AspieAlly613

Missing Perspective On #MeToo and sexual harassment in general

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AspieAlly613

As the prevalence of sexual harassment is finally getting some of the attention it deserves, one thing has bothered me about the cultural reaction.

 

While the message I've been trying to get out (sometimes explicitly) the message "Your sexual urges should not affect anyone else, except, sometimes, your closest of friends."

 

I noticed that hardly anyone else out there seems to feel the same way, or at least hardly anyone else is expressing it.  

 

Am I wrong that this is a relevant message in the context of sexual harassment?

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Aebt

Maybe what I am about to say is completely wrong, as I only within the past few months found out that most people experience sexual urges/desire, so take what I say regarding this topic with a grain of salt.

 

My feelings have usually been "I don't care about what you do with sexual urges/desires as long as you don't harm anyone and you received consent."

 

If you received consent and no harm was caused during an encounter, than that is okay.

If you received consent but then did cause harm during an encounter, than that is bad.

If you had not received consent but no harm was caused during an encounter, than that is bad.

If you had not received consent and caused harm during an encounter, than that is very bad.

 

I am not disagreeing with you, I think you almost came upon a similar idea, I do take issue with the

28 minutes ago, AspieAlly613 said:

except, sometimes, your closest of friends.

part because I don't care if you acted upon sexual urges/desires with a random stranger, as long as both (or however many parties were involved) gave consent and no harm was caused.

 

28 minutes ago, AspieAlly613 said:

I noticed that hardly anyone else out there seems to feel the same way, or at least hardly anyone else is expressing it.  

Interesting you feel that way because many (though sadly not all) whom I have talked to regarding the subject feel if not identical to you at least aligned with you on the subject.

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AspieAlly613
21 minutes ago, Aebt said:

Interesting you feel that way because many (though sadly not all) whom I have talked to regarding the subject feel if not identical to you at least aligned with you on the subject.

Where I find myself differing from most of the people in my (upper-class, politically liberal, urban/suburban Northeastern United States) circles can be exemplified by the difference in reactions to the following statement:

 

"It's okay to be a Pick-Up-Artist (TM) as long as you can appropriately distinguish your successes from your failures."

 

Most people seem to agree with the statement (or at least, don't contradict it directly,) while my response to that statement would be "No, you should not be a Pick-Up-Artist (TM) to begin with."

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Tunes

I have no idea what a Pick-Up-Artist (TM) is. And honestly, I'm not entirely sure how your response is different than Aebt's comment. And I have no idea why your close friends would have anything more to do with your sexuality (unless you are in a sexual relationship with them or you are the type of people that just talk about literally everything). 

 

My best guess (tell me if I'm wrong) is that you mean no one should be allowed to ask other people if they want a sexual encounter. In which case, you should always be allowed to ask (because otherwise how do you know? One night stands don't usually happen with close friends, after all). But consent should always be given and if consent is not given, then they should drop it. And I think most people see it this way as well. 

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FictoCannibal.
2 hours ago, AspieAlly613 said:

Most people seem to agree with the statement (or at least, don't contradict it directly,) while my response to that statement would be "No, you should not be a Pick-Up-Artist (TM) to begin with."

What exactly are you saying? Do you mean people shouldn't seek out consensual sex with strangers because they may end up getting accused of rape? I would just hope both parties can be responsible and mature enough to show each other respect, but you never know when one person is going to take advantage (either one person takes the sex too far without consent, or the other person may accuse you of rape afterwards which I do know happens rarely sadly). In these sorts of situations, I can see why one is so much better off only having sexual encounters with people one knows well, but at the same time as long as both people are fully aware of the risks of having sex with strangers then they should be allowed to make their own decisions.

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Anthraxite_Vampreza

People should be allowed to ask (as long as morally appropriate, no kiddies) whoever they want; it's their reaction if turned down that's the key. Accept it graciously and it's all good, whine about how you are owed attention, or ignore their lack of consent, and you're a dickhead of varying calibres.

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gisiebob
2 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

What exactly are you saying? Do you mean people shouldn't seek out consensual sex with strangers because they may end up getting accused of rape? I would just hope both parties can be responsible and mature enough to show each other respect, but you never know when one person is going to take advantage (either one person takes the sex too far without consent, or the other person may accuse you of rape afterwards which I do know happens rarely sadly). In these sorts of situations, I can see why one is so much better off only having sexual encounters with people one knows well, but at the same time as long as both people are fully aware of the risks of having sex with strangers then they should be allowed to make their own decisions.

a pick up artist is someone who trains to dehumanize people as 'marks', subvert their target's emotions and con them into thinking the artist is someone that they are not.

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FictoCannibal.
59 minutes ago, gisiebob said:

a pick up artist is someone who trains to dehumanize people as 'marks', subvert their target's emotions and con them into thinking the artist is someone that they are not.

Oh I wasn't the one asking what a pick up artist is, I was responding to the topic in general wondering if the OP meant he doesn't think strangers should have consensual sex? and instead stick to sex with friends?

 

Also my general idea of pick up artists is people (usually the term is attributed to men but women do it too) who are just really good at getting a lay out of someone. They know all the right lines to get someone into bed with them. Lots of people are aware of the whole pick up artist persona, the behavior, the lines they use etc, but plenty still don't mind being taken to bed by one if they're into casual sex. Just depends on the people involved :)

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Aebt
7 hours ago, AspieAlly613 said:

my response to that statement would be "No, you should not be a Pick-Up-Artist (TM) to begin with."

What do you have against Pick-Up-Artists? If all concerned parties give consent and no harm is caused by such an encounter. I understand if you feel morally about this, for example saying that it is morally wrong to have sex with someone you don't know very well, but overall if it doesn't effect your life and all parties agree and cause no harm why does it matter?

 

I personally would never thought about having sex with a random person (or anyone for that matter), but if someone wants to, consent is given, and no harm caused; why does it matter?

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The Dryad

I think, if you're going to participate in the sexual culture we have then, you have to be respectful of other people's needs and wants- whatever those happen to be, end of story. There's no need to say that people can't have consensual random- stranger sex, some people prefer not ever seeing their partners again, and do not see their friends in a sexual manner. That's like saying that people who have random affairs can't control themselves and have bad intentions- there are people around you, who you have probably known your whole life, that are predators, and there are complete strangers who will take you in and house you, the idea of stranger danger is a bit of a lie.

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AspieAlly613

There's a reason I satirically added the (TM) modifier.  I was hoping that people unfamiliar with the term and the culture of people who distinguish between "Average Frustrated Chumps (TM)" and "Pick Up Artists (TM)" would realize that the latter is a keyword and look it up for more information do that I could be lazy and not need to explain it myself, but it didn't work.

 

I accidentally learned about this in undergrad, when I attended a few meetings of "social skills club" which turned out to be just a Pick-Up Artist training club.  That's why I stopped going.  I'll reiterate some of the tricks we were taught to provide some context.

 

--Women are usually attracted to dominant men. As such, it's best not to let yourself be manipulated.  So, when you're answering the "getting to know you questions," don't just give the straightforward answers.  For example, you can answer "how old are you?" with "I can gather you drinks if you'really not old enough, if that's what you mean."

 

--If you and another guy are after the same girl, remember that unexpected situations lead people to be more suggestive for about a second.  You can use that to try to get him out of the picture.

 

--When you ask a girl to take any "next step" such as having sex, going to your apartment making it easier for you to ask her for sex, leaving the club to go to a diner so that you'll be alone and you won't have to compete with other guys for her, etc, phrase the suggestion in a way that if she says no, you can make a similar suggestion shortly afterward for her to reconsider.  Each time you ask a new question, you're giving yourself another opportunity for her to say "yes."  

 

I'm told that these tips and others are discussed in great detail in the book "The Game," and are in fairly common practice.  While I've heard guys talk about wanting to be more successful with women, I haven't heard them explicitly add in the modifier "without resorting to unethical, underhanded, manipulative tactics."  Obviously, this is less at play in stories like that AL Franken scandal than stories like the Aziz Ansari scandal.

 

Hopefully, this gives a better sense of exactly which sex-seeking behavior's I consider to be problematic and which I don't.

 

 

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Alejandrogynous

I'm confused. Are you saying that people should only persue close friends for sexual relations, or else they must be employing Pick-Up Artist tactics, which you consider to be problematic? 

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FictoCannibal.
8 hours ago, Alejandrogynous said:

I'm confused. Are you saying that people should only persue close friends for sexual relations, or else they must be employing Pick-Up Artist tactics, which you consider to be problematic? 

I'm still waiting for an answer to my questions too lol. We need clarification as to what you're actually saying @AspieAlly613..not so much the definition of pickup artist. We want to understand what it is you're saying about them in comparison to people who only have sex with close friends?? :)

 

8 hours ago, AspieAlly613 said:

 So, when you're answering the "getting to know you questions," don't just give the straightforward answers.  For example, you can answer "how old are you?" with "I can gather you drinks if you'really not old enough, if that's what you mean."

 

If a guy (or girl) wants to employ such tactics as you've listed I see no issue as long as everyone involved is fully consenting to the sex of course. They won't work on me though haha I find that kind of thing a real turn off. If I ask your age I wanna know your age and if you're going to dance about it I just don't have time for you. BYE!! 😛

 

8 hours ago, AspieAlly613 said:

Women are usually attracted to dominant men.

This has been going around a fair bit on AVEN recently and I need to say again, only SOME woman are attracted to dominant men of the type being discussed here, and those are the sorts of women who these tactics will work on. Such women usually have self-esteem issues which is how they are so easily manipulated. However they still want the sex and happily go to bed with the guy sooo... Who are we do judge? 😮

 

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Perspektiv
26 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

Such women usually have self-esteem issues which is how they are so easily manipulated.

Exactly.

 

Negging, where a man just picks apart a woman's confidence under guise humor (when in fact, are thinly veiled insults, to chisel away her confidence), relies heavily on a woman having serious self-esteem issues (or high levels of insecurities which these expose, for him to pick apart).

 

Its the law of the 3 compliments, and one thinly veiled insult (or basically a varying ratio, where there is a push and pull cycle which keeps her off balance, and always questioning herself), which is crafted to get a woman who is out of your league to willfully lower her confidence to match yours. Its highly effective. Its also part of the laws of attraction. You flip tables on her, and make her question if she's good enough for you.

 

All the women I have dated who are highly confident and secure in who they are, would call you out on that kind of bullshit.

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Aebt

I understand that there are certain people who do manipulate their way into sex, and even if consent was given and no harmed caused it is a nasty thing to do. However, if you don't manipulate people, receive consent, and cause no harm I don't think it matters whether you have sex with your best friend or a random person you meet on the Subway.

 

Those tips though, if I was female, I don't think they are very convincing. Even as a male (granted, an asexual one) I don't find them convincing.

 

9 hours ago, AspieAlly613 said:

While I've heard guys talk about wanting to be more successful with women, I haven't heard them explicitly add in the modifier "without resorting to unethical, underhanded, manipulative tactics."

WOW, those must be horrible guys. Even if not stated, where I live it is usually implied.

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Tunes
12 hours ago, AspieAlly613 said:

There's a reason I satirically added the (TM) modifier.  I was hoping that people unfamiliar with the term and the culture of people who distinguish between "Average Frustrated Chumps (TM)" and "Pick Up Artists (TM)" would realize that the latter is a keyword and look it up for more information do that I could be lazy and not need to explain it myself, but it didn't work.

Sorry; I'm lazy, too. :P But thanks for clarifying!

 

12 hours ago, AspieAlly613 said:

--Women are usually attracted to dominant men.

This is apparently part of something called the red pill movement - they essentially believe that being a dick is the best way to attract girls and they encourage guys to stop listening to what girls say they want and just always assume that they want the biggest dickhead in the room. At least, that's what I gather from listening to them talk. It's irritating at best and pathetic at worst, but I wouldn't say people can't believe it. They can believe whatever they want and act on it if they believe it will work. Again, as long as they don't force anything they can be as dumb and thickheaded as they want. 

 

12 hours ago, AspieAlly613 said:

So, when you're answering the "getting to know you questions," don't just give the straightforward answers.  For example, you can answer "how old are you?" with "I can gather you drinks if you'really not old enough, if that's what you mean."

I don't see a moral problem with this. It's not like the woman is not going to realize that they didn't get an answer there...

 

12 hours ago, AspieAlly613 said:

When you ask a girl to take any "next step" such as having sex, going to your apartment making it easier for you to ask her for sex, leaving the club to go to a diner so that you'll be alone and you won't have to compete with other guys for her, etc, phrase the suggestion in a way that if she says no, you can make a similar suggestion shortly afterward for her to reconsider.  Each time you ask a new question, you're giving yourself another opportunity for her to say "yes."  

And this is irritating, but I don't see a problem with it. Either way, consent is required. They are being pushy and yeah, some girls might change their answer when it's phrased a different way. But if it had been phrased that way to begin with, they probably would have just agreed to begin with. As long as the guy doesn't go on to break any restrictions that he agreed to later and accepts it if she changes her mind later (ie doesn't act without consent), there is still no problem here and she could even enjoy it as well. As long as there is consent, she is not being harmed. 

 

12 hours ago, AspieAlly613 said:

I'm told that these tips and others are discussed in great detail in the book "The Game," and are in fairly common practice.

Aaand, I lost the game...

 

12 hours ago, AspieAlly613 said:

While I've heard guys talk about wanting to be more successful with women, I haven't heard them explicitly add in the modifier "without resorting to unethical, underhanded, manipulative tactics."

And again, there is nothing really wrong with this. I mean, sure, maybe they are doing something morally wrong by, you know, viewing people as a means to an end and not as a dignified being in themselves, but that's kind of rampant in humanity and not directly connected with the act itself, more with the motivation. There is not anything inherently wrong with the act and I don't necessarily believe that people should be looked down on for trying to be persistent and find some way to make sex sound more appealing. Again, as long as everything stays consensual. The person manipulated into saying yes has the right to change their mind at any time, and as long as that right is acknowledged and respected (for whatever reason), I see no problem with the act itself. Maybe it makes them a morally bad person, but we all are in one way or another and I don't think that's a reason to push a negative viewpoint on anyone who might potentially have less-than-pure motivations just by sleeping with people that they don't know well. I mean no one agreeing to a one-night-stand cares who the person is on any night other than that one anyway.

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AspieAlly613

Sorry to disappear on everyone for almost a week.  I was offline for the Jewish holidays of Shmini Atzeret and Simchat Torah, saw there were some questions about what I meant when I got back, didn't have the time for a full response immediately, and forgot about it until now.  I still don't have time for a full response, but here's a summary.  Asking for consent should be a question, not an attempt.  It's difficult to identify one's own motivations and avoid manipulating a potential sexual partner.  When the main force behind a relationship is the prospect of sex, it''s even harder.  I'll elaborate by Sunday.

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AspieAlly613

Here's the somewhat longer version:

 

The point of requiring consent is that the desire and commitment should legitimately be mutual.  The whole point is ruined under any of the following circumstances:

 

1)  You repeatedly ask for consent/apply pressure until you get the answer you want once.  This is similar to a scientist running one experiment several times until xe gets the results xe wants.  In both cases, the answers can't be considered legitimate.  You get to suggest sex to your friend once.  If xe says no and changes xyr mind at a later date, xe'll tell you.

 

2) You utilize the techniques stereotypical of salespeople to influence your friend's decision.  You're supposed to be asking a question.  The true answer should not depend on the rhetoric you used to ask the question.  

 

The old (and inaccurately gender-specific) saying "You can't fault a man for trying" isn't true.  Of course we're allowed to try, but there are limitations that the saying doesn't seem to acknowledge.  As an allosexual, I know that I need to keep my urges in check and filter my behavior accordingly.  I've learned through experience that it is tempting to try to manipulate people.  A decent safeguard is to ask yourself the question "Is this person a close enough friend that I would feel guilty manipulating xem, or would it feel natural to objectify xem because xe's somewhere between passerby and friend?"  

 

I could ramble on more, but hopefully I've cleared up how much of a religious, grumpy, antisexual curmudgeon I am/am not.

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Jusey1

I'll probably get disliked here but I generally do not like the #MeToo movement, mostly because a lot of it that I have seen are overreactions... Sexual harassment is a serious thing though, I do agree, however I refuse to always side with the "victim" when there is a lack of evidence or if the thing that happened isn't real sexual harassment but rather just that victim's perceived opinion of the subject at hand.

For example, I don't consider flirting and compliments as sexual harassment at all. If someone does likes your body, then you should take that as a good thing. Even if it is whistling (despite that being very stupid and rude in my eyes to do. I wouldn't say it is sexual harassment), yet a lot of people overreact to this and try to say we live in a sexual culture or rape culture world, which isn't true at all. (The latter is by far not true at all while the former can be argued).

However, real sexual harassment, like grabbing one's behind or private parts, or simply just getting way too close for comfort (even if you are not touching) does deserve attention, as those are flat-out problems that needs to be addressed. After-all, all you really need to do is just respect everybody's "bubbles" and you should be good to go...

Another problem I notice is that when a male joins the #MeToo movement because he has been sexual harassed himself (even with proof) then he, usually, gets ridiculed by the others because "it's not the same thing" or "men cannot be sexual harassed!". That sort of thing. Granted, this is based on what I've seen and experienced on Twitter myself. This might not be true as a whole for all I know...

Anyways, overall. I find a lot of people overreacting to things that are just rude and stupid, causing the movement to create more problems in our society that we do not need, but it does help real sexual harassment problems that needs attention (like all crimes).

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The Dryad
On 10/8/2018 at 2:48 PM, Jusey1 said:

If someone does likes your body, then you should take that as a good thing.

I find this problematic, so if some stranger whistles at me in the street and catcalls me, "compliments" my body, then I'm supposed to feel happy and take this as a 'good thing'? Where's the consent? Reasoning like this is why rape culture is so prevalent, smiling at someone, or saying thank you so someone who just made you uncomfortable, even if they meant well doesn't build a healthy respect for boundaries.

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Calligraphette_Coe
8 hours ago, The Dryad said:

I find this problematic, so if some stranger whistles at me in the street and catcalls me, "compliments" my body, then I'm supposed to feel happy and take this as a 'good thing'? Where's the consent? Reasoning like this is why rape culture is so prevalent, smiling at someone, or saying thank you so someone who just made you uncomfortable, even if they meant well doesn't build a healthy respect for boundaries.

Just curious, but did you ever have a man make a pass at you that was just....Best Pass Ever? That even though the answer was 'No' for whatever reason, he was just so adept that it you couldn't feel uncomfortable at what he did?

 

I had that happen, much to my surprise at a meeting of trans people where there were some str8 cismales present. It was one of those La-di-dah events where everyone get dressed to the nines. And this guy made a pass at me that was just pure classy. I much to my own exasperated confusion, I got all weak in the knees, if you know what I mean? I made a comment later to a friend that he seemed to be working that crowd, and  she smiled and said, "Yeah, he's a real sweetheart of a charmer." And asked if he made a pass at me. Despite myself, I said, "Yeah, and it was damn good one, too!" 

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Sally
On 10/8/2018 at 12:48 PM, Jusey1 said:

Another problem I notice is that when a male joins the #MeToo movement because he has been sexual harassed himself (even with proof) then he, usually, gets ridiculed by the others because "it's not the same thing" or "men cannot be sexual harassed!". 

I don't know what you've been reading, but I haven't seen that happen at all.  I'm part of #MeToo because I've had such experiences, and there have been men who've spoken out in my area and across the country.  No one ridicules them.  

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FictoCannibal.
On 10/9/2018 at 8:48 AM, Jusey1 said:

If someone does likes your body, then you should take that as a good thing. Even if it is whistling (despite that being very stupid and rude in my eyes to do. I wouldn't say it is sexual harassment), yet a lot of people overreact to this and try to say we live in a sexual culture or rape culture world, which isn't true at all.

The thing is, as a female you never know when a whistle will turn into rape, an attack, or murder. That may sound extreme but I wrote a report about once for AVEN (it's on the site somewhere) which contained many news articles where a basic whistle ended up with a woman (and sometimes even young teen girls) getting attacked with a weapon/followed home/raped/ran over/and even murdered. It will begin with something as basic as a guy saying ''hey baby'' or giving a little whistle, and depending on the girl's reaction can escalate to violence. And that's regardless of whether the reaction is to ignore the guy (because that can cause an angry reaction) or to smile and say thank you (because that can encourage the guy to follow you etc). Different reactions from the girl spark reactions in different types of guys. No, these violent results don't happen in all cases of 'street whistling', they only happen in a small minority. But the fact is they DO happen and as a female walking home alone or whatever you never know which street whistle may turn into something a lot worse, it's completely random and unpredictable and it's terrifying. So it makes many women extremely, incredibly uncomfortable when men vocalize how much they like a woman's tits on the street. Not only that, but it's a disgusting invasion of personal space. How hard is it to just think your head 'she has nice boobs' without opening one's bloody mouth and having to yell that out on the damn street?

 

But yeah this issue is so much more complicated than just 'be happy a guy likes your body'. It's not his body, he's not her boyfriend or husband. So he can keep his mouth shut. It's not fair to put women in a position where they feel vulnerable and unsafe just because you (the man) feel like you need to tell her how nice her tits are.

 

*shakes my head*

 

Disclaimer: By 'you' I mean the general you, not you Jusey1.

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Jusey1
7 hours ago, FictoCannibal. said:

The thing is, as a female you never know when a whistle will turn into rape, an attack, or murder...

While I agree that terrible situations, like the ones you mentioned, do actually happen to a lot of people (on both sides of the coin), but living life in paranoia and fear is still your choice. Sure, being prepared, armed, etc for the worse is always a good thing to do but you shouldn't just be upset if someone compliments you just because of your paranoia of "He's gonna rape/murder me later!!"...

That's not a fun way of living life. Then again, I'm more of a positive person who accepts that anything bad can happen to me at any time but choose to be happy and open to everyone in public, within reason.

 

On 10/10/2018 at 2:23 PM, The Dryad said:

Where's the consent?

This is the problem and honestly why I disagree with you... It is your choice to get uncomfortable over a compliment, even if that compliment is rude... It's still a compliment that someone is giving to you because they notice ya. As long as they aren't doing anything flat-out illegal (such as stalking you), then why do they need your consent to compliment you? That's very weird thinking. "Oh, can I have your permission to compliment?" - "Oh, you don't have my consent to speak to me, you pervert!" .... A bit of an extreme example but ye'h...

The whole consent thing only really applies when they are physically doing something toward you, such as following ya, hanging out, and so on. Then it makes sense to get your consent but just complimenting you, speaking to you for a mere moment (maybe just to ask a question)... Really? That stuff shouldn't need a consent cause they're not doing anything flat-out wrong. You are only uncomfortable due to your OWN PARANOIA, as I mentioned above... That is on you and you alone. It is your choice to be scared of everybody and everything. It is your choice to be paranoid and uncomfortable in public... Thing is, the majority of people are just nice people and will not be that pervertic rapist like your paranoia may tell you... Majority of the time, they're just being nice and complimenting on how you look because that is simply a nice thing to do. Sure, some of them might be a little rude about it by doing something that they shouldn't but they're not actually going to rape you or murder you or anything like that...

AND this is coming from someone who suffers from social anxiety and is uncomfortable around people all the time!!!

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Anthraxite_Vampreza

Lol at blokes telling women (and those read as women) they should be happy to be "complimented" and not worry about being stalked, raped and/or murdered.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Jusey1 said:

Majority of the time, they're just being nice and complimenting on how you look because that is simply a nice thing to do.

I don’t think for most people it’s about potential attack..  it’s more that they’re not being nice and it’s not a nice thing to do.

 

There’s a big difference between telling a coworker you like their necklace/tie/new haircut (or a friend they look good in blue) and catcalling/whistling/otherwise remarking on random strangers. The nice thing to do, as someone mentioned above, is to think any admiration (or negative observation, for that matter) rather than speaking it.

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Alejandrogynous

Because like Ficto said, we don't know when it's just a catcall and when it's not. And it's not, a lot of the time. These aren't one-off cases that happen once in a blue moon to people we read about in the news but don't really know. Assaults happen all the time to friends, family, to people we know personally. Which is exactly what the #MeToo movement is trying to bring into the open, how pervasive this problem is.

 

Some people who catcall/compliment mean to be nice. Some people don't. The bottom line is that we won't know until it's too late, which can be frightening regardless of your actual intentions. And if you know this and still choose to catcall anyway, even if you're not a stalker or a murderer or rapist and genuinely mean to compliment, you're not being nice either. Because you're knowingly putting your want (to catcall) above our comfort and are essentially saying, 'I know this might scare you but I'm doing it anyway because it makes me happy.'

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ryn2
4 minutes ago, Alejandrogynous said:

And if you know this and still choose to catcall anyway, even if you're not a stalker or a murderer or rapist and genuinely mean to compliment, you're not being nice either. Because you're knowingly putting your want (to catcall) above our comfort and are essentially saying, 'I know this might scare you but I'm doing it anyway because it makes me happy.'

Exactly.

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FictoCannibal.
2 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

but living life in paranoia and fear is still your choice

....Or, men could just not catcall? I'm not talking about living in fear, but a pang of fear definitely shoots through your heart when a group of guys in their car starts following you slowly down the road (while you're on the footpath) whistling at you and saying "hey baby, come for a ride!" or when you're walking through a park to get to work and a guy starts following you saying stuff like "damn gurl do you have any idea how good you look in those jeans?". You know for the fact the situation may turn nasty and even if you're prepared to fight, that doesn't mean you don't feel fear (especially as you know you'll probably lose, men generally being bigger and faster). Why should women have to deal with that at all, that pang of fear and doubt and discomfort, when men could just do something as basic as keep their thoughts about intimate parts of a woman's body to themselves???

 

2 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

Then again, I'm more of a positive person who accepts that anything bad can happen to me at any time but choose to be happy and open to everyone in public, within reason.

Yet I see the pronouns for a male under your avatar? So it's much easier for you to be open with anyone you want (which is why it's overwhelmingly men who do catcalling: they literally can't understand the feelings of fear and repulsion it can cause because they feel relatively safe being open with anyone - within reason). 

 

2 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

then why do they need your consent to compliment you?

Because a catcall is rarely a legitimate compliment, to start with. That's why. I've been legitimately complimented by men (who know me at least a little bit, like through work or whatever) eg "hey those are cool boots, where did you get them?", and I've been catcalled - which is generally a clearly sexual comment a stranger will make about some aspect of your appearance (or a rude whistle or gesture, like licking between their fingers while looking at you or making a wanking gesture). Those are designed to make the person receiving them feel uncomfortable and small, and often if the person doesn't respond positively the guy will yell "bitch" or "slut" after you. The danger is though sometimes if you do respond it encourages him and he'll try to talk to you or something, ugh, usually asking you how you like it in bed or whatever. I've never met a genuinely kind and respectful man who will catcall a woman. It's only ever sleezes who enjoy making girls fell small and who feel like they're 'better' than women that legitimately catcall. They see women more as objects than as people with minds.

 

So like @ryn2 said, it's not even always about the potential of danger (though many women have ended up in scary situations at least once as a result of catcalling). It's also the fact that it's just a dirty and low thing to do. Keep your 'compliment' in your mind, appreciate her body from afar. No need to walk up to her in the street and tell her how nice her tits look in that top, yuck.

 

2 hours ago, Jusey1 said:

AND this is coming from someone who suffers from social anxiety and is uncomfortable around people all the time!!!

Not to be sexist, but you're a man, so this isn't an issue that affects you in the same way it affects females. Imagine being a 15 year old girl (who also has social anxiety, I might add) being followed down the road by a group of guys while you're trying to get home from drama practice. It's starting to get dark and the guys slow right down in their car so they can drive beside you..They're all yelling stuff like "get in the car please baby, we don't bite" and making comments about how your body looks, and asking if you're a virgin and stuff. You ignore them (while at the same time you're panicking inside not knowing what's going to happen, and feeling awful about your body because of the stuff they're saying) then they eventually rev their car really loudly while yelling "get fucked then you're just a dirty slut anyway" and speed off. This is just one of many examples of a pretty common and terrifying type of catcalling and this has happened to me as well as many other women I know at different ages in their lives. Maybe this sounds extreme to you or maybe it doesn't, but it's really a pretty common type of catcalling and it's very scary even when it doesn't result in an actual crime beging committed. Imagine trying to deal with that shit when you have social anxiety as well. Not fun.

 

So yeah, until you've been a female and experienced catcalling by men for yourself, you really aren't in a position to talk about how brave you'd be in the face of it. Experiences like that leave lasting impressions as well, by the way. You're not suddenly going to be fearless the next time a group of guys pulls up in their car wanting to take you for a ride. Maybe that's legitimately all they want to do but that doesn't stop it being a very scary experience.

 

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ryn2
44 minutes ago, Anthraxite_Vampreza said:

Lol at blokes telling women (and those read as women) they should be happy to be "complimented" and not worry about being stalked, raped and/or murdered.

Also, let’s not forget “screamed at.”  Even when there’s no chance it will escalate - and like several posters have said, how’s the target to know? - most people don’t like random strangers yelling “hey, did you hear me?”, “speak when you’re spoken to,” “fine, b**ch, be that way,” and the like after them as they try to peacefully go on about their business.

 

It doesn’t have to be some sort of physical assault to be unpleasant.

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