Can asexuality be a choice?

[nanogretchen4]

Bahalia, you can absolutely choose celibacy. From what you say it sounds like you are able to minimize your libido and believe you could be content to be celibate. If so, there is no reason you should not do so. Since you say you want friendships and increased spirituality, joining a celibate religious community might be something to consider. Alternatively you could just immerse yourself in volunteerism, education, creative projects, and/or spiritual pursuits until you find a combination of activities that make your life feel full and meaningful. In the course of all this you will probably make a lot of friends. I'm not asexual and I didn't set out to be celibate intentionally, but I've been single for a long time and I have no real interest in dating. I've been following the strategy of getting very busy with meaningful activities and it has been working very well for me.

[cupid69]

1 hour ago, Tunes said:

Did you try breaking up with her and having sex with someone else instead? If not, then you made the choice to stay in a relationship that does not include sex. That is how it is your decision.

 

And it was your choice to stay associated. She cannot force you to remain in the relationship; you can leave at any time.

 

And because you place more importance on these other factors, you made the decision to stay. I didn't say that you like being celibate or that you want celibacy or that your situation doesn't suck. I'm sure it does. But you still chose that over the alternative. You are not just a passive victim and she doesn't deserve to have all the responsibility of your unhappiness at your lack of sex to be tossed onto her like you had nothing to do with it. If I chose to have sex with a partner because THEY refused to be in a relationship without it, even though I hate it, I would not blame THEM for the 'fact' that I HAVE to have sex. That's just playing the victim and avoiding responsibility. I would still be deciding, for whatever reason, that preserving the relationship is more important than avoiding sex. Likewise, regardless of why you made the choice to stay, you still made the choice. As tough a choice as it happens to be, it is still a choice. 

 

She does. And I accept this and stay with her anyway because our relationship is more important to me than the type of love that I crave. And it sucks. And it is still my choice. Entirely. 

Never entered my head to stray.

 

I think your answer is probably typical of an asexual as you are not in the position of a sexual. I accept that. It's a shame there are not more sexuals voicing their opinions on this website however. It may be that they cannot cope with the difficult decision to stay in a sexless relationship and just leave.

I'm one of a few people who have stuck it out.

[nanogretchen4]

While this discussion is almost entirely unrelated to the subject of the thread, perhaps all of this relationship misery will make the OP's embrace of a celibate lifestyle seem like an attractive choice.

[Tunes]

42 minutes ago, Apostle said:

Never entered my head to stray.

 

I think your answer is probably typical of an asexual as you are not in the position of a sexual. I accept that. It's a shame there are not more sexuals voicing their opinions on this website however. It may be that they cannot cope with the difficult decision to stay in a sexless relationship and just leave.

I'm one of a few people who have stuck it out.

No; just a romance-less relationship. I am a romantic who is constantly reminded that my partner loves me the same way she loves her brother (and that this is meant as the utmost compliment). If I want to make out with her, that’s too bad, because she will visibly cringe half the time I do so much as give her a peck on the lips. Marriage is absolutely out of the question. The most romantic thing I get to do with her is cuddle, meanwhile she also forms cuddle piles with her other friends as well, as I seem to be the only one who views this as a romantic gesture. 

 

So, please; tell me again that I’m just not really lacking anything important to me. Tell me again that your sex drive means more than anything an asexual could possibly miss out on and makes you some special exception. Say whatever you want to try to convince yourself that you are nothing but a victim and place all the blame on that horrendous partner of yours that would dare to deny you something you want to have in a relationship so that you can avoid taking any responsibility for any struggle you might have to face in the relationship. It won’t change the fact that you do have a choice and you did choose to stay with her. For love? For kids? Both worthy reasons that you should be proud of having made. And no one said you had to like being celibate or that it can’t be a difficulty that you deal with for the sake of the relationship. But you should still take some responsibility in life instead of shoving things you don’t like onto your partner so you can play the victim. 

[cupid69]

1 hour ago, Tunes said:

No; just a romance-less relationship. I am a romantic who is constantly reminded that my partner loves me the same way she loves her brother (and that this is meant as the utmost compliment). If I want to make out with her, that’s too bad, because she will visibly cringe half the time I do so much as give her a peck on the lips. Marriage is absolutely out of the question. The most romantic thing I get to do with her is cuddle, meanwhile she also forms cuddle piles with her other friends as well, as I seem to be the only one who views this as a romantic gesture. 

 

So, please; tell me again that I’m just not really lacking anything important to me. Tell me again that your sex drive means more than anything an asexual could possibly miss out on and makes you some special exception. Say whatever you want to try to convince yourself that you are nothing but a victim and place all the blame on that horrendous partner of yours that would dare to deny you something you want to have in a relationship so that you can avoid taking any responsibility for any struggle you might have to face in the relationship. It won’t change the fact that you do have a choice and you did choose to stay with her. For love? For kids? Both worthy reasons that you should be proud of having made. And no one said you had to like being celibate or that it can’t be a difficulty that you deal with for the sake of the relationship. But you should still take some responsibility in life instead of shoving things you don’t like onto your partner so you can play the victim. 

I think you misunderstand what I have said. I have never said that I blame my SO for who she is. I never said that I am a special exception or that I am a victim. Romance is a word like love is, in other words covers a whole host of emotions but nothing in particular. You can love your mum in a different way to your partner for example.

You're lucky you can get a cuddle. I can't because it may give out the wrong signals.

The issue here is that for sexuals, sex is a very important part of a relationship, a cementing of the soul and body, if you like. Many asexuals cannot understand that. Some make an effort for their sexual partners but if the biology is just not there then how can an asexual understand?

 

The one issue I do have however is that I wished my SO had told me who she really was. The trouble is that there is no answer to that as she may not have known who she was when we met. 

 

 

[TheAP]

Please keep this thread on topic.

 

TheAP

Questions about Asexuality mod

[Tunes]

Right, back to the point then, unless someone has chained you up in their basement or something and denied you all possibility of interacting with anyone in the outside world, celibacy is a choice, whereas asexuality is not, because asexuality is an innate interest, not an action (or lack of action). But there are plenty of reasons one might choose celibacy, even if they are not asexual - spirituality and introspection even being some of the most popular reasons - and if that’s something that you think would improve your situation in life, there is absolutely no reason that you can’t make that choice. You can very well live a fulfilling life without romantic or sexual relationships, if you so choose. Value is where we place it.  

[Sally]

14 hours ago, Apostle said:

If your partner denied you the love that you craved, would it be your decision to accept this as part of your relationship or would it be wholly hers?

Yours.  There's  no way anyone can look at what you say above and not recognize that YOU chose to accept this as part of your relationship.  

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Apostle said:

I disagree. Celibacy is not always a choice. My SO made that choice not to have a sexual relationship with me, not me. I stayed with her for different reasons. Celibacy was a bi-product of HER choice.

Celibacy isn't a choice when someone is literally physically unable to have sex due to severe injury or illness, but we are talking about the difference between asexuality and merely not having sex for whatever reason. You can choose to not have sex OR you can be forced into not having sex (though your example is not an example of being forced as far as I am concerned) but the difference is that asexuality is just who you are. It's not something that you can choose or that can be forced on you by circumstance, only celibacy can be chosen or (in some circumstances) literally forced on a person against their will.

 

I believe this is still technically on topic because we are discussing the difference between celibacy and asexuality and whether or not they are choice. Maybe if the mod thinks this is off topic they could split the thread and put this part of the convo into Hot Box or something?

 

[Tunes]

9 minutes ago, FictoCannibal. said:

Celibacy isn't a choice when someone is literally physically unable to have sex due to severe injury or illness

Yes - a better example than my locked in someone's basement analogy! XD 

 

10 minutes ago, FictoCannibal. said:

you can be forced into not having sex (though your example is not an example of being forced as far as I am concerned)

Yeah, definitely not forced. Pressured, maybe? But I mean, I couldn't even call it forceful enough to say it's coercion (since a strong desire to avoid natural consequences is drastically different from a direct threat), much less forced. Unless the SO in question has mind control abilities - then it could fall into some really gray areas...

[Guest]

13 hours ago, Tunes said:

Yeah, definitely not forced. Pressured, maybe? But I mean, I couldn't even call it forceful enough to say it's coercion (since a strong desire to avoid natural consequences is drastically different from a direct threat), much less forced. Unless the SO in question has mind control abilities - then it could fall into some really gray areas...

Agreed.

 

Warning: This next part may be triggering for some as it deals with abuse

 

I stayed with my ex for 5 years even though I had to give him sex twice a day every day, usually around 40 minutes every time, just to try to keep the peace. I HATED the sex and it hurt me so incredibly badly that I often couldn't even walk after unless I took painkillers, my life was constant physical agony. I knew if I didn't give him sex he'd be angry and I was afraid he may leave me so just did it because I felt there was no other choice. He was a lot older than me (14 years), was my first boyfriend so I had no experience with how someone should be treated in a relationship, and he had managed to break my mind down enough (through mental and physical abuse) that I truly believed I couldn't survive without him. HOWEVER, the sex was not rape (it was not forced sex) because I still made the CHOICE to stay, I could have left at any point if I'd tried. This is the same as what is happening in @Apostle's example just on the opposite side of the fence. It's not forced unless you're literally being held at gunpoint or chained to the wall or something.

 

That's my perspective on it anyway as someone who has been on the opposite side of the fence. 

[Tunes]

@FictoCannibal. I am so sorry you had to go through that! Forced or not, it must have been so traumatizing.  and hugs if wanted.

[cupid69]

On 10/27/2018 at 7:29 AM, FictoCannibal. said:

Agreed.

 

Warning: This next part may be triggering for some as it deals with abuse

 

I stayed with my ex for 5 years even though I had to give him sex twice a day every day, usually around 40 minutes every time, just to try to keep the peace. I HATED the sex and it hurt me so incredibly badly that I often couldn't even walk after unless I took painkillers, my life was constant physical agony. I knew if I didn't give him sex he'd be angry and I was afraid he may leave me so just did it because I felt there was no other choice. He was a lot older than me (14 years), was my first boyfriend so I had no experience with how someone should be treated in a relationship, and he had managed to break my mind down enough (through mental and physical abuse) that I truly believed I couldn't survive without him. HOWEVER, the sex was not rape (it was not forced sex) because I still made the CHOICE to stay, I could have left at any point if I'd tried. This is the same as what is happening in @Apostle's example just on the opposite side of the fence. It's not forced unless you're literally being held at gunpoint or chained to the wall or something.

 

That's my perspective on it anyway as someone who has been on the opposite side of the fence. 

If you were physically forced to have sex with him and suffered physically I'm really perplexed as to why you stayed with him for 5 YEARS!

I would have left after a day! 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Apostle said:

If you were physically forced to have sex with him and suffered physically I'm really perplexed as to why you stayed with him for 5 YEARS!

I would have left after a day! 

1) that's extremely common in abusive relationships. It's a form of Stockholm's syndrome. I was also only 18 when we met (he was 32) and deeply mentally unwell, hence very easily manipulated.

 

2) the point was that you're not literally being forced into sex (or celibacy) IF you could leave at any time to end the behaviour.

 

3) if you literally believe you're being FORCED into celibacy, I'd ask the same thing. Why on earth would you stay with someone you truly believe is FORCING you into something that's making you deeply miserable, regardless of whether or not you like the rest of the relationship? FORCING someone into something that makes them deeply unhappy, which makes them suffer, is just cruel. So either you're well aware that you're choosing to live this way (which takes some of the blame off you're partner) or you're no different from young, naive me, staying despite your unhappiness and pain. 

 

 

 

[Tunes]

38 minutes ago, Apostle said:

If you were physically forced to have sex with him and suffered physically I'm really perplexed as to why you stayed with him for 5 YEARS!

I would have left after a day! 

No, apparently you wouldn't. If you were in the exact same circumstances, you would have done the exact same thing.

 

See, if you were in the same circumstances, you would also have the same personality and world outlook - otherwise the circumstances are no longer the same. Our raising and/or genetics determine how we view the world around us, what we know and don't know, and how we respond to the situations placed in front of us. Our personality and responses are very much a part of our circumstances.

 

So if you were in the same circumstance, you would have been afraid to lose this person. You might have wondered how you would ever survive if you didn't have them - not only emotionally, but physically. You would have worried that if you left and things fell apart, this person might not accept you back when you failed on your own. You might have viewed the sex as an expected part of any relationship - no matter who you were with, they would expect sex just as often and it would hurt just as much; this is just how sex works. You might have been afraid that this person would become even more violent with you if you threatened to leave, or that this person might be so upset by your threat that they might hurt/kill themselves and that would be YOUR fault. There could be infinite reasons that you would have stayed for 5 years before getting desperate enough to try to leave. 

 

And if I were in your circumstance, I would refuse to take responsibility for my choice to stay with my SO until I learned that taking responsibility for the few choices that I do get to make in life is the only way to have any real control over my life. And I wouldn't realize (yet) that it's the exact thing that I am denying - my choice in the matter, my choice to value something else over my own sexual comfort - that makes me such a wonderful person. And who knows how long it would take me to realize this. And if you were in my circumstance, you would read my comment and think back on all the time you spent coming to this exact conclusion yourself and how much it would hurt your partner if you still thought like that. Then you would realize how much the fact that I think that way could potentially hurt my partner, and you would feel bad for her. You would speak up, in an attempt to make me realize my mistake and prevent the harm to myself and, even more importantly, my SO. You would realize that no amount of talking could make me learn something that I was not mentally prepared to learn, just like no amount of my talking could make you learn something that you were not mentally prepared to learn, no matter how good of advice it may be. But you would want to try anyway, because you wouldn't be able to think of anything else to do. 

 

...And get off on a philosophical tangent... apparently... And I'm not even sure what my original point was anymore... But anyway, I hope my rant held something meaningful or insightful. But I'm at work right now and need to get my butt moving, so I don't have time to read over it and make sure anything I said makes sense or relates to anything. So have a nice day, everyone!  

[Guest]

@Apostle

 

For me now, if one aspect of my relationship was causing me deep unhappiness and suffering I would leave regardless of how good the rest of the relationship was. I wouldn't want my partner to have to live with someone who suffered as a direct result of an aspect who my partner is and it would be the same if I wanted sex and it was them who did not want it. I would prefer us to just be friends so we can enjoy our connection without the stress  and pain of sexual disparity.

 

It's all very well and good for you to say 'Well I would have left after a day!!' but you yourself are making a decision similar to the one I made over a decade ago now (to stay despite suffering) and it's very easy to look at someone else's situation and say 'I'd never do that'. It's harder to take an honest look at our own situation and say the same thing, unfortunately, which is how some people end up suffering for so long.

 

[Tunes]

That’s true. I may have been looking at this the wrong way.

 

I think that staying because you value something more than your own desires/interests is a beautiful thing and makes you a wonderful person, and I take pride in the fact that I am like this with my partner *because* I admire it so much when I see others do it. It’s something that I see as beautiful. But on the other hand, there is a reason most people don’t do that, and I don’t look down on them for it, because it makes sense. Overcoming difficult things for something more valuable, more worthwhile in the long run is wonderful. But maybe it’s not a lack of responsibility that drives your need to claim that you had no choice; maybe you are just so miserable that having a martyr mentality is the only way to push yourself through it. But if that’s the case, then your situation is very different from mine and much closer to FictoCannibal. See, while there is a lot that I wish I had in my relationship that I will never get and as much as I complain because it gets to me sometimes, I am ultimately happy where I am. Our relationship makes me happy, so it’s something that I’m not willing to lose; it’s something that I am willing to work for, so taking responsibility is just a matter of maturity for me. I also accept that I will have limits somewhere and it’s possible that somewhere down the line, something could come into play that would make me feel like it wasn’t worthwhile, and if that happens, I might have to end it. But I haven’t reached that point yet and I hope I never do.

 

*I* fight the urge to slip into a martyr mentality from time to time because I don’t feel that I should have to choose between two things that matter so much to me, which makes me feel cheated no matter what I choose, so I feel emotionally trapped: and I fight it because I know that it’s an immature way of viewing things, takes away my control of my own life, and is frankly insulting to my partner who is also making compromises for the relationship in my favor (as hard as that can be for me to remember, sometimes), because she also finds the relationship rewarding enough to work for. So a martyr mentality, in my case, is just immature, not a defense mechanism. And I assumed you were doing the same. But if you are so miserable overall that you have to fall on a martyr mentality as a defense mechanism just to push through, you might be past the point of “too much”, and it might be better if you don’t stay. I mean, talk to her about it first: tell her that you can’t do it and see if there is a compromise you would both be comfortable with first, but if you can’t find common ground, you might need to end it. I can’t say; I’m not you. But I’ll add that if it’s just for the sake of the kid (you otherwise wouldn’t stick around), then you should end the relationship - for the kid’s sake as well. The more miserable you are, the more bitter you will become toward your SO, and the harder it will be to hide that from the kid. Kids are very sensitive to unspoken auras. And divorce can actually be good for a kid if it keeps the parents both in their life and getting along on better terms. Again, I don’t know if this is your situation or not; I just wanted to throw it out there just in case. 

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Tunes said:

See, while there is a lot that I wish I had in my relationship that I will never get and as much as I complain because it gets to me sometimes, I am ultimately happy where I am. Our relationship makes me happy, so it’s something that I’m not willing to lose; it’s something that I am willing to work for, so taking responsibility is just a matter of maturity for me

Yes I think there's a difference between being overall happy and going without some things to keep that happiness (which is what many people do) and remaining in a relationship that makes you utterly miserable, 'ruining a sexuals life' was a term used on the previous page. If something about one's partner causes one actual literal suffering just through them being who they are then I don't think it would be fair on either person to stay in the relationship. Even when kids with special needs are involved (like in Apostle's case) you could still continue to live together as friends, actively supporting the children, while seeking your own intimate relationships out of the house (though this would require maturity on the part of both parties). I'm not talking about an open relationship, but about two friends who live together to raise children they both created who have bfs/gfs/whatever outside of their friendship.

 

I don't have a relationship right now, and refuse to get into one with someone I'm not 100% sexually compatible with, so this probably won't ever be an issue I'll experience again. Being a martyr was definitely part of why I stayed with my ex for so long. I knew I was suffering but it just didn't seem to matter as long as he was happy. I didn't get out until I was pregnant with our second child, it was for the kids that I left. If it wasn't for them I'd probably still be with him because I had a dogged sense of loyalty that meant no matter what happened, I'd stay. I'm still loyal of course, but I'd never allow myself to suffer for the sake of another adult human again, especially not now that I have children I have to raise healthily and happily!  

 

 

 

 

[The Dryad]

While sexuality can be fluid or stable depending on the person, although sexuality is usually stable (it doesn't change) sexuality itself isn't a choice, rather your sexual behavior is a choice. The way that your sexuality manifests or doesn't manifest can't be controlled but your response is your choice. Libido isn't exactly telling of your sexuality itself, but rather stimulus and hormones (like gay people who have one night stands with women, just because) but how you react is your choice. Celibacy is a choice but asexuality is not.

[Tunes]

2 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

you could still continue to live together as friends, actively supporting the children, while seeking your own intimate relationships out of the house

I had an aunt who did this. I grew up calling her friend my uncle, never even realizing that they weren’t married until I was in my preteen years, when I was introduced to my aunt’s new husband. The following conversation went something like,

“Wait, when did she divorce my uncle?” 

“She wasn’t married.”

”But what about my uncle?”

”He’s not your uncle.” 

“What about my cousins?”

”They are your cousins and he is their father, but he is not your uncle. He’s not related to you by blood or marriage.”

”Then why did he live with my aunt?”

”To help with your cousins.”

”... Oh... So uncle [name] hasn’t actually been my uncle this whole time?”

”No.”

”Why didn’t anyone tell me?”

”Because it didn’t really matter. He was essentially your uncle, as far as your relationship with him was concerned, so there was no need to make a big deal out of it.”

”...Oh.”

I was way more shocked by the fact that he *technically* didn’t count as my uncle (because this seemed ridiculous since he was my cousins’ father) than the fact that they lived together but weren’t married. And I didn’t support her new marriage because the guy was a total dick. But until I realized that, I was totally on board. And to this day I still think of that friend as my uncle, because he acted like an uncle all my life and, quite frankly, turned out to be way more mature than my aunt or her husband. Not that the last part matters now, I guess. 

 

3 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

refuse to get into one with someone I'm not 100% sexually compatible with, 

With my level of repulsion, I don’t think I’d be capable of having a sexual relationship, even if I wanted to. Like asexuality, you can’t really choose whether or not you are going to have a panic attack...

 

4 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

that meant no matter what happened, I'd stay

Unfortunately, it’s a similar reason that I am still with my partner. Don’t get me wrong - we are both satisfied with what we have. And the reason I am not leaving NOW is because I value the quality of the love more than the form that love takes. But that wasn’t the reason I initially chose to give up having a romantic relationship. My problem was that (I realized this during one of the times when we weren’t certain we could find a sufficient compromise) I was so obsessively attached that if I couldn’t have an exclusive relationship with her, in some form, I would literally rather kill myself than try to find happiness without her. Did my best to hide that fact from her of course - at least until she decided what she wanted to do. The situation was hard enough on us both already; I didn’t want to risk making her feel too cornered. After all, this was *my* problem, not hers; I didn’t want her to feel responsible for me in that way. We did find a compromise. I did tell her about this problem. I was lucky that the person I became addicted to was healthy and sane and willing to help me solve my problem with love and support rather than cause more problems by using it against me. Tbh, I’m still working on this problem, but my partner and I agreed that, while we would stay together as long as we were both satisfied with the relationship, we would not take it for granted or move further until I was emotionally stable enough to make that kind of decision responsibly and for the right reasons. I’m still not sure I could leave her if things got too hard, but I know what types of things I *should* leave over, where I *should* draw those lines, and when I think about the fact that I feel this way, instead of bitterness and helplessness at my situation, I am starting to feel sad, because I am able to acknowledge how much I’m limiting myself by making my potential for happiness solely dependent on the decisions of someone else. I feel bad for myself, like I would feel bad if it were someone else. So it’s progress; I’ll get there. Even though I’m pretty certain by this point that I will be just fine and would make this same choice even once I’m past my problem, I’m sticking with our original agreement because you can convince yourself to do some crazy things when you have attachments that are that unhealthy and it’s better to know now if I can handle it long term than to find out that I can’t later. 

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Tunes said:

With my level of repulsion, I don’t think I’d be capable of having a sexual relationship, even if I wanted to. Like asexuality, you can’t really choose whether or not you are going to have a panic attack...

What I mean when I say 100% sexual compatibility is that you work perfectly together sexually, even if that means you're both repulsed by sex and want nothing to do with it!! I'm not going to be compatible with a repulsed person, however I also have very, very specific requirements for me to be able to desire sexual intimacy, and can only desire it in certain very specific ways that don't involve my own genitals, and can only want it if the other person is 100% happy to never have it.. haha. So I have all these requirements that need to be met, and I refuse to be with someone unless we are literally 100% compatible on all those fronts. For you if you were single and looking for a partner, your 'requirement' for 100% sexual compatibility would probably be something like: Repulsed by sexual intimacy but still actively desires a healthy, happy romantic relationship where we support each other in our own individual goals and ambitions and give each other love, comfort, and advice.. just no sexytimes please, and no expectation of sexytimes. Or something like that. :3 

 

43 minutes ago, Tunes said:

My problem was that (I realized this during one of the times when we weren’t certain we could find a sufficient compromise) I was so obsessively attached that if I couldn’t have an exclusive relationship with her, in some form, I would literally rather kill myself than try to find happiness without her.

Trigger Warning for some: Discussion of suicidal thoughts/desires.

 

This might be too personal so you don't have to answer, but have you been diagnosed with BPD by any chance? I have BPD (though I've healed from a lot of it now) and that's one of the reasons I was so easily manipulated by my ex when he met me. In those days I would develop such strong attachments that I would prefer literal agonizing suffering than losing that person - he would even lock me out of the house to have sex with other women while I waited outside, even though I was the one who paid the rent and the bills (and that's tame compared to some of the stuff he did). But I would rather have that suffering and humiliation than not have him, and if I had to give him up I was sure I would have just chosen to die instead, I was already self harming pretty much consistently to try to deal with the emotions I was having inside and suicide (which I'd already tried a few times by that point) seemed like the only solution to being separated from him if it came to that. I'm certainly not saying your relationship is abusive or anything like that, I am just trying say that I had that same feeling where I would rather literal death than be separated from that person and that's one of the reasons I was diagnosed with BPD.

 

47 minutes ago, Tunes said:

I was lucky that the person I became addicted to was healthy and sane and willing to help me solve my problem with love and support rather than cause more problems by using it against me.

Yes that's one very fortunate thing. My ex was sadly the opposite of your partner so used it against me in all the ways it's possible to use someone's mental illness to control them Y_Y I'm so glad your partner is at least understanding and willing to try to help you, that is a blessing despite the other issues you may be having.

 

49 minutes ago, Tunes said:

 instead of bitterness and helplessness at my situation, I am starting to feel sad, because I am able to acknowledge how much I’m limiting myself by making my potential for happiness solely dependent on the decisions of someone else.

Kids gave me a much better perspective on feeling this way. Imagine if you had your own children and you suddenly know you couldn't allow yourself to continue to feel this way because it's not healthy for children having a mother who isn't truly happy. It's very different when you don't have kids though, because you feel like you'd be giving up or admitting defeat or something if you tried to end it - no matter how unhappy you become. That's how it was for me anyway. And he wasn't so bad with our first baby, he'd calmed down quite a bit by that point. Stuff didn't get bad again until the second pregnancy and I realized I was so unhappy I could never be a good parent to the kids unless I got out (I'd just like to throw in here that I actually didn't want to have kids with him. I was on the pill for both pregnancies but I guess he just wanted sex so often that by body couldn't fight all the pregnancies even with the help of the pill. sigh). But yeah I understand how difficult it can be when there aren't other people relying on you to be 100% happy and content. When it's only you, it seems like a worthy sacrifice to make for the sake of being with that person.

 

56 minutes ago, Tunes said:

So it’s progress; I’ll get there. Even though I’m pretty certain by this point that I will be just fine and would make this same choice even once I’m past my problem, I’m sticking with our original agreement because you can convince yourself to do some crazy things when you have attachments that are that unhealthy and it’s better to know now if I can handle it long term than to find out that I can’t later. 

That's one way to look at it, for sure. I just hope you don't get to that point somewhere down the road and realize you're far more unhappy as a result of staying so long than you would be if you'd tried to cut those ties and start a new life with the potential of finding someone who can love you back in the way you truly desire. We can never know until we get to that point though, and we don't know if we ever will, which makes it all the more difficult to know what to do Y_Y

[Tunes]

7 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

Repulsed by sexual intimacy but still actively desires a healthy, happy romantic relationship where we support each other in our own individual goals and ambitions and give each other love, comfort, and advice.. just no sexytimes please, and no expectation of sexytimes. Or something like that. :3 

Yes, precisely! XD

 

7 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

have you been diagnosed with BPD by any chance?

No; and I've also never felt that way about anyone else I've ever known. I think it has more to do with dependency: she was the first sane, healthy person that I ever met, she was the one supporting me through getting out on my own and into a healthier life myself, and most of what I know about being a healthy, functioning adult human I learned from her. I was a mess when she met me, but she was determined that anyone could be helped and made better and I had good intentions and cared about people, even if I didn't show it correctly in the way I behaved (none of my family did). She had hope for me, which was more than anyone else up to that point. I came to rely on her too much and I think that's why I ended up getting so attached. For a long time, I didn't have anyone else.

 

7 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

I'm so glad your partner is at least understanding and willing to try to help you, that is a blessing despite the other issues you may be having.

She is a blessing, in many ways. Probably part of the reason I'm so overly attached, I think.  But knowing is half the battle, right?

 

7 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

I just hope you don't get to that point somewhere down the road and realize you're far more unhappy as a result of staying so long than you would be if you'd tried to cut those ties and start a new life with the potential of finding someone who can love you back in the way you truly desire.

That won't happen - or at least I won't regret it if it does. I'm pretty resilient against regret. I got that way from trying to figure out how to stop kicking my past self for every little mistake I ever made. The way I look at the past is to remind myself that I didn't know better. It can be unfortunate that I "wasted so much time" while figuring something out or I made the wrong choice, but hindsight is 20/20 - at the time, the alternative was a very real possibility. So even if I do feel that the time was "wasted", I won't really regret it, because I could very well have chosen to leave and regretted it based on what I knew then. If that's how long it took to get it figured out, then that's how long it took - I can't do anything different, because I don't know the future, so there is nothing to regret. Unfortunate things happen in life, but being stuck in an unfortunate situation for longer than you would like is very different from trapping yourself. The moment I started trying to free myself, I was no longer trapping myself; it became a circumstance that I was trying to overcome at that point. And however long it takes to overcome it is how long it takes, and I couldn't have started sooner because I didn't have the information or mental capacity to make the decision to start sooner - or else I would have. So as long as I consistently handle my present in the best way that I am capable based on who I am and how I think and what I know, then I can never look back on it and regret. Based on the circumstances that I was in, I could not have made better decisions than I did. Which is part of where responsibility and acknowledging all of your choices, however limited they may be, becomes very important. 

[cupid69]

20 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

I don't have a relationship right now, and refuse to get into one with someone I'm not 100% sexually compatible with, so this probably won't ever be an issue I'll experience again.

Well you see this could be impossible! I thought my SO and I WERE initially compatible but it's not turned out that way. I believe many asexuals are either not aware that they are different in any way from sexuals or that they think it is quite normal behaviour to be not particularly interested in a sexual relationship. There is also peer pressure from family and friends and the media to behave sexually. Once in a relationship they may then have the courage to express exactly who they really are, espesially if they become financially independent. 

 

It's very tricky for sexuals nowadays to find a compatible partner for a lifelong relationship as they do not know who their partner is going to change to.

The statistics show that fewer men and women are actually finding partners and this is partly due to the complexity of sexuality today. The risk is enormous for both sexuals and asexuals.

 

So where does that leave us? 

 

In no man's land.

 

I married my SO because I thought we were compatible in many ways. It has not turned out that way sexually. I didn't marry her for sex so that is why our marriage still works. Yes, of course I miss having a closer relationship. I CHOSE to stay because I had young children to bring up and that my SO and I had what I would call a harmonious marriage overall. I DIDN't chose NOT to have a sexual relationship. That choice was made by her asexual definition. The two aspects of choice cannot be rolled into one as has been mentioned in previous posts, mainly I think because asexuals do not have that intimate preference in their DNA, biology or psychology.

 

If more sexuals started posting on this thread then the balance of opinion may change.

[cupid69]

On 10/28/2018 at 1:25 PM, FictoCannibal. said:

@Apostle

 

For me now, if one aspect of my relationship was causing me deep unhappiness and suffering I would leave regardless of how good the rest of the relationship was. I wouldn't want my partner to have to live with someone who suffered as a direct result of an aspect who my partner is and it would be the same if I wanted sex and it was them who did not want it. I would prefer us to just be friends so we can enjoy our connection without the stress  and pain of sexual disparity.

 

It's all very well and good for you to say 'Well I would have left after a day!!' but you yourself are making a decision similar to the one I made over a decade ago now (to stay despite suffering) and it's very easy to look at someone else's situation and say 'I'd never do that'. It's harder to take an honest look at our own situation and say the same thing, unfortunately, which is how some people end up suffering for so long.

 

Well, to be fair I was not an innocent young person with little experience when we met and secondly I was not in an abusive relationship. You cannot compare in any way as our situations were different. I'm not really suffering either, as you put it and neither am I blaming my SO for who she is. It is an unfortunate coming together of two people where, in my case only, she turned out not to be the person I thought I'd married, entirely due to the hidden issue of her sexuality. 

Many asexuals go along with a sexual relationship because of love for the partner. I believe that is what my SO and I are going through.

It doesn't detract from the fact that I am not having a sexual partner though, does it? I'm the one in our marriage that is doing a compromise in that element of our relationship, not her. I could very well have said okay, this is my compromise: no sex means that for the rest of our marriage, you do all the housework. It doesn't work like that though, does it because we cannot cuddle, we cannot kiss intimately, we cannot stroke each other.......... the list goes on and on because what is now missing is the coming together of souls and intimacy.

And because she won't talk about it, there is a void. It's heartbreaking and I can'rt see a way forward.

[Guest]

17 hours ago, Tunes said:

That won't happen - or at least I won't regret it if it does. I'm pretty resilient against regret. I got that way from trying to figure out how to stop kicking my past self for every little mistake I ever made. The way I look at the past is to remind myself that I didn't know better. It can be unfortunate that I "wasted so much time" while figuring something out or I made the wrong choice, but hindsight is 20/20 - at the time, the alternative was a very real possibility. So even if I do feel that the time was "wasted", I won't really regret it, because I could very well have chosen to leave and regretted it based on what I knew then. If that's how long it took to get it figured out, then that's how long it took - I can't do anything different, because I don't know the future, so there is nothing to regret. Unfortunate things happen in life, but being stuck in an unfortunate situation for longer than you would like is very different from trapping yourself. The moment I started trying to free myself, I was no longer trapping myself; it became a circumstance that I was trying to overcome at that point. And however long it takes to overcome it is how long it takes, and I couldn't have started sooner because I didn't have the information or mental capacity to make the decision to start sooner - or else I would have. So as long as I consistently handle my present in the best way that I am capable based on who I am and how I think and what I know, then I can never look back on it and regret. Based on the circumstances that I was in, I could not have made better decisions than I did. Which is part of where responsibility and acknowledging all of your choices, however limited they may be, becomes very important. 

That's a great way to look at it, I'm happy you can have such a mature outlook. I totally wish you the best and hope that it works out wonderfully for you :3

 

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Apostle said:

I was not in an abusive relationship.

I didn't actually register that the relationship was abusive (I'm not saying yours is, just that I didn't think mine was at the time). I didn't even see myself as 'suffering' as a result of his actions. That's why abusers can get away with it for so long in so many cases, they convince the victim that everything that happens is something that the victim caused to happen. I was convinced that everything that happened was my own fault so I was doing it all to myself, and abusers innately know how to target people who will take that mindset. They even convince you to feel guilty and bad about everything they do that hurts you, because they say it hurts them more and they wish they didn't have to do it to you. Then you just feel like a horrible person for causing the abuser so much pain. There is a lot of psychology behind it all but after I finally got out I taught myself everything I need to know to avoid the situation ever happening to me again (it never, ever will).

 

6 hours ago, Apostle said:

I'm not really suffering either

You then go on to say:

 

6 hours ago, Apostle said:

there is a void. It's heartbreaking and I can'rt see a way forward.

 

6 hours ago, Apostle said:

what is now missing is the coming together of souls and intimacy.

and on the previous page you mentioned that being forced into sexlessness 'ruins lives'. I notice this a lot with you, you will say you're not suffering, then talk extensively about the pain and hopelessness you're experiencing as a result of the sexless state of your marriage. When I talk about suffering I'm not referring to your overall relationship, but in direct reference to the pain you keep expressing that you experience as a result of sexlessness, if that makes sense? Like I said in my comment to Tunes, is there any way you and your wife could just be best friends who raise kids together? That way your kids get two functioning parents, but you could seek an intimate partner outside of the home? That wouldn't be an open relationship, because you and your wife would literally just be best friends and not 'intimate partners'. That would take the pressure of your unhappiness of her, and allow you to experience the intimacy you desire, while you both continue to shoulder the responsibility of raising your children?

 

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Apostle said:

Well you see this could be impossible! I thought my SO and I WERE initially compatible but it's not turned out that way. I believe many asexuals are either not aware that they are different in any way from sexuals or that they think it is quite normal behaviour to be not particularly interested in a sexual relationship. There is also peer pressure from family and friends and the media to behave sexually. Once in a relationship they may then have the courage to express exactly who they really are, espesially if they become financially independent. 

Oh I agree about how asexuals end up in sexual relationships by accident or by peer pressure, many aces don't even know they're asexual until they've been in a relationship for a few months and they just can't work out why this this thing that's meant to be so special just doesn't do it for them. Then they get a lot of conflicting and confusing emotions, and may even start actively trying to avoid sex with their partner without knowing why. That's why I'm so big on accurate visibility of asexuality, not this 'asexuals can love sex!' nonsense some people are trying to spout to the general public. That opinion does nothing but harm potential asexuals AND their potential sexual partners.

 

However I myself am a lot older (than I once was I mean) and know exactly what I want (which are things that many heterosexual men dream of in a woman, haha), and I also know exactly what I don't want. I am very vocal and open about all this from the get-go. I also have the advantage of only being able to desire someone sexually once a strong sexless friendship has formed, and once we have developed a bond through hundreds of hours of conversation about what we do and do not desire intimately etc, as well as every other facet of our beings, desires, thoughts etc. My main condition (aside from the fact that I need to be attracted to him emotionally to want sex with him) is that my partner is as happy with me without sex as he is with sex, and that's why basing our relationship on a previously established strong but sexless friendship works for me. I already did meet someone I was 100% sexually compatible with but as he's on the other side of the world we decided to just continue as friends. There are many potential partners out there for me, I'm just very (very, very, very) picky and would prefer to remain celibate forever than be with someone I'm not 100% compatible with (on all levels, not just sexually)

 

11 hours ago, Apostle said:

It's very tricky for sexuals nowadays to find a compatible partner for a lifelong relationship as they do not know who their partner is going to change to.

The statistics show that fewer men and women are actually finding partners and this is partly due to the complexity of sexuality today. The risk is enormous for both sexuals and asexuals.

 

Yes I agree with this, people definitely change over time (especially sexually, due to hormone fluctuations, life stresses, family responsibilities etc). That's why it's important to me personally that a potential partner is just as happy in a sexless friendship with me as he is in a sexual, intimate relationship with me. There are most definitely men like that out there, and the payoff for the type of sex they do get from me is rather rewarding if they're into the things I enjoy 😛 

 

11 hours ago, Apostle said:

If more sexuals started posting on this thread then the balance of opinion may change.

To be honest I'm still not even sure exactly what we're arguing about! I think it started because people were saying asexuality is something innate, whereas celibacy is a choice, and you were saying that celibacy has been forced on you so it's not a choice, right? There are other circumstances of involuntary celibacy, like for example someone who, due to a medical issue or injury, is literally unable to have sex even though they want it. However, all we were trying to say is that asexuality is something innate, it's something you're born with. Whereas celibacy is something you choose (or that can happen to you as a result of external factors) but you're not born with 'innate celibacy', if that makes sense?

 

Maybe it would be more preferable for you if we said 'celibacy is a behavior (not having sex for whatever reason), and asexuality is an innate preference for celibacy? (because really, that's what asexuality is when it comes down to it, lol)

 

11 hours ago, Apostle said:

If more sexuals started posting on this thread then the balance of opinion may change.

I am not asexual, but I've met sexuals on both sides of the fence (who would see your celibacy as a choice because you could leave, and those who would agree with you that its forced). Regardless, the actual term for that is 'involuntary celibacy', which can happen to one as a result of being a sexless marriage that one cannot leave, as a result of not being able to get a sexual partner in the first place, or of course from illness or injury preventing one from having sex. I am sure we are all in agreement though with what we were all originally trying to say (underneath the semantics) that asexuality is something someone is born with: it's an innate lack of a desire to connect sexually with others. Whereas celibacy is a behavior that either sexuals or asexuals can have, but it's not innate. It can happen to one as a result of outside circumstances, or as a result of a choice one actively makes to not have sex, but asexuality is innate and cannot be forced onto someone in the same way celibacy can, nor can asexuality be chosen the way celibacy can. Just like a hetero man can be forced into sex with another man but that doesn't make him homosexual, homosexuality is innate. He's just a man being forced into having sex with another man.

 

I honestly think we're all in agreement, we are just arguing over the semantics of the word 'choice'.   

[Starlit Sky]

 

Quote

But the real truth--and the one lesson this whole book is based on--is that there is only one person responsible for the quality of the life you live.

That person is you.

If you want to be successful, you have to take 100% responsibility for everything that you experience in your life. This includes the level of your achievements, the results you produce, the quality of your relationships, the state of your health and physical fitness, your income, your debts, your feelings--everything!

This is not easy.

In fact, most of us have been conditioned to blame something outside of ourselves for the parts of our live we don't like. We blame our parents, our bosses, our friends, the media, our coworkers, our clients, our spouse, the weather, the economy, our astrological chart, our lack of money--anyone or anything we can pin the blame on. We never want to look at where the real problem is--ourselves.

The Success Principles by Jack Canfield

 

Just some thoughts.

 

Edit for clarity: Obviously this thread is not talking about success, but we have gone in a direction that can arguably be discussing the state of success within a relationship. And no matter how you dissect it, unless someone is either physically forcing you to stay, or you stay out of fear of violence or something like that, you are the one that is responsible. It is your choice. One might not like to hear that, but it's the truth nonetheless.

[Tunes]

6 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

I totally wish you the best and hope that it works out wonderfully for you :3

Thank you!

 

16 hours ago, Apostle said:

CHOSE to stay because I had young children to bring up and that my SO and I had what I would call a harmonious marriage overall. I DIDN't chose NOT to have a sexual relationship.

But you chose to stay while knowing she won't have sex. This means it was not forced on you. You may not have chosen directly to not have sex, but you chose to continue with a relationship that does not include sex. That lack of sex is not forced on you.

 

12 hours ago, Apostle said:

I'm the one in our marriage that is doing a compromise in that element of our relationship, not her. I could very well have said okay, this is my compromise: no sex means that for the rest of our marriage, you do all the housework. It doesn't work like that though, does it because we cannot cuddle, we cannot kiss intimately, we cannot stroke each other.......... the list goes on and on because what is now missing is the coming together of souls and intimacy.

And because she won't talk about it, there is a void. It's heartbreaking and I can'rt see a way forward.

Yeah, the forcing her to do housework because she doesn't want sex makes no sense, but compromise that includes some sort of touch - a minimum contact that will still give you the chance to feel like you have an intimate bond, even if it's not sexual - that seems like the type of compromise often made in these circumstances. Like my partner and I agreeing that the occasional peck on the lips is ok, but no tongue. Yeah, I understand that you still lose intimacy, but she gains a sense of comfort and security, so it's a fair compromise as long as there is enough intimacy for you to consider staying worthwhile. And I understand that she doesn't want touch that you will interpret as potentially sexual, but if you both know it's not going to lead to sex and you have both discussed what types of touch are allowed and what types are not, then whether or not YOU feel sexual shouldn't be a concern, because you know she's not interpreting it that way (so she won't feel misunderstood) and you both know it won't result in a sexual encounter, so as long as she isn't severely uncomfortable with the level of touch, she can also still feel that the relationship is worthwhile also. It doesn't have to be all-or-nothing. But the thing about compromises like that is that communication is a necessity. And compromises are needed to ensure that both partners feel at least minimally satisfied - otherwise we end up with situations like yours where you would honestly be doing both of you a favor if you ended the relationship all together. Not to say that a satisfactory middle ground can always be found, but if it can't, then the relationship needs to end. So considering that, it's worth at least trying to compromise. You need to make sure to push for that communication, and if she refuses to work with you, then your situation is more similar to FictoCannibal's than you want to believe and you should really consider leaving the relationship and working out custody details instead (which ideally would work in the way FictoCannibal mentioned before, as that would minimize damage for the kids, but if you aren't BOTH mature enough to handle that, it would be less damaging to work something else out - either way, conflict between two parents is always worse than two entirely separate parents: as the child of a delayed divorce, trust me on that one!). 

 

6 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

you will say you're not suffering, then talk extensively about the pain and hopelessness you're experiencing as a result of the sexless state of your marriage.

Yeah, while I may feel pain initially when things change (it's perfectly healthy to mourn the loss of something you valued!) I am definitely not hopeless about it. I know that, given time, I will heal and the pain will go away. Because I know that I still have the aspects of the relationship that matter the most to me - so I can overcome everything else. I have to take a few days to mourn and freak out and get over my martyr mentality ("this choice isn't fair!!"). Then I can think clearly enough to weigh the pros and cons and determine if this compromise is something that I think I can be satisfied with or if I would be happier just ending it. And so far, I have felt that it's something worth preserving. So I am very hopeful about the relationship. Hopelessness is a pretty good sign that you are not satisfied with the relationship and you are probably not going to change your mind about that in the future, unless something about the relationship changes. That's when it becomes important for you to understand your limits and start talking it out and compromising. 

 

6 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

That's why I'm so big on accurate visibility of asexuality, not this 'asexuals can love sex!' nonsense some people are trying to spout to the general public. That opinion does nothing but harm potential asexuals AND their potential sexual partners.

But in this case, it's not accuracy that you are going for - just a sense of practicality. Because the fact is, SOME asexuals CAN enjoy sex. This doesn't mean all of them, or even most. But it is accurate. And not being accurate can hurt those who can enjoy sex, as people will start telling them that either they can't enjoy sex and are deluding themselves (thus limiting their options because of how others will view them) or they will be told that if they can enjoy sex, then they are not asexual, which is insulting and a problem that many asexuals already face in other areas as well. It's not nonsense, and as problematic as being accurate can be in some cases, the alternative can be problematic in others.

 

6 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

I honestly think we're all in agreement, we are just arguing over the semantics of the word 'choice'.

Yes.

 

If 'forced celibacy' really includes people in a marriage that it would be extremely inconvenient to leave, then I guess I have a very open definition of 'choice'. But the more you limit your definition of 'choice', the more control of your life you take away from yourself just from your own thought process being too negative. It seems unhealthy to think of choice in such a limited way.  Sure, life can throw some tough choices at you, but that doesn't make it any less of a choice and you still have the power to choose which outcome you prefer (even if that's just choosing the lesser of two evils). I think that should count for something. Otherwise, how would you keep from feeling like the winds of life are just sweeping you away? How can you feel like you have any control of your life if you don't take responsibility for any choice that was difficult to make? That seems so sad...

 

5 hours ago, Starlit Sky said:

Obviously this thread is not talking about success, but we have gone in a direction that can arguably be discussing the state of success within a relationship. And no matter how you dissect it, unless someone is either physically forcing you to stay, or you stay out of fear of violence or something like that, you are the one that is responsible. It is your choice. One might not like to hear that, but it's the truth nonetheless.

This exactly. 

[Guest]

52 minutes ago, Tunes said:

Because the fact is, SOME asexuals CAN enjoy sex.

There is a massive difference between being able to enjoy some of the sensations of partnered sex, and loving partnered sex to the extent you are unhappy without it. Asexuals can sometimes enjoy some of the sensations of sex (even some rape victims have claimed to have had multiple orgasms during an attack. I am NOT comparing sex with an asexual to rape, just trying to illustrate how someone can have pleasurable physical sensations while having sex they don't innately desire for their own pleasure), but an asexual does not actively desire partnered sex solely to experience that pleasure, otherwise they're literally no different from any other sexual person. The inaccurate 'visibility' I was referring to was when people say things like 'Asexuals can love and desire sex just as much as anyone else, they just don't care about appearance!', that kind of nonsense. That's implying that to be sexual, appearance has to be more important than anything else to you, when actually appearance means nothing to some sexual people. I could give many, many examples of the inaccurate things that people who claim asexuals can love sex will often say about 'normal' sexual behavior, but I'm not really interested in getting into it as it's something some people just can't seem to understand or accept (I have no idea why) and I don't want to start a debate!!

 

Sexual attraction = the type of attraction that causes you to desire/actively seek sexual intimacy with another person (for pleasure). That 'draw' to have sex with them may be as a result of love you experience for that person, as a result of shared humor, as a result of love you have for their personality, maybe just because you love sex and they're a willing partner, but if you're actively able to actively desire sexual intimacy with another person specifically for the enjoyment of that shared intimacy, that's an expression of sexual attraction, which is something asexuals do not experience. (by you're I mean the generally you, not you specifically).

 

So:

 

Capable of enjoying the physical sensations of sex under some circumstances? yes, some aces can experience that (though they're few and far between).

 

Loving sex to the extent they're unhappy without it? No. That's not an asexual experience, and that's what I was referring to with the above comment.