Combatting male suicide

[RoseGoesToYale]

(Obviously this thread talks about suicide, but not so much the problem as finding constructive solutions. Please contact the National Suicide Hotline at 1-800-273-8255 or your local crisis line if you or someone you know in danger)

 

There's no doubt that an overwhelming number of males all over the world die by suicide. In 2016, the male suicide rate in the US was 3.6 times greater than female. (https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/suicide.shtml) Eastern European/former Soviet countries have the highest rates among developed countries.

 

There are a lot of tangled and complicated reasons for it, but I keep wondering why our current methods aren't bringing the rates down. At the top of the post I reference the National Suicide Hotline, a phone number anyone can call and be connected to a person trained to help the caller talk through suicidal thoughts and calm down. But the hotline approach assumes a few things:

1. The suicidal person has the agency (capability to act) to call the number. For this to happen, the caller has to believe that the call will help them, and that the person on the other end is genuinely interested in helping them.

2. The caller wants/needs to talk. This is a bit problematic if you're male and you've been raised to not talk about feelings, especially to strangers, and worry your masculinity will be compromised by calling.

3. The caller has "emotional intelligence" (and I hate this term, because it makes it sound like people who struggle to read or express emotions are unintelligent). The caller needs to be able to put into understandable words what they feel. From a young age, most girls learn pretty extensive emotional vocabulary, whereas boys don't often have this opportunity.

 

The psychologist approach also assumes these things, but with the added assumption of having money. These services, then, are probably going to benefit females much more than males. But it isn't just males... the talking model just doesn't work for everyone. It didn't work for me... 2 of of 3 of my experiences with psychologists were failures because I hated the setting and the talking and the feeling like I was a criminal for being unhappy. The one success was when I was 8 years old, and the biggest part of the therapy was play, drawing, acting out scenes with figurines, holding her pet cockatiel. There was some talking at the end of the session, but not very much. I usually feel at my best when I'm doing something with my hands.

 

Our current model is focused entirely too much on talking and not enough on doing. Imagine if there were a "talking optional" crisis center, one where people could just do crafts or rock climb or play fetch with dogs. I guess some psychologists would be against this... they can't get paid if they don't talk. Something like a just-wander-on-in kind of place where people could come if they feel hopeless. I would've appreciated such freedom, and my guess many dudes out there would feel better getting to do physical things rather than getting stuck in a stuffy room with a psych expert. I also hypothesize that the majority of female suicides happen for the same reason as the males, because the talk-it-out method is unappealing or unhelpful.

 

Do you think this could ever be feasible? Is there another way? Society isn't very good at critiquing the current system (it's been around since the 50s), perhaps because it's difficult to deal with death. But rates are increasing across the sexes and genders, so we need to start critiquing it now.

[Lord Jade Cross]

.

 

 

[LeChat]

1 hour ago, RoseGoesToYale said:

...Our current model is focused entirely too much on talking and not enough on doing. Imagine if there were a "talking optional" crisis center, one where people could just do crafts or rock climb or play fetch with dogs. I guess some psychologists would be against this... they can't get paid if they don't talk. Something like a just-wander-on-in kind of place where people could come if they feel hopeless. I would've appreciated such freedom, and my guess many dudes out there would feel better getting to do physical things rather than getting stuck in a stuffy room with a psych expert. I also hypothesize that the majority of female suicides happen for the same reason as the males, because the talk-it-out method is unappealing or unhelpful.

 

Do you think this could ever be feasible? Is there another way? Society isn't very good at critiquing the current system (it's been around since the 50s), perhaps because it's difficult to deal with death. But rates are increasing across the sexes and genders, so we need to start critiquing it now.

Hi. I know what you mean about having unsympathetic help from professionals; the good news is I've heard from others who are currently in therapy or who've recently been in therapy, who also don't like talking to their therapist a lot or much at all, and their therapist has allowed them to write down their thoughts, instead, and had it over to them if they felt more comfortable with that or allowed them to not talk much at all if they didn't feel like it, just to sit with their feelings that might've come up. Some also practice EMDR, where the patient doesn't even have to talk about their specific trauma to their therapist if they don't want to; they only have to think of their traumatic memory during the process, themselves, in their mind during that process.

 

So, it seems to me that the process has changed a bit and that it depends on the therapist or professional, finding one who'll help you in the way a person is comfortable with. Reading about others' positive experiences with their kind, attentive and helpful therapists (some would offer them hugs if they wanted them) caused me to wish I had their therapist.

[Cheshire-Cat]

It's interesting because through my job I see a lot of suicidal patients, and the occasional successful suicide. The vast vast majority of attempted suicides (usually overdoses or sever self harm) seem to be female and seem to be more a cry for help than a serious attempt. By this I mean it is something that has been done spur of the moment without any serious effort to make sure it would work. 

Males on the other hand you don't see many attempts but they seem more likely to be successful. They seem less spur of the moment and more planned. They've actually gone out and worked out what will definitely work and then chosen the 'best' opportunity to do it.

 

However, where I am the mental health system is pretty poor for attempted suicides or people feeling suicidal. My one meeting with someone from a crisis team as a patient basically started with 'Why are you still here? Why haven't you walked out yet?' And as a result we tend to have the same mental health frequent flyers. The downside of this is that once you've seen the same patient for the umpteenth time, who is probably also drunk, and in some cases quite abusive to health care staff, you start to lose that care and patience with that person.

Mental health is complicated and there's never going to be a one box fits all. And as modern society progresses and we become more and more isolated, and more and more sedentary, it's a problem that will only get worse. We are unlikely to get massive changes without a big change in society and a big change in our lifestyles. I do believe though that we should actually be using exercise, diet, and lifestyle changes far more to help with mental health problems and suicidal patients. Employ personal trainers who specialise in helping suicidal patients. Who can work out of gyms but also outdoors or at the persons own home. 

 

Personally diet and exercise play an enormous part in my mental health. When I don't exercise and my diet gets worse my mental health can drop dramatically.

[Epitaph]

Like with most things, I believe that every case is different. There is no cookie cutter method that can be applied universally. It has to be done on a case by case basis, scenario by scenario, person by person. And I believe a portion of the medical industry has forgotten this. In no small part due to how it functions today. It's been optimized for profit firstly, with overall wellfare and efficiency taking a backseat in second and third places. It's also a rigid and stale structure that does now allow for growth in other directions.

 

I've been around many medical workers and I've talked to them. A lot of them have the heart and care to go above and beyond what's called for, but due to regulations and restrictions(standards set by the industry which is entirely monetarily motivated at this point), they can't do anything even if they wanted to for risk of losing their jobs or having potential lawsuits slapped on them. The doc has to prescribe you on something, or at least nudge you in that direction. Failing that, they redirect you to another doc who'll do the same thing. I myself have no ideas on what could be done, as I don't have the optimistic outlook that anything will be done. But I understand the reasoning completely. The blunt force approach doesn't work. If it's not working, you don't use more blunt force, instead you try using a little more finesse.

 

Hotlines and docs never did anything for me. The hotline would redirect me to a therapist of some sort and the therapist would only ever skim very basic things that I already knew myself before chucking pills at me and sending me out the door. The meds either helped somewhat, before I built up a resistance to them, or they fucked with me so hard that I couldn't stay on them. It was reading on my own and dismantling, identifying, and thinking about everything about myself that allowed me to very literally dodge the bullet.

 

I don't know how I would've responded to a calm place where I could just do stuff. Back then, for me there was no calm place if people were involved. I didn't open up to people easily, if at all. Even today although I'm better at navigating people, I withhold a lot. Which only reiterates my point. Every case is different.

 

What we need are docs that aren't bound by so many restrictions who have the flexability to adapt to a situation and think outside the box when presented with a unique case, and the medical system needs to grant them the leeway to do so in order to effectively accommodate their patients. I think that would help, for starters.

[Alawyn-Aebt]

This was just my experience, so it may not be relevant in all situations

(Also maybe the fact I am introverted and tend not to show emotion might effect this)

 

When I entertained suicidal thoughts (and plans) no one else could see it. I kept my emotions hidden. I had no way of contacting the said phone numbers (unless Parents realizing) and was worried that everyone I talked to would give some sort of "You only live once" speech; which never really had an effect one me. I thought and i planned and spent an inordinate amount of time writing or crying (all secretly). I finally got over it when my emotions burst and my parents realized my problems. Their first thing was "Why didn't you talk to us or someone else?"

 

Probably the reason people don't talk to anyone else boils down to a few reasons:

I. Afraid of getting the "You only live once speech", which if you have already started planning really has limited effect

II. Afraid of getting someone super Religious in the sort of "Hell will open wider if you do", which again has limited effect if you have already started planning

III. Afraid of someone saying "That's stupid", which really only has the effect of making your feel more isolated

 

A way to combat these problems would be something like "Suicide Education", like Sex Ed, just not so explicit and out in the open what you are doing. Maybe schools could have some class where students are taught about the world and exploring the world, or maybe shown facts (from Gapminder or similar UN data collection sites) about the world, its diversity, its strong-points, and its weak-points. You want to show people amazing things around and about the world, give them the ability to formulate lifelong goals or items to add to their bucket list. Because if you have a goal, suicide suddenly looks a lot less promising.

 

Again, this may not apply to everyone and may not even apply to anyone else besides myself, but maybe it would help.

[Lichley]

There was a show on the BBC called “The Doctor who gave up drugs” about a doctor who chose to explore alternative therapies for mental illnesses like depression and there was actually a company who focused on using outdoor activities to help with depression.

 

They taught them how to make fires and encouraged them to try again when they failed, when they did it they congratulated them. The also went on woodland walks, and did outdoor activities alongside emotional support in order to help people regain their sense of accomplishment.

 

It isn’t necessarily the best alternative in the world, and I wouldn’t recommend giving up medication, but the idea itself sounds really great, and their trial candidate seemed to enjoy it, so it’s something to do to get you out the house as well as giving you time to work through your emotions. 

[Guest Jetsun Milarepa]

Not having read the posts above in great detail (getting ready for work) my 10 cents is :  we live in a society that says 'you must be positive! Don't be negative!' and all the while, people who have every right to be unhappy/depressed are committing suicide. I was moved by a news report about a football manager here in the UK. the news anchors were recalling how he had a new exciting job managing his country's team.He came to the newsroom, buoyed up with the news of the job, seemed happy, then went home and immediately hung himself. His wife discovered him on her return home a little later.

 

That speaks volumes to me. 'Look like you're happy! People won't want you if you're down!'   Tosh.

[Karst]

I think @E  is right, in that we need to have a healthcare system that's less motivated by capitalism.  "Medicine for profit" is what caused the opioid epidemic in the U.S., and it's just not a viable system in the long run.

@chandrakirti also has a good point.  At a certain point, forcing people to present a "happy face" just makes them miserable.

[Karst]

@Aebt's proposal that schools should teach students more about mental health issues and how to cope with them is excellent, and I would love to see it in practice.  I think that having something like it in place could have really helped some of the people I knew in school.

[uhtred]

I think it might help to understand the different causes for suicide - because there may be different approaches to fixing them.    I think there are at least: (generally all completely irrational)

 

pure depression:  someone is unhappy for no external reason. (this may be the one that is best treated with medication)

 

Guilt / shame:  Someone feels that they can't face the world due to something they have done.  

 

"honor" : in a bad way - someone who believes that they must die for some  "failure". 

 

Hopelessness: Someone who feels that they are in a situation that has no hope for the future. 

 

Lost love: There are people who kill themselves when the person they love leaves them.  This is perhaps the saddest. 

[Alawyn-Aebt]

Yes uhtred, it is important to realize the many different causes, and oftentimes those causes must combated in differing ways. I will suggest though probably at least another reason more akin to feeling of low self-worth, but that is not strictly failure or hopelessness.

 

Self-Worth/Bettering the World Depression: Someone is unhappy due to a feeling of low self-worth and/or the belief that the world would be better without them.

 

 

5 minutes ago, uhtred said:

(generally all completely irrational)

Generally yes, looking back and from an outside perspective it seems irrational, but to those debating or attempting or succeeding, it certainly seems rational. I know it felt rational to me at the time, looking back maybe not, but I would certainly not dismiss suicide as irrational.

[uhtred]

6 hours ago, Aebt said:

Yes uhtred, it is important to realize the many different causes, and oftentimes those causes must combated in differing ways. I will suggest though probably at least another reason more akin to feeling of low self-worth, but that is not strictly failure or hopelessness.

 

Self-Worth/Bettering the World Depression: Someone is unhappy due to a feeling of low self-worth and/or the belief that the world would be better without them.

 

 

Generally yes, looking back and from an outside perspective it seems irrational, but to those debating or attempting or succeeding, it certainly seems rational. I know it felt rational to me at the time, looking back maybe not, but I would certainly not dismiss suicide as irrational.

Yes it does make sense at the time to the person doing it.  I think that is true of many forms of mental illness. I suffer from mild compulsive behavior.  It seems so easy to say, "well, just don't do X".  

 

I view it as irrational because to someone thinking clearly, it is irrational, just  not to the person considering suicide.  There is a high school near here where children have thrown themselves in front of trains because of bad grades.  I know that with the pressure from their parents etc. it seemed to them like their lives were over, but to an outside observer, a 16 year old has their whole life ahead and has plenty of time to do what they want with that life.  

 

I was one point away on a test from flunking out  of grad school, and at the time I thought about killing myself if I failed.  I don't know if I would have done it, but it seemed completely reasonable at the time - and my family has a history of mental illness, including an uncle who committed suicide.  From my current point of view, I can see that my life would not have been all that different if I had failed - slightly different job, but as things turned out, probably a much better job in the long term. But at the time - it seems that I could only imagine one future for myself and that was about to be blocked off.

 

I wonder if that is a way to try to reach some people:  try to help convince them that there isn't a single path to success / happiness, that there are many many paths, and just because one door is close doesn't mean there are not many more. 

[Alawyn-Aebt]

Please don't take my rationality of suicide the wrong way, I completely feel my brush with attempted suicide was irrational now, but I know that there are those people who if you mention your mental situation to them they will respond with "That's crazy and irrational". It is, after the fact, but in the moment saying that only serves to make the suicidal person feel more isolated, and (in my personal experience) seems to drive the already-suicidal person towards suicide more.

4 minutes ago, uhtred said:

I wonder if that is a way to try to reach some people:  try to help convince them that there isn't a single path to success / happiness, that there are many many paths, and just because one door is close doesn't mean there are not many more. 

You hit the nail on the head, I unfortunately have few answers for it.

 

[uhtred]

I wonder if it is connected to compulsion?   The feeling that  you somehow *must* kill yourself.  That that path you wanted was the *only* path, and everything else is helpless. 

 

 

[Alawyn-Aebt]

It might be. As I think about it I would not classify my thinking as compulsive during my suicidal stage; I never really had a path of life and it was much more of a bettering the world sort of suicidal thoughts (if you understand what I mean). However it is certainly a valid point. It would be better if someone else who had a suicidal stage would chime in to gain another perspective, rather than just us two.

[Jusey1]

Every case is different and there is no true answer. Though there are some common similarities between the people. I think the most common one I've noticed is essentially just work itself. Due to genetics, males are much more stubborn and competitive, which makes us very great workers since we are less likely to call off work, more likely to work longer hours, and all of that other Jazz. Essentially, some of these suicidal males are overworking themselves to depression or perhaps lost a 'competition' to getting a raise to someone else, or any other work related stress that the individual couldn't handle.