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UK Teresa May's post-brexit immigration policy


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1 hour ago, michaeld said:

I'd simply be happy having a few more viable choices, obviating the second-guessing required when tactically voting under FPTP, and yet still voting for a local MP as well as a party.

This sounds like you would like the German system (I believe also implemented in a few other countries by now)? Because it's almost exactly like that. The first vote is for a local MP (direct mandate) and the second one for a party. The uneven distribution caused by the first vote gets completely compensated by additional seats, so it is indeed a fully proportional system that still has local MPs. There's also a "5% hurdle" that means parties that don't reach at least 5% of the vote share can't get into parliaments unless they get direct mandates. The latter is a precaution so the more extreme parties have more difficulties getting in.

 

In practice most people don't care a lot about the first vote, unless there are some important local issues or there is a prominent politician in that constituency. For example my "local" MP (expats vote in their last place of residence) is Wolfgang Schäuble, arguably one of the most hated politicians worldwide, so I was quite keen to vote against him (in vain, he still got 70% of the votes).

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On 1/3/2019 at 1:54 PM, michaeld said:

Actually even PR disfavours smaller parties in a way, albeit not as much. Each individual still has to assign their entire vote to a party. To be truly proportionate, each voter should be able to split their vote as a percentage for each option.

Could adopt the Irish system where we use a mix of alternate vote and proportional representation but with individual candidates on ballot than a list system, as an example

 

https://electionsireland.org/counts.cfm?election=2016&cons=105&ref=

 

So it combines

- alternative vote

- individual candidates

- multi seat constituencies (in parliament elections, seats are 3, 4 or 5. In locals, it is possible for 5 - 10 seat constituencies)

- days of fun counting ballot papers and transferring and recounting votes

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There's only one solution. I will have to take control and run the country as a Skytatorship.😋 😋 😋 😋 

 

Stay in Europe 

Cut the drink-drive limit 

No maximum speed limits 

Encourage migration and investment from overseas by making people welcome 

Legalise cannabis to free up prison space and police time 

Renationalise infrastructure 

Replace HS2 with a maglev train, it's stupid spending £50 billion on obsolete technologies 

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8 minutes ago, Skycaptain said:

No maximum speed limits

Pointless anecdote - prior to France introducing a speed limit  Laurent fignon and a team mate were travelling to some race hurtling along the road at a high speed, up ahead fignon sees a traffic light on green. He slows down, to the surprise of the team mate. He explains to team mate that at the speed they were going, they would get to the light at red.  Sure enough, when they reach the light it is turning back to green.

 

Any on topic, You have my vote

 

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The government suffered a minor defeat in Parliament yesterday, basically MP's saying that they don't want a no deal Brexit 

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Question I'm asking myself is whether I want the deal to pass parliament. The deal being rejected could lead to the worst outcome (no deal Brexit) but it could conceivably also lead to the best outcome (a cancellation of Brexit).

 

A second referendum (the "people's vote") would cause a very toxic atmosphere indeed, and unless remain won by a huge margin it wouldn't settle anything. And if leave won we'd be back to square one. The latter could even be taken as an endorsement of a "no deal Brexit". (Which it shouldn't, but then the 2016 referendum should never have been taken as an endorsement of leaving the single market, but it is widely interpreted exactly that way.)

 

I think the best hope is that at some point May says "right! You've voted down my deal and you've ruled out no deal. No option but to cancel Brexit - and it's your fault (MPs)." That way she could blame MPs and maybe save face.

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1 hour ago, michaeld said:

I think the best hope is that at some point May says "right! You've voted down my deal and you've ruled out no deal. No option but to cancel Brexit - and it's your fault (MPs)." That way she could blame MPs and maybe save face.

Or hold a referendum and then blame the people and save face.

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The problem with another referendum is what the heck do we do if leave wins again? Crash out without a deal? And if remain wins with less than 55% (or perhaps even 60%), leavers will want a best of 3.

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On 1/9/2019 at 10:30 PM, ben8884 said:

Or hold a referendum and then blame the people and save face.

What would the ballot paper look like for a second vote?

 

A straight leave v remain

A vote with 3 choices - remain, leave with deal on table, leave +no deal

A preferendum with those three choices

2 votes, one to accept May's deal and a contingent vote, if rejected then choice between remaining and leave with no deal

 

I think options need to be worded in way that means politicians can't go and say "we'll go back and get a better deal" as that I think is a false promise

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Seeing as how Parliament has said they refuse to back a no deal Brexit, and the EU has said they are done negotiating I think a simple May's deal vs no Brexit would suffice. 

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Never mind a referendum, this debate is becoming a neverendum 

 

Besides, at the end of the day, the government has no obligation to heed the outcome of the vote anyway. 

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7 hours ago, Skycaptain said:

Never mind a referendum, this debate is becoming a neverendum

It is and I'm tired of it too, and wish it was over. The problem is though the ramifications of a hard Brexit will continue for decades, no matter how long the debate lasts.

 

I'm dreading the idea of an extension to the negotiations (which will only happen if every EU country agrees to it). I'd be all in favour of it if I thought the time was going to be used constructively, but I fear it will just be more of the same and will only make the entire thing drag on...

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13 hours ago, ben8884 said:

Seeing as how Parliament has said they refuse to back a no deal Brexit, and the EU has said they are done negotiating I think a simple May's deal vs no Brexit would suffice. 

So that would be forcing the hard brexit mps to accept the deal on the table?

 

42 minutes ago, michaeld said:

It is and I'm tired of it too, and wish it was over. The problem is though the ramifications of a hard Brexit will continue for decades, no matter how long the debate lasts.

 

I'm dreading the idea of an extension to the negotiations (which will only happen if every EU country agrees to it). I'd be all in favour of it if I thought the time was going to be used constructively, but I fear it will just be more of the same and will only make the entire thing drag on...

And to make it worse, the current deal is only the transitional arrangements for when the UK leaves the EU, not the final final agreement for when the transition period ends

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If the deal is rejected by parliament I'm going to be elated in some ways but very worried in others. If the deal is accepted by parliament I'm going to be disappointed but relieved. Funny how that works. Either way, we wait with baited breath...

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Result is out. The deal is rejected by 432 votes to 202 - the biggest government defeat in history, according to the BBC.

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Sorry for a double follow up. Corbyn has just called a vote of no confidence tomorrow. He is pretty much shouting...

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Can we have a vote of no confidence in Parliament, and just let half a dozen captains of industry, and a few respected people from the military, education etc take over 

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It's just ridiculous... she and other politicians keep bleating on and on about how they are must deliver on the result of the referendum and they seem determined to do so at all costs. This will affect 100% of Brits, not just those that voted for this madness, so they would be perfectly justified in calling it all off, but they just can't see it. Mrs May is like Javert in his relentless pursuit of Jean Valjean, she is so obsessed with delivering Brexit that she had become blinkered and obsessed and she has lost sight of what is truly important. The referendum that was held is exactly like allowing a load of six year olds to vote on their school's teaching policies and school budget; they would have little understanding of the implications of it all. 

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Honestly it's not just parliament. The "will of the people" rhetoric is pretty ubiquitous in certain parts of the press, and for that matter among at least roughly 50% of the population.

 

I think Corbyn made a big mistake by calling the no confidence vote just after the result. The DUP will back the government. They've already said so. And it makes sense - if they don't, they're voting themselves out of power and influence, as there won't be a conservative-DUP coalition next time - or at least that's pretty unlikely. So the only way the no confidence vote could pass is if a handful of conservatives vote against their own government, and that's highly implausible.

 

So May will win tomorrow and that will take the sting off this defeat, handing back some momentum to the government leadership.

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Starting a new topic here to discuss the consequences of the vote 

https://www.asexuality.org/en/topic/180712-record-defeat-for-the-british-government-what-happens-next/

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