AspieAlly613

Missing Perspective On #MeToo and sexual harassment in general

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

I also shared my experience of being sexually assaulted, and was told it had to be spoilered. ( If I had to do it all over again, I would NEVER open up about it again, although I got a lot of support, I also got a lot of grief about it.)

I’m sorry you went through all of that.  I think the same toxic culture that sucks for AFAB people and AMAB women sucks for many other AMAB men as well.

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Jusey1
3 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I’m not sure how calling the police on everyone who catcalls or otherwise verbally harasses strangers (of any gender) benefits anyone,

Here's a question... Why would you? Yes, they're being rude and maybe even assoholic due to their words and catcalling, but why would you call the police on them to begin with? That's very unnecessary and overreacting to the situation that is given. Now if they're stalking you, threatening you, and so on... Then yes, do call the police. They might potentially endanger you. Verbal stuff though? A lot of that is very easily blocked, so to say. Usually when someone verbally abuses me, I just remember in my head of all the time I've helped someone, made friends and family smile, and overall been a positive light and just ignore those idiotic assholes... As long as they don't go from saying stupid words to actually harming you or threatening you, then it's not a big deal.

In all honesty, we all "verbal abuse" someone or something. Especially behind someone's back. This mostly happens due to differences in opinions than anything else. For example, how many of us here alone has said very mean and harsh things about Donald Trump and his followers simply because we disagree with them? I don't care how wrong we think they are, but in the end of the day... We just have opinions that disagrees with them and yet we do say some really mean and nasty shit about them... And I bet you someone will be doing just what I am saying here since I brought it up.

I feel like people tend to forget that verbal stuff is a two-way street and a common thing in human nature due to opinions.

 

3 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I’m using Oxford’s “a society or environment whose prevailing social attitudes have the effect of normalizing or trivializing sexual assault and abuse.”

I'm using the same definition and by that definition. We do not live in a rape culture. We, as a society and the United State country, do not normalize sexual assault and abuse. Or even trivializes it, assuming you are using the right definition of trivialization. Hell, sexual assault and abuse is flat-out illegal. A crime. The person in question can be taken to jail if the accusations are correct...

Wait. Are you suggesting that because we have a Justice system of "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" that we trivialize sexual assault and abuse? Please don't tell me that you are because that is simply ridiculous.

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FictoCannibal.
9 minutes ago, Jusey1 said:

do not normalize sexual assault and abuse.

No but we live in a culture where it's okay for a man to tell women they should be happy men like their bodies, when said women are discussing how uncomfortable catcalling makes them. In this culture, said man will even become annoyed when everyone tries to explain to him why he is wrong in suggesting that women should 'lighten up' about the catcalling issue. He'll feel justified in the fact that he is normalizing this disgusting predatory behavior.

 

You clearly haven't been reading the actual experiences with catcalling women here have shared, or if you have read them you are completely ignoring them. It's rarely just a comment, and the actions and words used are intentionally designed to make the female whom the words/actions are directed at feel scared, dirty, small, and vulnerable. That's just a fact. It's what catcalling is. You seem to be thinking we are talking about telling a lady she has nice hair, but that's not what we're talking about. Here's an example of how catcalling is different from saying 'Hey, cool hair!' (which is a genuine compliment a guy could direct at a member of either sex without it being weird).

 

Catcalling (the type of behavior we are talking about)

 

Guy: You've got nice hair

Lady: Ignores him

Guy: Hey, I'm talking to you (starts following her as she keeps walking)

Lady: keeps ignoring him

Guy: What's the matter babe, got a stick up your arse? I can fix that for you honey

Lady: walks faster to get away from him

Guy: Hey cmmon honey, I just want to get to know you a little, loosen up that arse a bit..

Lady: dodges off among a group of people so he can't keep following her

Guy: (yells) You're a stuck up slut anyway, no one would want to fuck you you tight-arse c*nt!!

 

That's a very normal, very common experience with catcalling, and often you're not lucky enough to find people you can run to. I've had to endure right through parks before until I got out among people again. Catcalling is never just a compliment, and the 'compliment' is designed as an opening to intimidate the woman whether she says 'thank you' (which he will use as an excuse to move in on her) or whether she ignores him, which he uses as an excuse to follow her for a bit while continuing to intimidate her. And the example I just gave can be pretty mild as far as the behavior goes. 

 

If you keep trying to justify it or normalize it, you're only proving the fact that we live in a culture where this is a massive issue (and this isn't the only culture which has an issue with it). Your attitude is part of what makes this a 'rape culture' because you're suggesting the woman should be happy about predatory advances instead of saying that the behavior itself needs to stop. If everyone decided it was totally unacceptable and started standing up to men who do this, they'd stop pretty quickly because they're cowards who prey on lone women and they only do it to this extent because they can get away with it. It's 'acceptable', and men like you even try to suggest women should be happy about it. It'll stop when people like you stop acting like it's okay.

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ryn2
38 minutes ago, Jusey1 said:

Here's a question... Why would you? Yes, they're being rude and maybe even assoholic due to their words and catcalling, but why would you call the police on them to begin with? That's very unnecessary and overreacting to the situation that is given. Now if they're stalking you, threatening you, and so on... Then yes, do call the police. They might potentially endanger you. Verbal stuff though? A lot of that is very easily blocked, so to say. Usually when someone verbally abuses me, I just remember in my head of all the time I've helped someone, made friends and family smile, and overall been a positive light and just ignore those idiotic assholes... As long as they don't go from saying stupid words to actually harming you or threatening you, then it's not a big deal.

In all honesty, we all "verbal abuse" someone or something. Especially behind someone's back. This mostly happens due to differences in opinions than anything else. For example, how many of us here alone has said very mean and harsh things about Donald Trump and his followers simply because we disagree with them? I don't care how wrong we think they are, but in the end of the day... We just have opinions that disagrees with them and yet we do say some really mean and nasty shit about them... And I bet you someone will be doing just what I am saying here since I brought it up.

I feel like people tend to forget that verbal stuff is a two-way street and a common thing in human nature due to opinions.

 

I'm using the same definition and by that definition. We do not live in a rape culture. We, as a society and the United State country, do not normalize sexual assault and abuse. Or even trivializes it, assuming you are using the right definition of trivialization. Hell, sexual assault and abuse is flat-out illegal. A crime. The person in question can be taken to jail if the accusations are correct...

Wait. Are you suggesting that because we have a Justice system of "Innocent Until Proven Guilty" that we trivialize sexual assault and abuse? Please don't tell me that you are because that is simply ridiculous.

Sorry, can no longer multiquote...

 

1) no, I wasn’t suggesting people call the police on catcallers; I was responding to your earlier post about how people should put a stop to illegal behavior.

 

2, 3) I’m not saying our laws trivialize sexual abuse or assault; I’m saying our culture does.  It has little or nothing to do with the laws themselves.

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ryn2
Just now, ryn2 said:

In all honesty, we all "verbal abuse" someone or something. Especially behind someone's back. 

I doubt many people care what the catcallers say out of earshot. Talking negatively about someone who isn’t present may be discourteous and ill-advised for other reasons but it is not being verbally abusive.

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Calligraphette_Coe
2 hours ago, The Dryad said:

People don't like talking about issues that call out a certain group of the population, no matter what, we need to talk about stuff like this! Our society is falling apart.

 

@Calligraphette_Coe I'm sorry people gave you grief, especially when it's already so hard to talk about. 💜

I just sat behind my computer and cried while reading what Dr. Ford related happened to her during the Kavanugh hearings. Being held down, being powerless to resist because multiple people were doing it, being  ridiculed while it was going on,  being terrified, just everything. And then the cruelest stroke of all, being gaslighted as though you were hysterical and lashing out blindly, just so the alleged perps could maintain their narratives while you were left with ghosts reaching from the past with their deathly cold hands to haunt your every attempt at being able to achieve intimacy again.

 

And feeling like you have to at least tell your story, its falling on deaf ears and dumb lips be damned. Because if you don't, nothing will ever change.

 

2 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I’m sorry you went through all of that.  I think the same toxic culture that sucks for AFAB people and AMAB women sucks for many other AMAB men as well.

 I know. And I feel like "Is there _anything_, if we have to move heaven and earth to achieve it, that we can do? Something like Mothers Against Drunk Driving. Are there other answers, like technology? Say an undetectable body cam that can be turned on to record these monsters doing what they do?

 

And I think, "Every last one of us is born of woman through a precious event that weds risk, pain and love in a melange that _could_ make us more than the sums of our humanity, and we kick it into the dirt like it was last week's refuse. HOW can we appeal to the angels of their better natures and make them stop?"

 

And the ugly beat goes on, like creeps rising from the swamp to beat on the lids of garbage cans of human depravity.

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Jusey1
16 minutes ago, FictoCannibal. said:

No but we live in a culture where it's okay for a man to tell women they should be happy men like their bodies, when said women are discussing how uncomfortable catcalling makes them. In this culture, said man will even become annoyed when everyone tries to explain to him why he is wrong in suggesting that women should 'lighten up' about the catcalling issue. He'll feel justified in the fact that he is normalizing this disgusting predatory behavior.

 

4 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

Catcalling is a very rude sexual whistle that should end... .... We already agreed that catcalling is wrong. WHY ARE WE STILL BRINGING THIS UP?!?!

On 10/11/2018 at 8:23 PM, Jusey1 said:

Why are we arguing about catcall here? I'm talking about actual compliments here. I already agreed with you guys that catcalling is flat-out rude and shouldn't be done. Also, obviously sexual comments are flat-out rude as well and shouldn't be done in public. Those kind of people should just go fuck right off for being so rude toward someone in public.

Keep lying to yourself...
 

22 minutes ago, FictoCannibal. said:

You clearly haven't been reading the actual experiences with catcalling women here have shared, or if you have read them you are completely ignoring them. It's rarely just a comment, and the actions and words used are intentionally designed to make the female whom the words/actions are directed at feel scared, dirty, small, and vulnerable. That's just a fact. It's what catcalling is. You seem to be thinking we are talking about telling a lady she has nice hair, but that's not what we're talking about. Here's an example of how catcalling is different from saying 'Hey, cool hair!' (which is a genuine compliment a guy could direct at a member of either sex without it being weird).

Basically, we're on the same page and same side this whole time and you're just fighting with me for no real reason? *Facepalm*

 

24 minutes ago, FictoCannibal. said:

Guy: You've got nice hair

Lady: Ignores him

Guy: Hey, I'm talking to you (starts following her as she keeps walking)

Lady: keeps ignoring him

Guy: What's the matter babe, got a stick up your arse? I can fix that for you honey

Lady: walks faster to get away from him

Guy: Hey cmmon honey, I just want to get to know you a little, loosen up that arse a bit..

Lady: dodges off among a group of people so he can't keep following her

Guy: (yells) You're a stuck up slut anyway, no one would want to fuck you you tight-arse c*nt!!

The official written definition of catcalling is as follow: "make a whistle, shout, or comment of a sexual nature to a woman passing by."

So, the first comment "You've got nice hair!" is what I am defending. People should be free to make compliments like that. That is what I've been saying this whole entire time and I've seen people go nuts and crazy over just that part! I've seen people overreact to JUST THAT PART! It doesn't get bad at all like the rest of your example, which does become both stalking and a catcall... Which, again, as I QUOTED MYSELF... I am fucking against...

*Facepalm*

30 minutes ago, FictoCannibal. said:

If you keep trying to justify it or normalize it, you're only proving the fact that we live in a culture where this is a massive issue (and this isn't the only culture which has an issue with it). Your attitude is part of what makes this a 'rape culture' because you're suggesting the woman should be happy about predatory advances

4 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

Catcalling is a very rude sexual whistle that should end... .... We already agreed that catcalling is wrong. WHY ARE WE STILL BRINGING THIS UP?!?!

On 10/11/2018 at 8:23 PM, Jusey1 said:

Why are we arguing about catcall here? I'm talking about actual compliments here. I already agreed with you guys that catcalling is flat-out rude and shouldn't be done. Also, obviously sexual comments are flat-out rude as well and shouldn't be done in public. Those kind of people should just go fuck right off for being so rude toward someone in public.

Keep lying to yourself, it'll make you feel better someday.

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ryn2
17 minutes ago, Jusey1 said:

So, the first comment "You've got nice hair!" is what I am defending. People should be free to make compliments like that.

Here’s where I’m confused.  Isn’t the point of a genuine compliment to brighten the recipient’s day?

 

Women (among others) are telling you that receiving comments like “you’ve got nice hair” called out in public by strangers does not brighten their days.  In fact, they’re telling you, even comments like that leave them feeling uncomfortable.

 

Regardless of whether or not you’re free to make them, why would you want to once you’ve been told they accomplish the opposite of what you’re ostensibly intending?

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FictoCannibal.
34 minutes ago, Jusey1 said:

So, the first comment "You've got nice hair!" is what I am defending.

And we are clearly not talking about a basic compliment between friends or whatever, which you well know by now, yet you keep arguing with us. How hard is it just to say 'yeah I can see how that would be really awful, I was just talking about a very basic compliment from a stranger even though yeah I can see how even that could be taken badly given how terribly some catcallers behave'. We've also clearly explained that one never knows when a basic compliment is actually going to turn into a more frightening experience, hence why even a guy saying 'hey nice hair' can for some people give them a pang of fear and make them feel unsafe. These more extreme catcalling episodes we are talking about are very, very common. They're everyday experiences for many women. Imagine knowing you might have to experience that literally every time you leave your house to walk to work or school or whatever.  And then being told by a guy 'hey you should just be happy they like your body, it's only a compliment'. You must be able to comprehend why people in this thread have become angry and frustrated at you? We've said repeatedly that for many of us, even the compliment from a random stranger is over-stepping the line because one never knows if it's going to turn nasty which is something many women have to experience daily as they go about their lives.

 

Regarding the definition, 'catcalling' is the only word around that covers the behaviour we are talking about. It's street sexual harassment, but 'catcalling' is a much quicker way to sum the behaviour up.

 

34 minutes ago, Jusey1 said:

People should be free to make compliments like that.

And people have been explaining that said compliments can make them incredibly uncomfortable based on many experiences they themselves have already had. The fact is, if the behaviour is distressing for someone and they say repeatedly that they don't like or want it, why would you insist others are allowed to continue doing it? It makes no logical sense.

 

 

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Anthraxite_Vampreza
35 minutes ago, Jusey1 said:

Keep lying to yourself, it'll make you feel better someday.

We're the ones who experience it but you know better than us. Where have I heard that before...?

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Vincent Van Schmo

I think it's worth noting that ordinary men don't tend to shout compliments about a female stranger's appearance in public.  While Jusey is right that, on the surface, words are just words, we have to factor in intent as well, and Ficto is right that the intent is some form of social manipulation to be gross (which we can glean because ordinary men don't tend to act like that).

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Vincent Van Schmo
1 hour ago, Jusey1 said:

 

Keep lying to yourself, it'll make you feel better someday.

I am pretty sure Ficto is not a liar, to herself or to anyone.  This kind of comment is unhelpful.

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Jusey1
52 minutes ago, Vincent Van Schmo said:

I am pretty sure Ficto is not a liar, to herself or to anyone.  This kind of comment is unhelpful.

They literally just lied about me... Did you not read the context?

 

2 hours ago, Anthraxite_Vampreza said:

We're the ones who experience it but you know better than us. Where have I heard that before...?

I am completely confused on what the flying muffin you are talking about here. Did you not read the context of what was being discussed and why I called out a liar?

 

2 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

And people have been explaining that said compliments can make them incredibly uncomfortable based on many experiences they themselves have already had. The fact is, if the behaviour is distressing for someone and they say repeatedly that they don't like or want it, why would you insist others are allowed to continue doing it? It makes no logical sense.

Because, as I said before, the problem is that people has gotten so paranoid that they're lashing out on genuine nice and good hearted human beings that are complimenting them... I already explained this several times and it keeps going above your head, it feels like.

 

I'm not saying anything to defend catcallers. I'm not saying anything to support those kind of assholes and those assoholic doings, and we ALL HERE AGREED ON THAT!!! That is a thing we are all agreed on. That kind of public behavior is NOT WELCOMED. HOWEVER, what I am saying is that it is still up to the individual to live in of every stranger just because of the possibility of them becoming a potential threat, a very slim possibility in most situations let alone that. I can understand in SOME living conditions, cities, etc that the chance is much much higher, especially based on the town's community. BUT I am suggesting is that it's better to accept those good hearted compliments by people with good intentions. There is no reason to live in fear because of the POSSIBILITY that something bad might happen.

Do I need to repeat myself? I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT NORMALIZING CAT CALLING BULLSHIT. I AM NOT DEFENDING THOSE DISGUSTING PERVERTS AND POTENTIAL BAD PEOPLE.  I AM NOT DEFENDING ANYONE OF THAT SORT.

 

I am merely suggesting the idea to be open minded and open to the idea that NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO FUCKING RAPE YOU AND MURDER YOU!! This is why I consider this whole entire movement OVERDOING, cause that what it feels like. It feels like people in the movement and even you right now are afraid of EVERYONE, even if they're just being kind hearted and good! YES I understand the fear itself, I understand the reasoning behind. I understand why catcaller are terrible people and we all here agreed on that SEVERAL FUCKING TIMES. The only reason why we are arguing is because I DARED to suggest the idea that NOT EVERYONE has ill intention and maybe... JUST MAYBE... You don't need to live in fear.

 

I'm sorry if I sound rude or harsh in this post because it's driving me nuts on how many times you guys seem to skip over everything I am saying and then expect the worse out of me, then begin lying about me, and then think I'm a terrible person for pointing out the lies you made, which are purely on accident I get that but you still lied... Okay? I'm just getting very frustrated that no one here seems to read and understand the actual context of what I am saying and just wants to force the whole "Catcallers are bad" thing over and over and over and over again when I ALREADY AGREED with you guys on that front. We are in agreement about that terribly fucking shit...

I'm sorry again if I do sound harsh... I'm just so frustrated that people are completely missing the point of what I am saying and just assuming stuff for no good reason... I'm just asking in my head over and over and over again "Wtf are you talking about? I never mention anything about siding with disgusting catcallers!" and it just keeps getting banged and banged and banged again... What's the phrase? Beating a dead horse or something like that?

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Vincent Van Schmo
3 minutes ago, Jusey1 said:

They literally just lied about me... Did you not read the context?

 

It's more likely that a miscommunication/confusion occurred.  That is pretty common in a forum.

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Jusey1
6 minutes ago, Vincent Van Schmo said:

It's more likely that a miscommunication/confusion occurred.  That is pretty common in a forum.

Agreed. A lie on accident type of dealing.

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FictoCannibal.
6 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

Agreed. A lie on accident type of dealing.

You are clearly misreading myself and everyone else who has responded to you. We are saying that as many find even the 'harmless compliments' slightly jarring (as one never knows when it's going to escalate) then no, men shouldn't have the right to walk around and compliment random ladies on the street even if a basic, nice, compliment is literally their only intent. If that makes women uncomfortable (as many women here have expressed it does) then those men should just not do it. You don't need to walk up to a random woman and say 'hey, I love your dress', even if that's literally ALL you want to say. It makes many women uncomfortable due to many experiences with that kind of comment which have turned into something nasty (even if that's not what this man is intending), so men should just not do it. How hard is it to appreciate the woman's dress from afar without having to walk up and say it to her face?

 

6 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

I am merely suggesting the idea to be open minded and open to the idea that NOT EVERYONE WANTS TO FUCKING RAPE YOU AND MURDER YOU!! 

And we are well aware of that. We were well aware of it before you repeated yourself 20 times (as a result of the fact that you are refusing to read what we are actually saying).

 

6 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

This is why I consider this whole entire movement OVERDOING, cause that what it feels like. It feels like people in the movement and even you right now are afraid of EVERYONE, even if they're just being kind hearted and good! YES I understand the fear itself, I understand the reasoning behind. I understand why catcaller are terrible people and we all here agreed on that SEVERAL FUCKING TIMES. The only reason why we are arguing is because I DARED to suggest the idea that NOT EVERYONE has ill intention and maybe... JUST MAYBE... You don't need to live in fear.

The fact is that a basic compliment turns into harassment very commonly for your average women which is why we get that pang of discomfort even when a man's intent is totally innocent. And we have the right, therefore, to say that even the most innocent of compliments from a stranger is unwelcome as it makes us uncomfortable Y_Y. Just appreciate the damn dress, or the hair, or the legs, or whatever, from afar. If she's in a bar clearly looking to meet people, by all means, try to have a chat with her. But if she's walking down the damn street minding her own business, keep the damn compliments to yourself, even if your intent is completely harmless. We are saying we don't like it. We are saying it makes us uncomfortable because of the amount of times innocent-seeming compliments do turn nasty. We have very good reason to feel this way. What we took offense at was you telling us we should be happy about it when we have made it very clear how we feel (yes, even about the innocent compliments).

 

6 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

even if they're just being kind hearted and good!

Just to clarify, what we are all saying is that someone can be kind-hearted and good by keeping their compliment, no matter how innocent, to themselves. We don't need it and don't want it. It might make the complimenter feel good to give a pretty lady a compliment, but there's a very high chance the lady herself just doesn't want to hear the damn compliment, no matter how innocent. It's kinder to leave her alone so she can go happily about her day without needing to be made aware of the fact that men are gawping at her (which your compliment, no matter how innocent, will surely imply). Appreciate from a distance. Leave the lady be.

 

6 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

Agreed. A lie on accident type of dealing.

You also are defining 'lying' incorrectly but that's a different topic.

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Sally
14 hours ago, The Dryad said:

I agree, but it's still extremely sad that in 2018, we still have to fight against ignorance and hatred that causes this world to be unsafe, you'd think it would be common knowledge how to live decently without disrupting other people's lives.

 

We have had to live that way since we came out of the caves.  It may be sad but it's reality, because we're still the same creatures.  

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Anthraxite_Vampreza

@Jusey1 If you actually gave a fuck about how we felt you would just accept that it makes us uncomfortable and agree it should stop, but you seem far more interested in men being able to feel better about themselves, and the infamous 'free speech' excuse. Whether it fits your worldview or not, street 'compliments' scare the shit out of many of us; why the fuck are you defending that?

 

In case it's not clear: Intent is irrelevant, it's making people uncomfortable and scared. Just stop.

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Jusey1
6 hours ago, Anthraxite_Vampreza said:

@Jusey1  but you seem far more interested in men being able to feel better about themselves,

Except that's not what I am saying... So since ye' like to skip the actual context and meaning of my posts, I should just stop responding but I'm a stubborn idiot...

 

12 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

You are clearly misreading myself and everyone else who has responded to you. We are saying that as many find even the 'harmless compliments' slightly jarring (as one never knows when it's going to escalate) then no, men shouldn't have the right to walk around and compliment random ladies on the street even if a basic, nice, compliment is literally their only intent. If that makes women uncomfortable (as many women here have expressed it does) then those men should just not do it...

I'm responding this to one last time to hopefully get what I am saying CLEAR to you...

 

I already know. I already understand exactly what you are saying. The problem is that my argument is a COUNTER-ARGUMENT to what you've been saying this whole entire time, but you keep saying the same thing on repeat despite me ALREADY AGREEING and UNDERSTANDING exactly what you are saying. I just made the counter-argument of "Instead of being afraid of everybody, just be open to compliments and allow yourself be more positive while still being aware of the potential dangers."

 

I said this many many times over and over again. All you've been doing is sticking to the original topic at hand, which I completely understand is a problem for EVERYONE (not just females). This is why context is very important and why I feel like no one is reading the context of what I am saying... Which is basically goes down "Live your life more happily and don't worry about the potential dangers and negative thoughts so much." Which I think is a basic idea that anyone should be able to understand and agree with to some sort of degree, yet all you cared about is what you want without taking a step back and think about how much of a negative impact you might be having on yourself due to these fears and thoughts, which I AGREE WITH YOU on WHY THEY ARE THERE... I'm just saying that there are better solutions to those negative feelings then just ignoring everyone around you and sticking to yourself.

 

12 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

We

You don't speak for anyone but yourself, and the others here that agrees with you.

 

12 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

You don't need to walk up to a random woman

I never suggest anything about walking up to someone. Ever. I compliment people all the time just because I was walking by, or vice versa. Walking up to someone is completely unnecessary, unless you want to start a conversation and if you do... Then you're probably at a club or some sort of social gathering that was made for that sort of thing...

 

And there. I'm done with this. We obviously disagree with each other when it comes to good people being just nice and friendly, and I'm done. At this rate, I feel like I'm going to get hated on because I hold the door open for everyone that is exiting or coming inside of a public place because I didn't ask for their consent or something like that... So, I'm done. Nothing is going to happen because ye' all are too paranoid and scared (for a reason that I do understand) while I'm too much of a positive human being who hates living in paranoia... Nothing is ever gonna happen and nothing is ever gonna change about us because we are very set in our ways...

 

I'm probably too nice for my own good and that makes people like you have bad assumptions of me that aren't true, which kept happening in this discussion and is just making me facepalm, and you all are just too focus on the "what if" side of the situation rather than opening up to the idea I am trying to present this whole entire time... So yes, hate me all you want. I don't care. This is just stupid to even argue over because we just have two vastly different opinions on living life that has an effect on this situation which we are speaking about.

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ryn2
10 minutes ago, Jusey1 said:

you all are just too focus on the "what if" side of the situation rather than opening up to the idea I am trying to present this whole entire time..

But that’s the whole point.  Even when we do enjoy life and remain positive, even if we ignore mildly escalating behavior, even if we’re in the small majority (or even minority) who have never been victims of anything... we still don’t like it.  It’s not all about what-iffing.  We don’t like it on its own merits.  We don’t like blatent catcalling.  We don’t like compliments from strangers walking by.  If you’re really doing it for the women you’re being nice to, and yet women are telling you that it doesn’t actually read as nice and they’d rather you didn’t... why continue?  If you’re not doing it for yourself and recipients don’t like it, what’s the point?

 

Of course, if you live in a small town and everyone compliments everyone all the time and you have it on good authority the local women appreciate it, good for you and by all means continue.

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Calligraphette_Coe
1 hour ago, Jusey1 said:

 

I'm probably too nice for my own good and that makes people like you have bad assumptions of me that aren't true, which kept happening in this discussion and is just making me facepalm, and you all are just too focus on the "what if" side of the situation rather than opening up to the idea I am trying to present this whole entire time... So yes, hate me all you want. I don't care. This is just stupid to even argue over because we just have two vastly different opinions on living life that has an effect on this situation which we are speaking about.

But..but....but.... you're essentially invalidating the people you're disagreeing with, and that almost always causes the convo to go south. 

 

Could we try another spin on this? By putting you in a perhaps parallel but different position vis-a-vis compliments?

 

There you are at work, with a new boss who you don't know at all, who doesn't know your work, who only knows your title, job description and job responsibilities. You don't exactly hit it off well, and you feel a little invalidated by the assignments she gives you. 

 

All of sudden, she starts complimenting you. In fact, lays it on pretty thick. Aren't you getting just a little suspicious? Like, "Okay, what shit job does she need done now?"

 

i get this all the time.  I live in 3D space as an androgynous person and I'm pretty sure I'm thought of as a pretty nelly gay guy with really diverse skills. And sometimes I get into these situations- a woman needs a computer fixed but is retired and on a fixed income? So I do the work, and get it repaired by just reloading the operating system. That takes a while to do and save her data. And she starts telling me I'm the greatest engineer since Tesla. All this, of course, before telling me that she can't afford to pay me the going rate for an on-site home service call. So I just smile and say 'Give me $10 for the USB drive, I realize yada,yada, yada." So then she kinda rushes me out the door after she gives me the $10. I"m used to that, too. I've come to realize most of the conservative majority of people around here are uncomfortable with the contradiction, and I don't get particularly wounded by it anymore.

 

But it sometimes _does_ feel like 'Wam, Bam, thank you, Ma'am" on another level. And the compliments are the come-on.

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FictoCannibal.
3 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

You don't speak for anyone but yourself, and the others here that agrees with you.

Yes that's who I meant by 'we', I've been trying to clarify the stance of all of us here responding to you. Though of course most of us know other females who have the same feelings as us regarding 'compliments'.

 

3 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

, I feel like I'm going to get hated on because I hold the door open for everyone that is exiting or coming inside of a public place because I didn't ask for their consent or something like that.

 I hold the door open for anyone who is behind me too, just because that's polite. That's very different than walking past a stranger on the street and making  a comment that makes it clear you've been gawping at them. Even I (as a female) very rarely give other women compliments as I don't want to piss them off or make them uncomfortable. Last woman I gave a compliment to (because she had electric blue hair which was awesome) was a lady at the coffee shop who has served me coffee quite a few times, so we at least know each other by face. She'd changed her hair and I said it looks great, paid for my coffee and left. If that was the first time she'd served me though I would have left it, because she's a total stranger and may be weirded out by me complimenting her.

 

3 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

the situation rather than opening up to the idea I am trying to present this whole entire time... So yes, hate me all you want. I don't care. This is just stupid to even argue over because we just have two vastly different opinions on living life that has an effect on this situation which we are speaking about.

 

We've told you over and over we don't like being complimented by random strangers. Many, many women don't like it (even if they smile politely and say thanks they're still often thinking 'just fuck off' in their heads). Yet instead of conceding that fact, you're saying we have a  difference of opinion as though we are ALL talking about the mere act of complimenting strangers, and giving out opinions on the act - that would be a difference of opinion. But it's not a difference of opinion when a group of people is saying the don't personally like receiving something and you're insisting they're wrong for not enjoying it. That's very different than a difference of opinion. That's you trying to force something onto people who are saying they don't like or want it.

 

You know what this convo is reminding me of? Anal sex. It's like if we were talking about anal sex and a group of women were like 'I actually really don't like it, every time I've had it it feels really uncomfortable down there, I just don't like it and won't have it again' then a man is like 'um living your life in fear won't get you anywhere. It could be amazing next time you have it, you never actually KNOW it's going to hurt every individual time. You're all wrong for not wanting it just because you've had a few uncomfortable experiences. It's really actually very nice' but the guy is talking about GIVING anal and the girls are talking about receiving. We're talking about two completely different aspects of anal sex and the girls know for a fact they don't like it so why not just leave it at that? No need to keep banging on about how you're all just having a difference of opinion but really, anal is amazing and all the girls saying they don't like it are just living their lives in fear expecting the worst because they never know if it's going to be uncomfortable every individual time. The fact is, they just don't like the damn anal. We just don't like receiving the damn compliments from strangers, most women don't. You can't force us to like or want something and that's not a difference of opinion, it's us explaining how something makes us feel when it happens to us. Insisting we start liking it is kind of like insisting girls start liking anal. Sure some do. But if someone has clearly expressed the fact that they don't like it, just leave it at that. Even if you do secretly plan on continuing to compliment random women, you don't have to insist to others (who have clearly expressed they just don't like it)

 that there's practically something wrong with them for not wanting it, like they're

 not living their lives 'the best way possible' because receiving compliments from strangers makes them uncomfortable. What even??

 

You'll never know what it's like to be the center of male attention, as many women are. We fucking KNOW men are looking at us, it's a fact we can't escape. We honestly don't need to be reminded of it by some random guy on the street saying he thinks we look hot or whatever. We honestly just ..don't..want.. it. Most women don't. 

 

Your blatant disregard for our personal feelings on this matter though, along with your insistence on the fact that there's practically something wrong with us for not liking it, is really quite telling. I will say that much.

 

 

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uhtred
On 10/12/2018 at 6:51 PM, ryn2 said:

Here’s where I’m confused.  Isn’t the point of a genuine compliment to brighten the recipient’s day?

 

Women (among others) are telling you that receiving comments like “you’ve got nice hair” called out in public by strangers does not brighten their days.  In fact, they’re telling you, even comments like that leave them feeling uncomfortable.

 

Regardless of whether or not you’re free to make them, why would you want to once you’ve been told they accomplish the opposite of what you’re ostensibly intending?

Its very subtle and situation dependent.  Anyone who isn't good at reading people's reactions, body language etc should *not* make random compliments that might be misinterpreted. 

 

Compliments *can* make people feel uncomfortable. A compliment that it out of the blue can feel like an insult, or even a threat.  Imagine you are walking in an iffy area of town at night, and pass a group of young men hanging out.  One says "nice watch".      Do you take it as a compliment?  Or do you feel threatened by what might be a street gang? 

 

I think that is the situation women can find themselves in.  It might be a compliment, or it might be a lead-in to harassment or assault?  How should she react?  If she reacts in a positive way, is she leading him on?  If she reacts negatively will that prompt a "what, are you too good for us, you stuckup....." sort of next stage. 

 

In a different situations compliments are OK.  If you are already talking to someone, and in a non-threatening environment, then a comment on your watch is fine.  So in similar situations is a comment on a womans appearance - UNLESS of course you are in a situation where this might be taken as discriminatory, as opposed to harassing. (a different but also major problem).

 

Simplest thing to do:  Make compliments real, only after you are talking to someone, and make them about things that are actually important, not their appearance.  

 

 

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chandrakirti

IMHO it sounds innocuous enough to compliment someone on their hair....if you actually know them. Shouting it to some random person on the street though....well I think that person has every right to blank the comment and walk on should they wish, without further interference.

To expect a response indicates some level of neediness/ self centredness to start with.

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ryn2
5 hours ago, uhtred said:

Simplest thing to do:  Make compliments real, only after you are talking to someone, and make them about things that are actually important, not their appearance.  

Yep.

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Sally
14 hours ago, uhtred said:

Its very subtle and situation dependent.  Anyone who isn't good at reading people's reactions, body language etc should *not* make random compliments that might be misinterpreted. 

 

And since someone who isn't good at reading people's reactions generally doesn't know they aren't, it's best to just NOT make random compliments.  

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Aimie

I already was harassed in the street and I personally think that it's better when you’re a man to take care about what you'll say when you want to compliment a woman. I think that if you’re a man who wants to compliment another man there is in this case less danger of misinterpretation because the most part of catcall are from men to wemen; so you objectively have less chances to afraid the person which you want to compliment.
But if you're a man and if you really want to compliment a woman, because (for example) you find her wonderful and you absolutely want to speak a little with her to let her know, it’s better in my mind to before saying her something like "I don't want to seduce you" or "I don't have bad intentions”, and add the compliment after it in order that she stays quiet and relaxed. I find it a little sad but if wemen are so stressed and nervous in the street there necessarily is a reason. I’m the first girl open to receive some of compliments from good intentioned men but I’m still anxious when I walk in the street – worse when it’s the night.

 

On 10/13/2018 at 8:19 PM, ryn2 said:

Of course, if you live in a small town and everyone compliments everyone all the time and you have it on good authority the local women appreciate it, good for you and by all means continue.

I also think that the sensation to be harassed in the street can be variable in function of where you’re living. I lived in a village during a time and in cities during other periods and it totally made a change. I completely was more afraid and mistrustful in cities.

 

On 10/13/2018 at 2:25 AM, Jusey1 said:

I'm using the same definition and by that definition. We do not live in a rape culture. We, as a society and the United State country, do not normalize sexual assault and abuse. Or even trivializes it, assuming you are using the right definition of trivialization. Hell, sexual assault and abuse is flat-out illegal. A crime. The person in question can be taken to jail if the accusations are correct...

I think that there are two sides. In one side there are the laws who recognize it, and on the other hand there are an important part of men who trivialize it while for example catcalling. In other worlds, I think that we officially recognize rape and abuse but we officiously belittle it. I don’t want to tell that all men are thinking like that. I don’t want to tell that rape culture is everywhere too. But it exists. Even in Police there are men who say that some wemen are lying when they speak about their rape or abuse story; or sometimes they say that they should take care about what they sent like signals. That is rape culture too and it’s also actually existent. There are people in police who belittle rape and assaults, there are people on the web who belittle it (with bad commentaries about #MeToo stories) and there are people in the street who belittle that too (while catcalling for example). Fortunately I don’t think that all men are thinking and living in this way but we cannot deny it exists because we have a lot of testimonies about.

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