Cheshire-Cat

UK Teresa May's post-brexit immigration policy

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Janus DarkFox
On 11/15/2018 at 8:11 PM, chandrakirti said:

I hate to have to say this @Skycaptain, but that's why, when I go abroad, I always say I'm Scottish, not British! No offence intended, I just have a better time that way.

 

In Scotland that's called 'Holding the cat while playing with the kitten'...very apt considering your hall carpet!😋

Same, preferring to be Welsh rather than British, even if it's just into English staycations.  A Legal Alien in New Yor... Well A Legal Fox in London at best :P

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Sally

The Brexit situation started because Cameron decided to put it to a vote, right?   And the vote was very close, 51% for exiting?  And since Cameron had gambled on a different outcome, he then had to schedule an election, which May won?   And things went rapidly downhill from there?  

 

(Those are real questions.)

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Aebt
34 minutes ago, Sally said:

And the vote was very close, 51% for exiting?

Yes, 51.8% I believe.

34 minutes ago, Sally said:

And since Cameron had gambled on a different outcome, he then had to schedule an election, which May won?

Not exactly, he agreed to hold a referendum and despite saying he would remain PM either way, he resigned after announcing the Leave campaign won. He was replaced as Party Leader (and therefore PM) by May after Boris Johnson surprisingly declined. It was an inter-party election though, not a general election.

38 minutes ago, Sally said:

And things went rapidly downhill from there?  

Depends on your viewpoint on many things, but yes, pretty much.

 

I think I got all the info right, but if I did not I am in the USA, United Kingdom politics sadly doesn't (often) make front-page news here.

 

So, since United Kingdom politics are rarely talked in the USA, I have a question for the citizens of the UK:

What's Labour's position on Brexit? Everything I find seems contradictory, but that may be because I am in the USA.

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Scott1989
On 11/15/2018 at 1:05 PM, Skycaptain said:

Let's all vote SNP, they seem to be the only party who aren't (publicly at any rate) divided on this issue 😋 😋 

Lol, like the theory but I could never vote SNP for personal and stupid reasons

Spoiler

Alex Salamond once growled at me like a dog. For that, and hearing how Nicola Sturgeon can be like when cameras aren't on her, I could never vote for them.

But then I'm left with no good alternatives. That is why I hate politics.

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iff
9 hours ago, Aebt said:

Not exactly, he agreed to hold a referendum and despite saying he would remain PM either way, he resigned after announcing the Leave campaign won. He was replaced as Party Leader (and therefore PM) by May after Boris Johnson surprisingly declined. It was an inter-party election though, not a general election.

@Sally

After that, Theresa may did call a general election with the purpose of enhancing the Conservative majority in parliament to ensure an easier negotiation progress.

 

Though this went badly and conservatives lost their majority and she needed the hard-line northern irish unionists DUP to give her a parliamentary majority, helped by the other northern Irish party to win seats refusal to actually take their seats and do some work for their constituents (who despite being on the remain side come across to me as being very strongly eurosceptic party, hence their refusal to agree a compromise candidate with SDLP in a bye-election meaning a valuable remain seat is vacant and no Irish nationalist voice is present)

 

This was against a labour leadership that comes across as very weak under Corbyn (who comes across to me as indifferent on brexit publicly but probably in favour of it secretly)

 

But that is just my viewpoints.

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Ortac

I had an online chat last night with my cousin in England. My English family have always been life long conservative voters and distrusting of the Labour party, but my cousin said that it has now come to the point where they are so appalled and disgusted with the shambles that the Conservative party have created for themselves and the United Kingdom over brexit, that they will never vote for the Conservative party again. Ever. 

 

10 hours ago, Aebt said:

What's Labour's position on Brexit? Everything I find seems contradictory, but that may be because I am in the USA.

I believe that the correct answer to that is "nobody knows". I don't think even the Labour party themselves know, they are just as much a shambles as the Conservative party right now. That is one reason why the United Kingdom is in such a dangerous and perilous position at the moment, because there is no coherent opposition to the governing political party. I feel thankful that I don't live there, because if I did, I would be extremely scared and worried about both the immediate and long term future. 

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Muledeer

I just read an op-ed in the NYT regarding this Brexit mess, then came to this thread to get the opinion of the British common folk.  Thanks for all your contributions.  What I have learned today is that the politics of Britain are just as fucked up as the politics in America.  

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Cheshire-Cat

To be honest I think the politics in a lot of countries are in a bit of a mess right now. People are getting fed up and moving towards more extreme parties and views rather than wanting to stick with the status quo. You just hear more about America due to Trump, and Britain due to Brexit.

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chandrakirti

Geez I'd so like to know what was decided- not just on the immigration, but the whole lot seems shrouded in 750 pages of zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....or probably they've hit Nash's equilibrium....

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Muledeer
54 minutes ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

To be honest I think the politics in a lot of countries are in a bit of a mess right now. People are getting fed up and moving towards more extreme parties and views rather than wanting to stick with the status quo. You just hear more about America due to Trump, and Britain due to Brexit.

I agree.  It seems that humanity has lost the ability to sensibly govern itself.  I'm afraid this is leading to the rise of authoritarianism world-wide.   

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Ortac

An important difference between the Trump situation in the United Stated amd the Brexit situation in the United Kingdom is that the citizens of the United States will have the opportunity to get rid of Trump as president in two years time,  and even if that doesn't happen, his presidency will definitely end four years after that. Brexit on the other hand is pretty much permanent and it has the potential to do damage which would be very difficult to reverse. Should Britain revert to a state similar to how it found itself in the 1970s, the poor man of Europe with a failing economy, the next generation will be cursing the current generation of people and politicians for putting them in that situation.

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Cheshire-Cat
1 hour ago, Ortac said:

An important difference between the Trump situation in the United Stated amd the Brexit situation in the United Kingdom is that the citizens of the United States will have the opportunity to get rid of Trump as president in two years time,  and even if that doesn't happen, his presidency will definitely end four years after that. Brexit on the other hand is pretty much permanent and it has the potential to do damage which would be very difficult to reverse. Should Britain revert to a state similar to how it found itself in the 1970s, the poor man of Europe with a failing economy, the next generation will be cursing the current generation of people and politicians for putting them in that situation.

From my experience it's those around in the 70's that voted for Brexit whilst the youth voted for remain.

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timewarp
On 11/17/2018 at 6:04 PM, chandrakirti said:

Geez I'd so like to know what was decided- not just on the immigration, but the whole lot seems shrouded in 750 pages of zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.....or probably they've hit Nash's equilibrium....

Hidden behind all that legal language and cross references, the gist is that the UK gets more or less the same conditions as Switzerland unless and until negotiated otherwise.

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iff
5 hours ago, timewarp said:

Hidden behind all that legal language and cross references, the gist is that the UK gets more or less the same conditions as Switzerland unless and until negotiated otherwise.

And northern Ireland becomes the best place in UK and Ireland for foreign direct investment with excellent access to both EU and the uk.

 

I am a little concerned that it will hurt us south of the border (particularly in the southern border counties of Ireland like Louth, Cavan, monaghan and donegal) because of how good a deal it is for northern ireland in terms of investment.

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chandrakirti

Now I just have to find out what deal Switzerland get...hey! Isn't it a good deal they have? I'm sure I heard some thing about Switzerland being quite well off ....

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Ortac
5 minutes ago, chandrakirti said:

Now I just have to find out what deal Switzerland get...hey! Isn't it a good deal they have?

This old BBC article from 2016 explains the basics quite well:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36639261

 

8 minutes ago, chandrakirti said:

 I'm sure I heard some thing about Switzerland being quite well off ....

Yes, indeed they are. But you cannot compare Switzerland with the UK, or with any other country for that matter. Switzerland is truly unique in Europe and the world. Switzerland has many qualities that the UK could only dream of. 

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ben8884

I think the deal will pass. Enough rebel Tories will vote yea citing "party loyalty" when in reality they know that it not passing means either an election where they will be punished, a referendum they could loose, or no deal meaning election punishment for not delivering the greatest deal ever as they promised. Pass the deal, let May carry the can for it and then renegotiate later. 

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Cheshire-Cat
2 hours ago, ben8884 said:

I think the deal will pass. Enough rebel Tories will vote yea citing "party loyalty" when in reality they know that it not passing means either an election where they will be punished, a referendum they could loose, or no deal meaning election punishment for not delivering the greatest deal ever as they promised. Pass the deal, let May carry the can for it and then renegotiate later. 

Well the DUP will down vote it and they're what May relies on for her majority. 

I think it won't pass and there will be an increased pressure for a new referendum which they will eventually have to relent to. (At least I hope).

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ben8884
4 minutes ago, Cheshire-Cat said:

Well the DUP will down vote it and they're what May relies on for her majority. 

I think it won't pass and there will be an increased pressure for a new referendum which they will eventually have to relent to. (At least I hope).

If enough Labour rebels support the bill and at last count it was 15, the DUP won't matter. That being said I hope you're right. 

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timewarp

As far as I remember, about 100 Conservative MPs are planning to vote against it. So even if there are a few Labour rebels, the chances of this getting through are very slim. On the other hand the three major defeats for the government today have shown that there could be a majority for an alternative plan if it's thought through. Just wildly guessing, that might well be a Norway option (or "Norway for now" as the hard Brexiters would call it).

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Cheshire-Cat

I think the fact that the EU judges have near enough said we could cancel Brexit right up till the day may play a part too as it could push those of a 'well it's better than no deal' who may have voted for, to vote against it as there's now another option. 

 

I think if it's voted against there really should be another referendum. Mind you I do wonder whether the amount of media coverage it's had may put people off voting as they're so fed up of hearing about Brexit now. I mean you literally can't get away from it.

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ben8884

I think most of those 100 will end up supporting the bill. The EU have already said they are done negotiating so its this, no deal, an election or a referendum. Rebel Tories might not want to face the electorate, having ti explain to their constituents why they failed to get a deal or a good deal so they will vote in favour, say its for party unity and then work on it in the years to come. At least, thats what I think, I hope it doesn't pass and we get a new referendum. 

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timewarp

In other occasions I would say the 100 would end up voting with the government. But this one is different. If they vote for something that just doesn't float they are in serious trouble in their constituencies, so they will prefer saving their long-term career to avoiding short-term trouble with the whips. And let's be realistic, if Theresa May loses this vote they don't have to worry about that a lot, because then her government is pretty much done, so there is nothing to fear really.

 

As for the EU - yes, they've said they're done negotiating. But that goes for these dreadful negotiations in which the British side didn't know what it wanted and just kept saying no to everything. They will also not refuse to negotiate if the British parliament decides for one of the options that are easy for the EU side. Norway would be one of them. That would really be a game changer, because (1) the British side would finally go into the negotiations with a clear goal and (2) they would play by the EU rules, which are "pick one of our standard options or get lost".

 

In all honesty I believe another referendum would be the worst outcome. It makes the whole thing very uncertain and puts the country's destiny once again in the hands of the Daily Mail and The Sun. I do think MPs need to finally live up to their responsibility and make an informed decision. Even for them this is difficult despite the fact that they are full-time politicians. So how could the electorate be in a better position to decide?

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Skycaptain

I'm waiting for this whole charade to be deemed psychological torture persuant to the Geneva Convention and the whole government get arrested and taken to The Hague 

 

*pop* 

 

Wakes up from the dream :mad::(

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iff
12 hours ago, rudolph the timewarp said:

As for the EU - yes, they've said they're done negotiating. But that goes for these dreadful negotiations in which the British side didn't know what it wanted and just kept saying no to everything

One thing the negotiations did show was the power of a very small country when they are part of a bloc compared to a larger country without a bloc.

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Ortac

In the news, ministers have been found to be in contempt of parliament.

 

Does the UK parliament actually deserve anything other than contempt right now? 

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timewarp
44 minutes ago, Ortac said:

In the news, ministers have been found to be in contempt of parliament.

 

Does the UK parliament actually deserve anything other than contempt right now? 

Yes, absolutely. The way the government treats parliament (and also citizens) is completely undignified. On the other hand if you follow parliamentary debates you will find that this parliament is one of the best there have ever been. Not regarding any opinions MPs might hold, in fact I disagree with many of them, but because of their democratic culture. The contempt vote (and the humble address that came before it) is actually a very good example of this. They are fighting for their democratic rights as elected representatives of the people. They also put party differences aside and found common ground across party boundaries.

 

You also absolutely need to understand that the UK has no written constitution. There is an implicit constitution, but it only lives because parliamentarians are keeping it alive. The May government has continuously been trying to undermine parliament, and parliament has been handling it brilliantly. So if anybody deserves contempt, it is the government.

 

If you have a chance to watch the contempt debate, I'd strongly recommend to do so to see what I mean. The way that politicians of completely opposing views spoke up for each other was simply remarkable.

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timewarp

Norwegian politicians are being increasingly vocal that they won't accept the "Norway plus" option. I've just looked up some facts about EFTA. Turns out the UK is about 4.5 times bigger than all EFTA states taken together, both in terms of population and in terms of GDP. So for the EFTA states there's absolutely nothing to fear, right? :lol:

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Telecaster68

A political ally of the Norwegian prime minister was on the BBC the other day wryly saying they'd be politely miffed if the UK joined as EFTA is currently the only multilateral organisation where Norway is the biggest player... 

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timewarp

Now here's an idea. The UK should join the free-trade agreement between the US, Canada and Mexico and just operate with Europe on WTO terms. Geographically it's a bit of a no-brainer, but economically and politically it would probably fit in nicely.

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