if you continue the subject?

Do he start getting upset/angry, or does he go hide (in his shed, for example)?

He stops responding, mostly, and goes into broken-record mode, just repeating over and over that he doesn't know and doesn't want to talk about it. I tend not to try to pressure people too much in situations like that -- I know that when *I* get pressured in those situations, it doesn't go well and is very unpleasant, so I prefer not to do it to others.

 

I think I'm going to go the "casual mentions" route for a bit before trying to have another conversation. I think there are some natural ways I can bring asexual people up in a group chat we have with a bunch of friends. 

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1 hour ago, GeorginaDarcy said:

(edit: sudden temptation to see if queer knitting is willing to move locations to my house for a while and talk about asexuality loudly. although I bet my spouse would go play video games upstairs if we did.) 

Hah, I was thinking almost exactly that.  :)

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