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prioritization of sexual compatibility?


ryn2

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5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It's a bit like two really driven, ambitious people - probably there'd be problems, but they both understand how important ambition is to the other, and they'd find a way; if one was less ambitious, they'd have more of a problem with finding a way through.

In my experience this is more about attitudes towards ambition and less about being ambitious.  Partnerships where one is and the other isn’t can be fine if there’s no underlying judgment and instead both see the value in contributing differently.

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Telecaster68
Just now, ryn2 said:

In my experience this is more about attitudes towards ambition and less about being ambitious.  Partnerships where one is and the other isn’t can be fine if there’s no underlying judgment and instead both see the value in contributing differently.

Obviously it's different in that one partner can be ambitious and the other not, and it works, which isn't the case with sex.

 

I'm specifically talking about mutually having an innate, intuitive understanding of why something important's to your partner so you're genuinely happy to work with them, rather than getting frustrated at their ambition.

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1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

Not quite, but I've had flings where the whole friendship bit was way less important than the sex. The other stuff might've developed if those flings had gone on longer, I guess. On the other hand, I wouldn't want to have sex with someone who annoyed the fuck out of me, however hot they were, or however amazing their fellatic technique.

 

If I was looking for a substantive relationship, yes. If it was just a fling, then fancying each other and making each other laugh would be enough.

Okay, that makes more sense to me then.  It sounds like you’re not including “shitty person, awesome sex” or “person who is very unhealthy for me, awesome sex” in your options, which means you’re weighing “great person, awesome sex” against “great person, mediocre sex.”

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Telecaster68
6 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Sorry, can’t multiquote anymore... trying to reconcile this with what I quoted above about not-awesome sex generally meaning one or both of you is/are not that into one another...

 

Do you think your situation was an exception (you were really into one another, but not collectively into sex enough to make that part work) or are you retrospectively thinking you weren’t as into each other as it seemed at the time?

I think both. She wasn't into sex as a bonding, shared, intimate, partnered activity, at all, and didn't see it as important. I also realised that for all practical purposes she has a limited range of emotional intensity (like pleasure/displeasure is on a scale of -3 to +3, where most people's is more like -10 to +10, as an example), which meant she wasn't as into me as I thought. The second one took a lot of figuring out.

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Just now, Telecaster68 said:

I'm specifically talking about mutually having an innate, intuitive understanding of why something important's to your partner so you're genuinely happy to work with them, rather than getting frustrated at their ambition.

Yeah, (I think) that’s what I meant - that the problem isn’t compatible degrees of ambition, it’s not judging less ambitious people as lazy/slackers/immature or more ambitious people as high-strung/shallow/materialistic/etc.

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Telecaster68
3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

 It sounds like you’re not including “shitty person, awesome sex” or “person who is very unhealthy for me, awesome sex” in your options, which means you’re weighing “great person, awesome sex” against “great person, mediocre sex.”

Yep, I guess that's right. I don't think I could have fantastic sex with a shitty person/one who's unhealthy for me. It would always be tinged with the knowledge it was stupid to be doing something that was getting me deeper into a bad relationship. Maybe when I was younger...

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1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

Yep, I guess that's right. I don't think I could have fantastic sex with a shitty person/one who's unhealthy for me. It would always be tinged with the knowledge it was stupid to be doing something that was getting me deeper into a bad relationship. Maybe when I was younger...

Thanks for clarifying!  That casts a lot of our past discussions in a new light.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Yeah, (I think) that’s what I meant - that the problem isn’t compatible degrees of ambition, it’s not judging less ambitious people as lazy/slackers/immature or more ambitious people as high-strung/shallow/materialistic/etc.

The version in my head would be that the if one ambitious partner was emotionally or physically unavailable for work related reasons, the other partner is going to be more understanding if they themselves are ambitious too, and know that probably positions would be swapped sooner or later. Similarly, a partner who's normally into sex but is currently tired is going to be happier accommodating sex if they know sex is a big deal for their partner.

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Telecaster68
3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Thanks for clarifying!  That casts a lot of our past discussions in a new light.

Oh? How so?

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1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

The version in my head would be that the if one ambitious partner was emotionally or physically unavailable for work related reasons, the other partner is going to be more understanding if they themselves are ambitious too, and know that probably positions would be swapped sooner or later.

This has not been my experience but I can certainly see how it could work.

 

It’s likely also true, though, that someone who believes their partner has similar, compatible

sexual intentions would not be as put out by the occasional turn-down as someone who is worried about/frustrated by the overall state of the sexual relationship would be.

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7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Oh? How so?

We’ve had many discussions over time about “how can sex matter more to you than everything else?” and I didn’t realize we were starting from a different baseline... sounds like “everything else” is a given for you, so you’re actually weighing “sex plus everything else” versus “just everything else.”

 

Based on my past experience I’m comparing “sex without everything else” against “everything else without sex.”

 

Those two comparisons are very different.

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Telecaster68
3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

It’s likely also true, though, that someone who believes their partner has similar, compatible

sexual intentions would not be as put out by the occasional turn-down as someone who is worried about/frustrated by the overall state of the sexual relationship would be.

The key part being 'occasional', or even more than occasional, as long as it was clearly down to something specific and temporary, and the lower-libido'd partner was making it clear that in general they were keen on sex, just not at the moment. 

 

This is why sexual/asexual incompatibility is fundamentally different to just different libido levels.

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2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

This is why sexual/asexual incompatibility is fundamentally different to just different libido levels.

Agreed, for someone who values being desired it definitely would be.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

We’ve had many discussions over time about “how can sex matter more to you than everything else?” and I didn’t realize we were starting from a different baseline... sounds like “everything else” is a given for you, so you’re actually weighing “sex plus everything else” versus “just everything else.”

 

Based on my past experience I’m comparing “sex without everything else” against “everything else without sex.”

 

Those two comparisons are very different.

They are. I don't think anyone would get into a relationship which had nothing but sex going for it, would they? Similarly, they probably wouldn't expect a relationship to be 'everything but sex'. It's one of a bunch of 'necessary but not sufficient' elements.

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3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The key part being 'occasional', or even more than occasional, as long as it was clearly down to something specific and temporary, and the lower-libido'd partner was making it clear that in general they were keen on sex, just not at the moment. 

I think (communicating) the bolded part is actually the key bit.

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1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

They are. I don't think anyone would get into a relationship which had nothing but sex going for it, would they? Similarly, they probably wouldn't expect a relationship to be 'everything but sex'. It's one of a bunch of 'necessary but not sufficient' elements.

“Nothing” may be an exaggeration.  It’s probably more of a different/shorter list of necessaries...  or no absolute necessaries and a bunch of relatively-nice-to-haves.

 

@E Kat alluded to it in a post somewhere as well... I think it was up this thread?... about partners who were sexually attracting but not stable, e.g.

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anisotrophic

On "attraction" vs "mediocre sex" -- I think they interrelate for me? When I feel powerful attraction & am comfortable experiencing and expressing it, the sex is more likely to be pretty great, no matter what we're doing.

That second caveat feels like it's been important to me. Being comfortable with a partner who isn't experiencing reciprocal desire has taken a lot of time, patience, communication.

On the other hand, I think that "comfortable" caveat is part of why it's hard for me to imagine intimacy with anyone new. I've also been a bit damaged by the experience, I honestly can't imagine anyone being attracted to me. If I try to think about it, it feels confusing and scary to imagine, so I don't.

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That makes sense, @anisotropic. My partner situation was a bit different (seemed to be forcing himself to try to have sex, almost never initiated, claimed to want it... and we never really communicated about it beyond this really basic level) but after dealing with it so long I’ve totally lost touch with how I feel.

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Telecaster68
1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

 after dealing with it so long I’ve totally lost touch with how I feel.

I think this can happen for both sexuals and asexuals in a mixed relationship. I guess most asexuals rolling up on AVEN have just found themselves again though (or at least are on some kind of path to finding themselves), while sexuals are still in the mire of 'well where does that leave me? am I completely undesirable?'. We might rationally know the answers but after years of having no real idea why our partners don't desire us sexually, and probably a lot of mixed signals, feelings are a different thing entirely.  

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35 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

I think this can happen for both sexuals and asexuals in a mixed relationship. I guess most asexuals rolling up on AVEN have just found themselves again though (or at least are on some kind of path to finding themselves), while sexuals are still in the mire of 'well where does that leave me? am I completely undesirable?'. We might rationally know the answers but after years of having no real idea why our partners don't desire us sexually, and probably a lot of mixed signals, feelings are a different thing entirely.  

In my case (thinking, apparently incorrectly) the bolded part (stupid Apple!!) has left me not sure what I am.  I can’t tell if greysexuality is where I really am or if it’s a story I’ve told myself so long that I’ve come to believe it as reality.

 

So, yeah, agreed with how people could be left pretty confused.  I’m not sure it’s fair to say all the aces just get on with life fine, though... it’s probably more about what the relationship has been like, the personalities involved, who came to the realization there was a problem and what they chose to fix it, etc.

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3 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

I think that if they were, they'd find a way to enjoy sexual stuff their partner wanted even if it wasn't something they were particularly into, because of the thrill of getting your partner off, and the shared sexual experience. Both are intoxicating. If there was something that did hit a hard limit, they'd probably at least give it a try, and if it didn't work out there'd be enough understanding and desire to figure out a compromise, because they both truly appreciate that it's important. 

This paragraph gives me so many squicky feelings...

 

I know lots of people who can't find ways to enjoy sexual stuff their partner wants, even though they adore and desire their partner in ways they do enjoy. And they certainly aren't going to get rid of their hard limits, they are hard limits for a reason... they aren't going to try it for "compromise" just cause they are sexual creatures.

 

It doesn't mean they aren't into their partners just because they have sexual boundaries. <_<

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14 minutes ago, Serran said:

I know lots of people who can't find ways to enjoy sexual stuff their partner wants, even though they adore and desire their partner in ways they do enjoy. And they certainly aren't going to get rid of their hard limits, they are hard limits for a reason... they aren't going to try it for "compromise" just cause they are sexual creatures.

Yeah, I got the sense - perhaps unfairly - reading this that Tele was thinking “hard limits” are things the partner doesn’t think they want to do... as opposed to things they cannot do, or cannot do without risk of sustaining emotional or physical damage.

 

I wouldn’t think most partners would continue to want their loved ones to attempt things that  violate hard limits once they’ve been made aware those limits are there.

 

If it’s a “must have” to one partner and a hard limit item to the other, it’s a dealbreaker.

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Just now, ryn2 said:

Yeah, I got the sense - perhaps unfairly - reading this that Tele was thinking “hard limits” are things the partner doesn’t think they want to do... as opposed to things they cannot do, or cannot do without risk of sustaining emotional or physical damage.

 

I wouldn’t think most partners would continue to want their loved ones to attempt things that   violate a hard limit once they’ve been made aware it’s there.

 

If it’s a must have to one partner and a hard limit item to the other, it’s a dealbreaker.

Mmm. "Doesn't sound pleasant, but maybe I'd try" is a soft limit, not a hard limit. A hard limit is a no, nope, not happening. Like... when one partner hates anal and one loves it and wants it, the one that hates it doesn't have to try it anyway, it's a hard limit, which puts it off limits. 

 

Maybe hard limit means less to a vanilla person, but in my world, a hard limit is a thing to be respected at all times. 

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Just now, Serran said:

Mmm. "Doesn't sound pleasant, but maybe I'd try" is a soft limit, not a hard limit. A hard limit is a no, nope, not happening. Like... when one partner hates anal and one loves it and wants it, the one that hates it doesn't have to try it anyway, it's a hard limit, which puts it off limits. 

 

Maybe hard limit means less to a vanilla person, but in my world, a hard limit is a thing to be respected at all times. 

Yep, exactly.  Disregarding a hard limit is sorry, pal, we’re done.  Wheedling and whining about a known hard limit is also a no-go, although perhaps not as instantly drastic.

 

Anything someone might consider doing/trying because a partner really loves it is a soft limit.

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8 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Sexuals, as you enter into new relationships, how important is sexual compatibility?  I’m not so much talking orientation here; more like, if you start seeing someone new - someone you really like otherwise... easy conversation, similar interests, fun to spend time with, whatever else you look for in a partner - and the sex just isn’t awesome, would you continue the relationship or end it?  Why?

 

I’m looking for personal opinions/past experience, as I’m guessing this may vary from person to person rather than being universally true across all sexuals.

 For me, sexual compatibility is extremely important (vital, actually). Some people like my abusive ex will just bang anything, they only want missionary and oral, and they want it as often as possible. As long as they get with someone vanilla and hypersexual like them then it's going to be easy for the both of them sexually. But I (as many people do!) have very specific emotional and physical needs. If I got with someone and they, like my ex, expect sex as part of the relationship but only like oral and missionary and want it a certain amount of times a day - WE JUST WON'T BE ABLE TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP. Even if my ex wasn't abusive, I would still have suffered endlessly as a result of how he is sexually and it would have been harder to leave him if he wasn't abusive so I'm kind of glad he was a dick to be honest. I feel a lot of guilt if I can't make someone happy so would have kept giving him sex I hated forever if he wasn't a jerk 😕

 

Whereas my most recent partner, who I met on AVEN, was the polar opposite of my ex sexually (and in every other way). He didn't expect sex at all and was 100% happy to be with me without sex, but at the same time he got off on doing anything sexually that I wanted to try :P so suddenly there was no pressure, no expectation, and that made me actively start wanting sex.. I was aroused almost all the time as a result of it!! We were compatible in the things we enjoyed sexually when we did do stuff (extreme fetish), he absolutely did not mind that I can't enjoy vaginal stuff, and neither of us would ever notice if a few days or even a month went by without sex because it was of so little importance to us (whereas I know many people start getting very upset if no sex has happened for ages and the other person doesn't seem to care). 

 

I shouldn't answer for other people but I think sexual compatibility is very important for most people. I mean, you might love penetrative sex but get with someone who literally only likes oral. You might want sex twice a week but get with someone who wants it twice a day. You might be into hardcore fetish (like me, as it turns out) but get with a hypersexual vanilla pansy like my first ex.  If two people are flexible and can compromise happily, that's great!! But I know for me I won't ever compromise sexually again. I won't ever give sex I don't want again, ever. I won't ever suffer the pain of not being able to walk from having penetrative sex again. Fuck all that (no pun intended). If myself and a future partner aren't 100% compatible sexually then I don't want a relationship with them. I just can't ever have sex that I don't want again, and I can't imagine being able to live with knowing the person I love is unhappy because I want less sex than they do 😕

 

 

 

 

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For me sexual compatibility just means not vital - no PiV, preferably no oral. And yeah, some of that is pretty important. I couldn't be with a "fully sexual" person. But, I also enjoy playing, so it's fun if the person is compatible in the ways I like to play, but it's not a needed thing... except, if they aren't into me sexually at all, I would need them to not be into anyone sexually. Being told not interested while they are interested in other people feels like being rejected. Being told not interested at all, that is just them having different interests. 

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In hindsight, I think sexual compatibility is very important.  Its necessary - but of course not sufficient. Unfortunately I didn't recognize this before I was married, so while everything else is great, there is this huge missing part of my life that I now realize is important. 

 

To any young person I would remind them that there are a LOT of potential partners.  Find the right one in ALL the ways that matter to you.

 

In a strange way my wife's occasional interest in sex makes it clear to me how much I'm missing.  Great sex last weekend - and I'm still happy - my whole life just seems brighter. 

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  • 1 month later...
On 10/9/2018 at 4:56 PM, CBC said:

For sure. I mean, I felt the initial "butterflies" and all the normal crush stuff when I first knew my husband, things I'd felt for several other guys too, and I assumed the rest would follow. And he used to say that he thought he might be demisexual, and he's always been sex-positive and willing to do stuff occasionally, so I think on some level I was expecting more from him. Which didn't really happen. And on the rare occasions it seemed that he tried or expressed something sexual-ish that seemed kinda genuine, I found myself disgusted. It really fucked with my head; it made me feel repulsed in the way people would feel grossed out by their parents behaving sexually. Like I remember as a little kid, after some boy on the school bus told me that my parents had to have had sex in order to create me (ok, technically not true, there's IVF and stuff, but still), I went home and asked my mum if it was true. She said yes and launched into a spiel about when a man and woman love each other blah blah blah... and my eyes welled up with tears and I went silent and ran upstairs and wouldn't look either of them in the eye for several days. I was utterly horrified. It went beyond normal "ew, sex is gross" reactions from kids. It felt deeply disturbing, like my mum had told me something really awful, like she'd confessed that she and my dad were terrible people. I felt exactly the same way about my husband's attempts to be sexual with me -- disturbed. Like he was doing something inappropriate for the type of connection we had. I had to almost mentally split him into two people. Whereas there's absolutely no weird disconnect and discrepancy with my female partner. It seems like the most normal thing in the world; the opposite of disturbing. I can't imagine having to split her into two people; if I did, that would be a really bad sign. That extreme repulsion and what I consider to be almost a hostility towards sex are what brought me to AVEN and the concept of asexuality in the first place, 14 long years ago. Believe it or not, once upon a time I probably would've fallen into the anti-sexual category. I was very overt and often outspoken with my disgust at times, and some of my thoughts were in the realm of the stuff I regularly call people out on now and think is entirely unacceptable. (Lol, the outspoken part hasn't changed at least). I've come a long, long way... the 19-year-old who came here was a very different person, sexuality-wise at least. That's why I'm so wary of 13-year-olds declaring their asexuality.

 

So yes. Not the greatest first major relationship experience. Sorry to get off track there. Clearly I have... issues. I'm still not sold on the idea that in some way I'm not a tiny bit bisexual; the feelings for guys can still exist, but I have trouble translating them into reality. I don't know what that stems from, but I won't write off the possibility that it's a mental issue. My husband has said that I seem to respond like someone who's been sexually abused, but I have no reason to believe that's the case. I guess I really don't care at this point; it seems easy enough to just not fuck dudes.

 

(Ok for real, done with the off-track stuff!)

 

 

It's a great message. 

 

For me coming to AVEN and reading AVEN made me understand that I not agree AT ALL with the idea of "asexuality" and how "sex" is represented in this web. Not that I mean that asexuality doesn't exist but to me is obvious that here are too many users mixing things and splitting hairs in eternal circular discussions that don't go anywhere.

 

It is funny your experience because I heard similar ones from lesbian friends who thought that they were asexual and were angry at men in general and at "society" to reading the "need of sex", until, of course, starting having sex with a woman. Then their brains made "aha".

 

Coming back to the original comment:

No, I wouldn't compromise on sex, basically because I think that sex is a huge symptom of compatibility, in general I would not compromise again, and will not compromise, in certain key factors, sex included. 

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On 10/9/2018 at 6:39 PM, ryn2 said:

Sexuals, as you enter into new relationships, how important is sexual compatibility?  I’m not so much talking orientation here; more like, if you start seeing someone new - someone you really like otherwise... easy conversation, similar interests, fun to spend time with, whatever else you look for in a partner - and the sex just isn’t awesome, would you continue the relationship or end it?  Why?

 

I’m looking for personal opinions/past experience, as I’m guessing this may vary from person to person rather than being universally true across all sexuals.

Personally, I look for intellectual compatibility, lack of sexism/bullying (with me or anyone) and a compatible lifestyle overall. These three are non-negotiable. (My ace nails all three, BTW).

 

Since I'm somewhat flexible on the sexual front - happy to have lots of sex, happy to not have sex and happy to be totally on my own too, sex had not, so far, been any major consideration. However after the experiences with my ace, and particularly the past year, I think any future relationships, I'll be keeping an eye on sexual compatibility and build the relationship accordingly. I realize that while having sex on a particular night or not is a non-issue for me, not having sex as an overall relationship pattern doesn't work too well for me in my intimate space. For example, I will not be likely to get into bed sharing with another asexual or sex repulsed or low libido partner in the future. It isn't so much about the lack of sex with that person as relentless sexlessness in my space. Even masturbating feels really odd with the other person present and indifferent.

 

This doesn't mean that I won't have another relationship with an ace or someone who wants sex very infrequently, but it will likely either be platonic or with separate sleeping arrangements and sleeping together only occasionally or when we have sex.

 

As in, I can have a relationship with dramatic sexual incompatibility as long as I have ample space to be myself as well.

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In part for religious reasons, I intend to be abstinent until marriage.  Obviously, there's a limited extent I can reduce the uncertainty of sexual compatibility before making a big-time commitment.  I've never heard anyone in my religious community cite sexual incompatibility as a reason for divorce.

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