Regarding the desire to be "first priority."

[Galactic Turtle]

Hello humans.

 

Whether amongst romantic or many aromantic individuals, one thing I've noticed is that lots of people (regardless of the activities their relationship contains) want a partner who has them as their number one, their first priority, the person they'd do anything for. It is this expectation that is oftentimes included in romantic relationships or general emotional partnerships that I don't understand. One of my friends has expressed this. She's intimidated by the image of having a boyfriend but does want a handsome man to dedicate their life to her, to always be around to hangout and do things with her, and to always say the right thing to make her feel better. Kind of like... a living teddy bear of sorts that spits out compliments like a gum ball machine. 

 

And I guess that's what drives me to say I'm not interested in having a partner because I find this aspect existing in the idea of "platonic partners" as well. I understand caring for someone and dropping everything to help them out if you can. But to single out one person and say that no one else in the world is more important, no one else will ever come before them, no one else will glow more in their existence than them seems bizarre. I understand people reaching a level where life would never be the same if they were to go away. But choosing one person for all of that makes as much sense as making me choose between my dad, mom, and sister who I value the most. That makes no sense to me. I value them all equally, my life would never be the same without any one of them. 

 

So is this really what people are seeking out when they say they want a partner/relationship? A person who will have them as their number one regardless of the situation? Am I just not understanding this correctly? If this is you, why do you want that? Why are you sad without it? What about that would improve your quality of life? I know that things like marriage is one way to bring someone into one's family and to me being family (whether by blood or not) does encompass the range of top tier relationships you could form. So for my close friend the thing I want to communicate the most is that she is like a sister to me, that she's in this exclusive bubble of people in my life I consider family but because she is my friend and not related to me, no one believes me when I say that this relationship and my other close relationships are fulfilling all of my desires (as they don't believe being aro ace is possible).

 

Um... yeah. Not sure if any of that made sense. I guess I'd just like some clarity from folks who have this mindset. Why do things have to be a competition if you love someone?

 

[NickyTannock]

I'm wondering this as well because I've never had any desire for this kind of person.

[Redwylde]

For me personally, I think it stems from the fact I've never been the priority.

No matter how many friends I've had, how many I've loved and supported through their happiest and darkest moments, they always turn away from me in favour of Someone Else. For every single one of my friends there's always been that Someone Else. I've been ditched for Someone Else, been ignored and pushed aside for Someone Else and been used as a substitute when Someone Else isn't there. It doesn't matter how much I loved them, how many times I'd been there for them when no one else was, it just wasn't ENOUGH. I was never enough for some reason.

Over the course of my life it's come to hurt A LOT; the knowledge that all of my friendships have an expiry date, that I'm the middle ground until they find their Someone Else. So I guess, all I want is to be important to SOMEBODY.

 

It's a very lonely feeling for me. I try to be happy for my friends because they deserve to have the relationships with people they want, and I can't change their feelings, nor would I want to control them, but it does take a HUGE toll on me to know that I'm so exposable to my loved ones.

I always figured that I'd feel happy pursuing a QPR. That way I could spend my time with someone and not have that fear that they're going to leave me for Someone Else. Because I WOULD be their Someone right? Which actually isn't all that fool-proof because technically they could leave too lol

At this stage, although I SAY this is something I really want, I am struggling to tell whether this is something I really want for myself, or if it's just the amatonormativity. It's something I need to work out, but I do know I'm just so tired of being left behind.

[Guest]

Well.. why would you consider someone a 'partner' if they were literally just another of your many friends, and of the same.. er.. importance? to you as anyone else? If they live with you, you're sharing financial responsibilities, sharing chores etc, go to family dinners together etc.. doesn't that mean they're automatically of more importance than a friend you go out for coffee with on Sundays? It just seems like a given to me, lol.

 

Not that I can talk, I don't even have friends (by choice), but yeah.. if I was going to share so many responsibilities with someone, they'd need to be very important to me, and I'd want them to view me as very important also.. otherwise we'd just be casual acquaintances sharing a life and sharing financial responsibilities together which could get incredibly awkward and complicated! 😧 

[Anthracite_Impreza]

5 minutes ago, Redwylde said:

So I guess, all I want is to be important to SOMEBODY.

I can empathise with this so much.

[little fish]

The people that are in relationships around me seem so attached to their partners, they can't spend a day without seeing at least calling each other, a week without seeing each other. They get sad, jealous, angry, if the connection is not maintained and trust is not 100%. 

 

For me it's intimidating to be so committed to someone else. It's so much effort. I'd be putting in a lot of work for no reward. There's a part of me that kind of wants the 'dream' of having someone to make inside jokes with and take to the movies, but I think that's just called friendship.

[Galactic Turtle]

1 minute ago, FictoVore. said:

Well.. why would you consider someone a 'partner' if they were literally just another of your many friends, and of the same.. er.. importance? to you as anyone else? If they live with you, you're sharing financial responsibilities, sharing chores etc, go to family dinners together etc.. doesn't that mean they're automatically of more importance than a friend you go out for coffee with on Sundays? It just seems like a given to me, lol.

 

Not that I can talk, I don't even have friends (by choice), but yeah.. if I was going to share so many responsibilities with someone, they'd need to be very important to me, and I'd want them to view me as very important also.. otherwise we'd just be casual acquaintances sharing a life and sharing financial responsibilities together which could get incredibly awkward and complicated! 😧 

I've lived with friends before but I wouldn't consider them my partner. I guess they'd gain the title of roommate? But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking about what people have in their heads when they want to be someone's first priority from now until the end of days. 

[Ceebs]

I honestly think it's something you either innately desire and understand or you don't. Otherwise, @FictoVore. said basically everything I would've.

[Sweet Potato]

While I would expect to be a priority for someone I was in a committed relationship with, I don't expect to be their first priority all the time. Priorities change, sometimes one has to put themselves first, or their children,  maybe a family member is in need of help and you have to put their needs in front of your partner's. I think a person demanding to be their significant others #1 all the time is a selfish person who could benefit from a wider world view.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Galactic Turtle said:

I've lived with friends before but I wouldn't consider them my partner. I guess they'd gain the title of roommate? But that's not what I'm talking about. I'm asking about what people have in their heads when they want to be someone's first priority from now until the end of days. 

I think it's just part of the human condition. It makes people feel safer to know there will always be one person out there who cares about their well-being and who will be there for them no matter what happens. A roommate isn't expected to care for you when you're sick, bathe you if you're too injured or unwell to help yourself, be there to support you no matter what's happening in their lives, to share emotional responsibilities as well as financial. I think many people would feel incredibly alone in this world without having that hope to cling to, and they also love to be able to give that in return: to feel needed and loved by that one special someone.

 

I don't personally want that right now, haven't for a long time and maybe never will again, but for most people I can see it as a perfectly natural and understandable desire. Does my answer help clarify things at all?

[Galactic Turtle]

11 minutes ago, Redwylde said:

For me personally, I think it stems from the fact I've never been the priority.

No matter how many friends I've had, how many I've loved and supported through their happiest and darkest moments, they always turn away from me in favour of Someone Else. For every single one of my friends there's always been that Someone Else. I've been ditched for Someone Else, been ignored and pushed aside for Someone Else and been used as a substitute when Someone Else isn't there. It doesn't matter how much I loved them, how many times I'd been there for them when no one else was, it just wasn't ENOUGH. I was never enough for some reason.

Over the course of my life it's come to hurt A LOT; the knowledge that all of my friendships have an expiry date, that I'm the middle ground until they find their Someone Else. So I guess, all I want is to be important to SOMEBODY.

 

It's a very lonely feeling for me. I try to be happy for my friends because they deserve to have the relationships with people they want, and I can't change their feelings, nor would I want to control them, but it does take a HUGE toll on me to know that I'm so exposable to my loved ones.

I always figured that I'd feel happy pursuing a QPR. That way I could spend my time with someone and not have that fear that they're going to leave me for Someone Else. Because I WOULD be their Someone right? Which actually isn't all that fool-proof because technically they could leave too lol

At this stage, although I SAY this is something I really want, I am struggling to tell whether this is something I really want for myself, or if it's just the amatonormativity. It's something I need to work out, but I do know I'm just so tired of being left behind.

This is similar to one of my friend's way of thinking. I guess the result is a combination of experience and personality. An example she often uses is that she might ask someone to hangout and they say no in favor of sitting around at home. She thinks that if this person really cared about her they'd come out an meet her for lunch but they don't, they choose to rest at home. And these types of decisions send her spiraling into this whole mood of feeling like no one values her the way she values others. This person is someone who is very important to me so it's hard to hear her talk like this but I just pin it on people interpreting things different ways. I'm not saying this is you, I'm just saying that I am friends with someone who might have a similar mindset and that is what it is like from the other side of the aisle. She's always trying to guess when I'll ditch her or become bored with her. We've been friends for around six years now. But she has a natural checks and balances system in her head that I'm not always aware of in terms of how much impact it has on her self image. She's also very taken with the idea of romance and having that one person. I want to understand where she's coming from but find it very difficult to accomplish.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

Some of us have abandonment issues, I sure have. I never feel like I'm good enough and that everyone will just get fed up with me. I crave attention not because I think I'm worthy of it, but because I panic that I'm gonna be abandoned. I get jealous not because I think I should be #1 but because, you guessed it, I panic that I'm gonna be abandoned.

 

That's not most people, most people are just bog-standard romantic, but it is some of us.

[Galactic Turtle]

11 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

I think it's just part of the human condition. It makes people feel safer to know there will always be one person out there who cares about their well-being and who will be there for them no matter what happens. A roommate isn't expected to care for you when you're sick, bathe you if you're too injured or unwell to help yourself, be there to support you no matter what's happening in their lives, to share emotional responsibilities as well as financial. I think many people would feel incredibly alone in this world without having that hope to cling to, and they also love to be able to give that in return: to feel needed and loved by that one special someone.

 

I don't personally want that right now, haven't for a long time and maybe never will again, but for most people I can see it as a perfectly natural and understandable desire. Does my answer help clarify things at all?

I... suppose? Maybe it's because I've pretty much only ever had friends who also happened to become roommates but even as a college freshman when my roommate got sick I'd ask if she needed anything or how I could make her more comfortable. I went to the other side of the city to pick her up when she got drunk and in a bad situation. It just seems like something you should do assuming your relationship isn't a negative one. Maybe that's just me. You say it makes people feel safer having that one person, but I guess that just makes me wonder if the average person doesn't often come across people they feel safe with.

 

Then again maybe it's just what @CBC said as well: 

13 minutes ago, CBC said:

I honestly think it's something you either innately desire and understand or you don't.

 

[Galactic Turtle]

4 minutes ago, Anthracite_Impreza said:

Some of us have abandonment issues, I sure have. I never feel like I'm good enough and that everyone will just get fed up with me. I crave attention not because I think I'm worthy of it, but because I panic that I'm gonna be abandoned. I get jealous not because I think I should be #1 but because, you guessed it, I panic that I'm gonna be abandoned.

 

That's not most people, most people are just bog-standard romantic, but it is some of us.

I suspected that. But even amongst lots of aromantic people they seem to just innately desire "that one person" and their ideas surrounding a QPR weird me out just as much as the average romantic relationship. So I do wonder in general how that happens. 

[Redwylde]

2 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

She's always trying to guess when I'll ditch her or become bored with her. We've been friends for around six years now.

I understand this feeling, it can become easy to EXPECT people to walk out on you if it's happened often. It can be very exhausting for people on the other end of it.

 

5 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

An example she often uses is that she might ask someone to hangout and they say no in favor of sitting around at home. She thinks that if this person really cared about her they'd come out an meet her for lunch but they don't, they choose to rest at home. And these types of decisions send her spiraling into this whole mood of feeling like no one values her the way she values others.

This, however, seems very much like she has really low self-esteem. When my friends would rather chill than hang out, I understand completely. We all like to have our own space from time to time and I don't take it as proof of them not caring about me. We just meet up when they're feeling up to it again, and vice versa. It seems like your friend takes it as a deeply personal attack, which is sign of extremely low self-esteem and abandonment issues. I wish her all the best, it can be really tough to deal with.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

I... suppose? Maybe it's because I've pretty much only ever had friends who also happened to become roommates but even as a college freshman when my roommate got sick I'd ask if she needed anything or how I could make her more comfortable. I went to the other side of the city to pick her up when she got drunk and in a bad situation. It just seems like something you should do assuming your relationship isn't a negative one. Maybe that's just me. You say it makes people feel safer having that one person, but I guess that just makes me wonder if the average person doesn't often come across people they feel safe with.

would you do that for everyone you know though, even casual acquaintances? Because I think for most people, that kind of care/concern is more reserved for close friends and family members (and partner if you have one, of course!). It's possible to still have that level of care with people you're not romantically attached to, of course.. many people care about their very close friends, or even classmates etc, when the necessity arises  I think the difference in a romantic relationship is that it is (or should be, in a healthy relationship) an automatic given, and that makes you both feel really happy and content.

[binary suns]

I don't get it either, but I do want someone special in my life, but I don't get why everyone is as obsessed with relationships and sex as they are. maybe it's just the media exaggerating it, but I just want a partner who like, I mean intrinsically being together means we're more important, but that's not why we're partners. I think what fictovore said was pretty key, that in being a partner, intrinsically that puts that person as #1, because that's what being a part of each other's life means. we still have friends and maybe there's a friend who's closer than our partner, but the relationship is different, there's ways in which the partner is different from the friend, a reason why the "better friend" isn't our partner. and that basically means the partner's #1... 

 

like, I think many people want a better half. But I don't think that's necessarily why the partner is #1, I think it just sorta happens that if you have a partner, making sure you get along with them and are in agreement and respect each other's needs and wishes kind of intrinsically becomes a priority.

[Galactic Turtle]

2 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

would you do that for everyone you know though, even casual acquaintances? Because I think for most people, that kind of care/concern is more reserved for close friends and family members (and partner if you have one, of course!). It's possible to still have that level of care with people you're not romantically attached to, of course.. many people care about their very close friends, or even classmates etc, when the necessity arises  I think the difference in a romantic relationship is that it is (or should be, in a healthy relationship) an automatic given, and that makes you both feel really happy and content.

Oh I definitely wouldn't do it for everyone! But we were roommates, we didn't hate each other, and because of that I automatically felt like we had some sort of responsibility for each other particularly as two 18 year olds living away from home for the first time. In that particular situation it seemed like the right thing to do. Nothing else going on on at that moment took priority over getting her back home. But you also said that type of care/concern would be reserved for family/ close friends as well. So I just wonder what makes people so unhappy/not as happy as they think they could be when they don't have a designated partner whether that partner be a romantic or a platonic one.

 

4 minutes ago, Ashes of the phoenix said:

I don't get it either, but I do want someone special in my life

But why? Why does there have to be a someone special? Can't there be lots of special people? I guess on the other hand you could flip it around. Someone could ask me why I'd want friends when I could have family and a romantic partner. Maybe some people want all three, maybe some people want none at all. I guess because my friends have these desires I want to understand them more so I won't say something off color about it.

[Anthracite_Impreza]

21 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

I suspected that. But even amongst lots of aromantic people they seem to just innately desire "that one person" and their ideas surrounding a QPR weird me out just as much as the average romantic relationship. So I do wonder in general how that happens. 

I just chock it down to we're all different and leave it at that tbh. Most people consider my orientation strange but whatever, it is how it is.

[Guest]

I dont desire to be #1 at all times. Sometimes a friend is in trouble and needs you more. Sometimes family needs something. Sometimes you need alone time or something.

 

But... I do desire to feel special. There has to be something more I can point to that is beyond what they have with others. Something that is just ours. 

 

And without that, I feel very unsatisfied in a relationship. 

[Galactic Turtle]

7 minutes ago, Serran said:

And without that, I feel very unsatisfied in a relationship. 

Is there a certain type of special you feel when in an exclusive relationship than in your other close relationships? 

[binary suns]

19 minutes ago, Galactic Turtle said:

 

But why? Why does there have to be a someone special? Can't there be lots of special people? I guess on the other hand you could flip it around. Someone could ask me why I'd want friends when I could have family and a romantic partner. Maybe some people want all three, maybe some people want none at all. I guess because my friends have these desires I want to understand them more so I won't say something off color about it.

there could be lots of special people, I'm open to polyamory. "someone special" by my meaning... it's just picked up lingo. to mean more than just friends, could be nothing more than best friends, I'd be okay with it if I had a few or even just one best friend, and then that was the "closest" relationship so to speak. I say someone special because, they mean enough to me that I want to be around them for long term. could be a best friend. 

 

for me, there is implication that I want a romantic partner. and I do. but for me, to make me happy, I just want at least one best friend in my life. anything more than that would be lovely too. 

[binary suns]

double post

[breezycalm]

I don't get attached to people easily unless they show interest in me, friends or other wise. Its why its hard for me start any solid relationship till I know its worth it. I'm someone who doesn't waste time or energy on people. If someone ditches me, (and its happened) yes it sucks but I move on. In the past I always blamed myself but not anymore. I would love to find someone who I can have a trusting relationship with, I'm willing to compromise on things (except having sex). Finding THAT is the hard part.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Galactic Turtle said:

So I just wonder what makes people so unhappy/not as happy as they think they could be when they don't have a designated partner whether that partner be a romantic or a platonic one.

 

Well for many, many people, there is this innate desire, like ... hmmm... it's like a drive almost, to have that companionship. I've seen you say you can understand that sexual people desire sex even though you don't desire it, so I'm sure if looked at from this perspective, you may be able to understand?

 

I'll try to explain it briefly (I'm in the middle of a huge kitchen spring clean so must rush) but please remember that while this is common, it doesn't apply to EVERY SINGLE romantic person, so some may disagree with me. But anyway:

 

Romantic love is like this drug.. even psychologists sometimes describe it as a drug. And the withdrawals are incredibly painful.. being without it leaves one feeling lonely and empty (sometimes, not always). Your body literally longs for that 'fix', and when you finally get it, you kind of go crazy on it. Take as much of it as you can. Never want to be without it. With this feeling comes a desire for that person to be the center of your world, and for you to be the center of their world. (though in saying that, some romantic people certainly don't take love so seriously and have best friends who are closer than their lover, etc, I'm just speaking in generalizations here). Now, I know you've also asked about aromantics having this desire, and while much of the time I think they may just be confusing what romantic love actually is (meaning, they're actually desiring it without identifying it as romantic), I have actually discovered a platonic feeling that comes close to romantic love. I say 'discovered' only because I've never felt platonic emotion, haha, but over the past 6 months I have  found that I deeply desire the company of two specific people without that being romantic at all. This desire is ALMOST like romantic love.. I desire to be important to them, and to be the person they come to when in need. To be the shoulder they cry on. To be comrades, companions, best friends... like a fantasy version of siblings almost.I have never felt this for anyone else without the romantic attraction. So I guess maybe aromantic people can experience a version of that?

 

And the reason the drive is so strong, whether it's aromantic or romantic, is because there is this actual palpable feeling involved. Like, a deep, sweet, ache that I can't help but desire more of it. I can't help but want it. If I physically knew these two men I want to be 'best friends' with, being near them would feed the emotion (but for now I have to suffice with daydreams). Sorry if I'm not making sense, but what I'm trying to say is that the reason it's so strong and persistent (whether aromantic or romantic) is because actual chemical reactions are happening in the brain/body which are flooding our system with this palpable feeling, an ache, a desire. A want. It's like if you were hungry - you need to eat food to satiate your hungry. Or if you have an itch - you need to scratch it. I can compare this drive to be near someone, and for them to be the center of one's world, to those very physical feelings. You actually hurt when you try to deny the desire, or go without it for too long.

 

So does that help you understand it better, from a theoretical standpoint at least? In the same way a sexual person desires sexual intimacy and may become very unhappy without it, a person who feels this desire for companionship may very well become unhappy without it: but not just anyone will suffice. A person has to exist who they can develop those feelings for, which is why 'regular' friendships just can't fill the gap. Just doing the actions (like you with your roommate) can't fill the gap, because that specific set of chemical reactions has to be happening (just like for many sexual people they can't fuck just anyone, they need that specific person to be able to have truly pleasurable sex).

 

I have to go and finish my kitchen now Y_Y hopefully my answer helps!!

[Galactic Turtle]

36 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

So does that help you understand it better, from a theoretical standpoint at least? In the same way a sexual person desires sexual intimacy and may become very unhappy without it, a person who feels this desire for companionship may very well become unhappy without it: but not just anyone will suffice. A person has to exist who they can develop those feelings for, which is why 'regular' friendships just can't fill the gap. Just doing the actions (like you with your roommate) can't fill the gap, because that specific set of chemical reactions has to be happening (just like for many sexual people they can't fuck just anyone, they need that specific person to be able to have truly pleasurable sex).

It does! However I know once when someone asked why they were feeling some type of way about their first romantic interest, I said whatever it was they were feeling can at least be partially attributed to hormones or other various brain chemicals... but it was taken as an insult to attribute something so concrete as one cause of such a strong somewhat mystic feeling. They also said I was doing a disservice to myself, insinuating that with the right chemical injections someone could fall for somebody (I never said such a thing, but they just accelerated that general premise). 

[Philip027]

3 hours ago, Galactic Turtle said:

But why? Why does there have to be a someone special? Can't there be lots of special people?

It's because not only do people tend to want a special someone, people also tend to want to be that special someone.  As in, singular.  When you are just one of someone's many special someones, you don't feel as special anymore.  You feel easily replaced.  It's just part of jealous, possessive human nature.

 

This isn't universal, but it is a norm.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Galactic Turtle said:

It does! However I know once when someone asked why they were feeling some type of way about their first romantic interest, I said whatever it was they were feeling can at least be partially attributed to hormones or other various brain chemicals... but it was taken as an insult to attribute something so concrete as one cause of such a strong somewhat mystic feeling. They also said I was doing a disservice to myself, insinuating that with the right chemical injections someone could fall for somebody (I never said such a thing, but they just accelerated that general premise). 

Yeah some people can be a bit like that, they prefer to believe it's a 'soul connection' or whatever. I'm not saying it's not, I just personally believe that we have 'soul connections' with many people (our kids, siblings, best friends, romantic partners, even pets!) but that doesn't change what's happening scientifically in your body when you fall in love with someone, or develop a maternal bond with your baby, or would die for your best friend, or want to have sex with someone or whatever. It's all our bodies responding to chemicals created by our brains, part of what's wired into us a result of evolution, survival instincts, social bonding etc. Romantic love, and the desire to be important to someone specific above all else as a result, those are things that have actually been measured by scientists - they take brain scans and blood tests etc to see the difference in someone who is in love compared to someone who isn't, etc. To claim those  studies are irrelevant, or cheapening or whatever, does a disservice to our understanding of such a complex set of emotions. And no that doesn't mean they can be recreated in a bottle sadly.. just as you can't create a chemical mix that will force a maternal bond. A mother will either experience it or she won't, but it's still all hormones and neurons etc created by her brain and body as she breastfeeds and cares for her baby! I think a lot of it has to do with genetics as well.. upbringing, how much affection we had as a kid, past traumas etc. But yeah, it bugs me when people completely disregard the science behind it!!

[Guest]

10 hours ago, Galactic Turtle said:

Is there a certain type of special you feel when in an exclusive relationship than in your other close relationships? 

Yeah. Though, it will probably be hard to explain. So, I will try but might not make a lot of sense. 

 

In my current I feel special to her because she chooses to spend a lot of time with me, tells me things that are very personal that she doesnt tell other people, chooses to spend her life with me (married, moving in together whenever the government lets us), etc. New Years, even though there is a huge time difference, she stays up to say happy new year on my time. Just little silly stuff that shows I mean a lot.

 

I do struggle a little because I dont feel we have much "exclusive", she is more open with me and stuff, but some of the things I would like to be exclusive I cant feel like they are. And a lot of what we do have we cant do when apart and since visas now take ages, I dont feel all that special most the time. But, there is still enough. 

[ryn2]

Adulting is hard, too.  Bills, layoffs, illness, loss, property to keep up, perhaps pets and children to look after, car problems... the list goes on and on.  Knowing you have someone to share those burdens with, someone trustworthy who has similar goals and can be depended upon to do their best by you (as you would in turn for them), can make a big difference.

 

Sure, if you know from the start you want to live your life alone you can make choices (renting, living where there is good public transportation, making sure your doctors and job are nearby) that facilitate being solo... but even then being alone on every holiday as your friends go off with their families and partners might get wearing.

 

Someone who wants to live off the beaten path has to be both extraordinarily self-sufficient and lucky to be able to do so alone forever.