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UK Teresa May's post-brexit immigration policy


Cheshire-Cat

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Another referendum with a huge majority for remain (at least 70%) is the only way I can see of ending this mess. If leave wins again, we're done for. If remain wins only by a narrow margin, it won't settle anything.

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I think a referendum will end it regardless. If we hold one based on this deal or remaining and this deal wins, MPs will have to let it pass, if remain wins there is no longer a need for a vote. Either way, its settled.  

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On 12/11/2018 at 9:42 PM, Sleighcaptain said:

It's not the government's fault. It was mass media and a few racist muppet with loud mouths conning the Alf Garnret generation

I really resent that! In fact I'm so angry I could spit! How dare you make such sweeping statements, in effect saying that the older generation are muppets who cannot think straight. Well, I have news for you - I may not be the sharpest knife in the drawer but I was NOT influenced by the hype from either side. I was NOT CONNED!

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In the original referendum on leaving the EU, was northern Ireland given any thought with the irish-northern Irish border?

 

I am also a little bit concerned that some politicians (farage, mogg, patel for example) are using this to stoke anti-irish sentiment. Mogg strikes me as a Scooby doo villain ("we'd have gotten everything we wanted if it wasn't for those meddling Irish".) 

 

Has any of the brexit supporters came up with a solution to the Irish border question that is viable that would take the UK out of the customs unite but maintain the soft border between Ireland and UK so that the only difference is that speeds are in mph instead of kmph and one has a broken line, the other doesn't?

No, because there is no viable solution that would satisfy everyone.

 

From the leaders of brexit, there only ideas come from bad sci-fi movies or stoner comedies "oh my god, what if we had x-ray video specs to see through moving lorries and cargo in containers" "omg, that would be fan. What about terminator eyes where you can just see the details of people by looking at them without needing a hard border"

 

Talk of going back to EU to renegotiate, may has to get the support of her party and a few other MPs, on the EU side, a renegotiate plan would need to get the support of the remaining 27 states .

 

What about businesses, May's government has left this to 100 days to tell people to plan for no deal, it is not enough time for businesses to put in contingency plans . the UK businesses are left in limbo and don't know what is the position in the short term, medium term or long term. It is terrible for business, this uncertainty.

 

If may wants a better deal, she needs to extend the period which as the ecj decided, she can do unilaterally.

 

If may wants to give businesses more time to prepare, she needs to extend the period. If not, it will really 

 

It really is a pity that labour in opposition under corbyn is coming across to me as inept and unable to formulate coherent policy on exiting the eu either. I think corbyn is really in favour of leaving the eu (maybe not May's plan) but from the referendum, he was ineffective and I don't think he had heart or belief in the few words he had said in favour of remaining.

 

I'm not sure lib dems still exist either (ok I know they do but they are voiceless)

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Ireland was given some consideration during the referendum, but in hindsight not nearly as much as it should have been. I agree with you: there is basically no viable solution to the problem except a) remain in the EU, b) join the EEA instead, leaving the EU but preserving freedom of movement. The latter would have been ok, albeit worse than staying in the EU, but it's been firmly ruled out by the "leave means leave" rhetoric. (Which is funny as the EEA was mentioned as a good option for leaving, before the referendum...)

 

" If may wants a better deal, she needs to extend the period which as the ecj decided, she can do unilaterally.  "

That's not my understanding. I thought the ECJ ruled that the UK can unilaterally cancel Article 50 (and thus Brexit) up till the deadline. I'm not aware we can unilaterally extend the negotiation period; I thought that would need the agreement of all the EU states?

 

edit: regarding the first paragraph, there are actually other possibilities. One would have been letting NI effectively stay within the customs union / freedom of movement area, while the rest of the UK left. The DUP would block it, but if they were out of the picture, I think most of N.Ireland, including the more moderate unionists, might have accepted it. Another would be to reunify Ireland...  And of course yet another would be for the Republic of Ireland to agree to leave the EU as well, thus solving the problem. This last possibility might not be the most likely...

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13 minutes ago, michaeld said:

 

" If may wants a better deal, she needs to extend the period which as the ecj decided, she can do unilaterally.  "

That's not my understanding. I thought the ECJ ruled that the UK can unilaterally cancel Article 50 (and thus Brexit) up till the deadline. I'm not aware we can unilaterally extend the negotiation period; I thought that would need the agreement of all the EU states?

Sorry I was wrong on that point

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my recollection was that the referendum people talked about Northern Ireland and also Gibraltar but the mentality of the government was to negotiate the things the UK and EU basically already agree on and deal with the messier stuff later when by then most of the agreement would be hashed out. 

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I find it extremely shocking but not surprising that Theresa May and her government would allow the UK to crash out of the European Union with no deal rather than rescind article 50 if that is the only alternative. They absolutely do not have the mandate to allow a no deal situation. Had the vote in the referendum been 90+ percent in favour of leaving, then maybe, but 52% is no way a strong enough mandate to force such a hugely fundamental change to the status quo upon such a large number of people who don't want it, even if they are a slim minority.

 

These vehement hard core leavers are mainly people who live in areas of England outside London, and I would say that they are being extremely selfish and egocentric in their attitudes. They have probably never set foot in places like Northern Ireland or Gibraltar, and to them these places probably feel like some distant land. Out of sight, out of mind. The people who live in these places, as well as 3 million plus British people who exercised their right to free movement to live in other European countries, could all be drastically affected by Brexit to the extent of having their lives ruined, and for what? What benefits do these little Englanders think they are going to get from Brexit? Some perceived abstract ideology of "taking back control"? More money for their precious NHS? Nonsense. If anything, Brexit will be to the detriment of the NHS, not any benefit. I doubt many of them know much about the EU and how it works, they just know that they hate it and they want out of it. 

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It's the "free movement" issue. It's quite alright for Britains to buy half of Bulgaria to use as holiday homes, so long as the displaced Bulgarians don't come here looking for work 😋 😋 

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On 12/12/2018 at 11:47 PM, chandrakirti said:

We must be a laughing stock (visibly now, although I suspect we've been that for at least a generation now...)

No, I'm afraid that America has the corner on that.  

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3 hours ago, Ortac said:

 If anything, Brexit will be to the detriment of the NHS, not any benefit.

Especially when you consider how many European staff work in NHS hospitals, this may well be true.

 

Quote

I doubt many of them know much about the EU and how it works, they just know that they hate it and they want out of it. 

So fun fact about me, when I was very young I liked the EU however for most of my schooling and when I studied politics I was a staunch Brexiter. I left England and never really thought about it until the referendum came up and decided to look into it. Once I looked into it honestly I realized that as a British worker the EU had done more for me than any government in Downing Street. I also began to see its a lot more democratic than we had been left to believe. I am not saying everyone who voted for Brexit doesn't know how the EU works or understands the issues but I didn't. 

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12 hours ago, festiff said:

What about businesses, May's government has left this to 100 days to tell people to plan for no deal, it is not enough time for businesses to put in contingency plans . the UK businesses are left in limbo and don't know what is the position in the short term, medium term or long term. It is terrible for business, this uncertainty.

 

If may wants a better deal, she needs to extend the period which as the ecj decided, she can do unilaterally.

 

If may wants to give businesses more time to prepare, she needs to extend the period. If not, it will really 

Don't worry about businesses. If they don't get certainty they create their own. Most businesses will have triggered their contingency plans by Christmas. A lot of them have already done it within the last few weeks. There's already a massive flow of investments from the UK to continental Europe and Ireland.

 

What politicians - and I'm afraid voters even more - don't seem to understand is the simple fact that businesses are about making profit. They will always choose the most profitable option over the most red-white-and-blue one. This is why the brexiteer James Dyson has all his manufacturing in Malaysia rather than creating jobs in Britain.

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Hi @ben8884

 

I don't believe either that everyone who voted for the UK to leave the EU did not understand the issues, but I do believe that the vote was swung that way by a significant number of people who do not.

 

Some of the crap that I have read by people posted online is just scary. I have seen appalling comments such as "I voted to leave because I want the UK to bring back hanging and the EU prohibits capital punishment", and "I voted to leave because my town is overrun with Pakistanis". Shows the level of intelligence that some people have if they think that Pakistan has anything to do with the European Union.

 

I think it raises the question of whether so called democracy is really a good thing. Democracy is about everyone having a vote, but it really a good idea to allow someone to vote on something about which they do not have sufficient knowledgeable?

 

I also have an interesting little story about that. When I was in school around the age of 13 or 14, I was in a German lesson. The teacher divided the class into two teams to compete against each other in quiz. Our text book had a range of multiple choice questions about schools in Germany, and how school life in Germany compared to our own.

 

We faced the problem that there was about twelve of us in the team, but we had to come up with a single answer to each question that we agreed on. The team I was in decided that the way to do it was to have a "democratic vote" on each question, and the answer that most people thought was the right one would be the answer our team submitted as a whole. I totally agreed with this approach.

 

The other team did not take this approach. What happened? The other team absolutely thrashed us. We ended up with something like two or three correct answers out of ten, whilst the other team got every single question right.

 

The truth was nobody in either team knew anything much at all about schools in Germany, yet someone in the other team had noticed that the photographs and sample school time table printed in the text book in the pages before the quiz effectively gave away the correct answers to anyone who was astute enough to spot them. That person had taken charge of the entire team and said "Right, this is clearly the right answer, I am putting it as our final answer. All agreed? Good!"

 

Our team had been so focused and preoccupied with carrying out our "democratic vote" process for each question, that we completely failed to spot what the other team had. I have always remembered that, because it taught me a very important lesson. I think it is a lesson that a lot of other people would benefit from as well.

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On 12/19/2018 at 11:15 AM, rudolph the timewarp said:

This is why the brexiteer James Dyson has all his manufacturing in Malaysia rather than creating jobs in Britain.

That man's opinion on Brexit puts him at odds with almost every other entrepreneur and business leader. It would seem that he's living in a vacuum.

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Anthracite_Impreza
15 minutes ago, Ortac said:

It would seem that he's living in a vacuum.

I see what you did there.

 

I've given up giving a shit now, they'll only do what they want without regard of logic or morality. I'm getting new non-EU plates for my cars soon anyway.

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I think that it has now got to the point where the Conservative party in the UK have now condemned themselves to a very long period in opposition, and they are not going to be able to do anything now to prevent that regardless of what happens with Brexit. Deal, no deal, or cancel and remain; they have conducted themselves so badly and upset the nation so much that the damage they have done to themselves is now irreversible. 

 

The question of when it happens is entirely in the hands of the Labour party and when they get their act together and make themselves into a party that is fit to govern. Right now, the Labour party is in such an appalling state that people probably wouldn't want to risk electing them into government, but all they have to do is get rid of Corbyn and Abbott and any other useless individuals making up the shadow cabinet, install a competent leader, and they will have no problem beating the Conservative party in a general election, and probably a couple more after that. 

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Therein lies the problem. None of the main parties have demonstrated that they are fit to govern. 

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12 minutes ago, Sleighcaptain said:

Therein lies the problem. None of the main parties have demonstrated that they are fit to govern. 

I think that if the Labour party had done the sensible thing and made Owen Smith party leader when he challenged Jeremy Corbyn instead of keeping Corbyn, things could now be very different. I am not saying that Mr Smith would have been the most brilliant leader ever, but he would at least have been much more competent than Corbyn and Milliband before him, and there would actually be a proper opposition to the Conservative government right now. 

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It's a bit off topic, but many people don't trust Labour after the Blair/Brown years of unfettered borrowing, wars of questionable legality etc. The Lib-dems lost credibility by jumping into coalition with the Tories. UKIP got us into this mess. 

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Anthracite_Impreza

I'd vote for Corbyn, he's a decent bloke. The media has done an excellently biased job painting him as an anti-semetic, 'evil communist' though, and people are stupid enough they won't do any thinking for themselves on the matter.

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2 hours ago, Sleighcaptain said:

It's a bit off topic, but many people don't trust Labour after the Blair/Brown years of unfettered borrowing, wars of questionable legality etc. The Lib-dems lost credibility by jumping into coalition with the Tories. UKIP got us into this mess. 

I think the lib dems were treated rather unfairly. They went into a coalition with the Tories because the numbers didn't add up to make a coalition with Labour, and this was the only way they could make a difference. Plus they were under a lot of pressure to make a government for the sake of the country. I think they threw out a lot of bad stuff that didn't even make it to a vote. If they'd still been in the coalition after the 2015 election, they would have thrown out the Brexit referendum and we wouldn't be in this mess. Cameron would probably have been relieved to have a get-out.

 

I think Corbyn is a decent person but I dont agree with his politics. I'd only consider voting Labour if they ran on a clear promise of halting Brexit or having another referendum. Or at the very least, adopt a policy of staying in the single market (e.g. the EEA). Unfortunately, Corbyn keeps on ruling this out.

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Lib Dems are merely Tories under a different name.

Are those who were influenced by the Brexit propaganda any more delusional than those who believed that of Project Fear? Because the dire consequences they forecast have simply not materialised. The pound has dropped in value, but has not gone into freefall - and it could be said that the Euro is in greater danger. Growth is still healthy - better than some other EU countries; countries outside the EU are keen to trade with us. 

And British fishermen will be able to go to sea when weather permits, not confined to port other than a few days each year.

 

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2 hours ago, Frankentan said:

Lib Dems are merely Tories under a different name.

False. Leaving aside every other difference in policy, the lib dems are resolutely pro-remaining in the EU.

 

2 hours ago, Frankentan said:
Are those who were influenced by the Brexit propaganda any more delusional than those who believed that of Project Fear? Because the dire consequences they forecast have simply not materialised.

The current situation is every bit as bad as I feared. If anything I'd say "Project Fear" were guilty of understatement. And we haven't even left the EU yet.

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Anthracite_Impreza
3 hours ago, Frankentan said:

And British fishermen will be able to go to sea when weather permits, not confined to port other than a few days each year.

There's a valid reason to restrict fishing, to prevent overfishing. Fish stocks in many places have collapsed 90% or more. If people want to continue slaughtering fish they're going to have to stop eating the oceans bare. It has nothing to do with the pesky EU being nasty.

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A good proportion of the Tories are pro EU, that's why May is having such a hard time getting anything agreed.

 

The ONS figures aren't bad - https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/abmi/qna

But, as I say I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer so what would I know? :) 

 

Under the CFP, the British fishermen are allowed to go to sea only for a set number of days and are further restricted as to teh TYPE of fish they can catch. Now, although radar can indicate a shoal, it does not tell them the breed of fish. They only know that when the bring the nets on board. If it's a type they are not allowed catch then it must be returned to the sea. Unfortunately the fish are dead by this time so they're in effect polluting the seas with dead fish. Can you tell me how that policy helps to preserve fish stocks? Don't forget,the UK is signed up to the UN Law of the Sea Convention which allows countries to establish an Exclusive Economic Zone of up to 200 nautical miles from their coast. The convention also require countries to ensure that fish stocks are conserved. Cornish lobster fishermen have strict regulations as to the size and gender of the lobsters they're allowed to land. THe EU does not have a monopoly on conservation of anything.
 

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Anthracite_Impreza

I mean, I'd rather people just stop eating fish. It would solve many issues and prevent needless, widespread, inhumane deaths.

 

/end diversion

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The more I hear about UK politics the more it reminds me of US politics. :P My condolences.

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Not quite but it's getting that way. And in some ways Brexit is even more devastating than Trump. At least the Trump insanity will be over in 2 or 6 years, whereas Brexit will have a detrimental effect possibly for decades or forever.

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Some of the effects of Trump could last quite a while, too (like judicial appointments, and impacts to things like global climate change, the economy, etc.). But I take your point. Hopefully we can start getting back to better things once he's out.

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Trouble is that here it's not just TM. This whole charade has split the country in two. Like apartheid in South Africa only not divided on race, but your political view. 

In my opinion if this goes ahead I will be stripped of my European citizenship. To remove someone's citizenship is a capital crime persuant to the Geneva Convention on War Crimes. Nuff said really 

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