[ace cis-females] Thoughts on "Alpha male" type guys?

[Missa]

Don't like them.  They tend to be arrogant, tend to be controlling or sexist and they're the type of guy that'll cheat. :/ No thanks.

[Guest]

On 9/15/2018 at 6:30 PM, mreid said:

Who has more credibility: someone whose knowledge comes from reading a lot on the subject of sex and whose sources can be verified, or someone whose knowledge comes from "experience" that can't be verified, and might be (and often is) contaminated with personal bias?

Who is saying the sexual people responding aren't also well-read on these issues? My job (I write for an educational website) actually requires extensive reading and research into many of these topics. Your assumption that the sexuals responding here aren't well-read on these issues is actually very offensive. You're pretty much saying ''They have experience but I'm smart because I read a lot so obviously I know more'' when there's just as much chance that we've read as much (and maybe even more) than you in our time as we are all quite a bit older than you. Maybe the reason we are so sure of our knowledge here is because we not only have experience, but also academic knowledge of these topics.

 

4 hours ago, daveb said:

5 hours ago, Chimeric said:

Sociopathic and domineering men are by far and away the vast minority of the male group, including the stereotypical "alpha male" type.

Really? 

Yes 😛 How many domineering sociopathic males have you met on AVEN (as one example) in comparison to the amount of reasonable balanced men here? I know AVEN isn't exactly representative of society at large, but think of university or maybe even your work place or whatever - there are many average, balanced, healthy-minded men around!! The domineering, noisy, jerks just tend to take up a lot of space and make a lot of noise which is why it seems like there's a lot of them!

 

5 hours ago, Chimeric said:

But I suppose this is what happens when one's premise is based on stereotypes. =]

Yes that is the crux of the whole issue in this and many of the other threads about sexual preferences/stereotypes that are active right now.

[Telecaster68]

As a straight male, I have at least had sex with a number of women, all of whom were smart, witty and capable in their every day life. They were not looking for what's being characterised here as an alpha male (which isn't actually what the whole Ayn Rand tendency means by alpha male anyway). They just want a man who's reasonably together and treats them like a person, not an animated collection of erogenous zones, as basic minimum. They would swipe away self styled 'alpha males' without any effort because mostly they're just loud mouthed, insecure, idiots. Actual alpha males in my experience (and I'm not claiming to be one) don't have make a fuss about it; they just exude a quiet confidence and capableness and have no need to prove it to anyone else. It's the difference between the drunken bar room lout telling everyone he was in special forces, and the guys who were actually in special forces. The real ones are always nicer and smarter. 

 

But back to the female preferences... In my experience, a surprising number of these smart, capable women have sub tendencies - I wouldn't put it more strongly - in the bedroom. They know the difference between in bed and out, and precisely because sex is instinctive and atavistic, they are fine with different rules applying. Some of it is the thrill of transgressing their normal principles, some of it is feeling secure enough with their partner that they'll let them take control. 

 

The inverse applies for men I think, too, in being more dominant in bed than in 'real' life. There's a thrill in the transgressive, in the same way.

[ryn2]

13 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

a surprising number 

It’s not really surprising.  Many subs are people whose “regular lives” require them to be in control of the situation at all times.  They enjoy the opportunity - be it in the bedroom or via BDSM - to cede the reins and let someone else be in charge for a change.

 

That goes for subs in general, not just those who are women.

[Telecaster68]

Well, it surprised me, as a well brought up feminist... 

[ryn2]

8 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Well, it surprised me, as a well brought up feminist... 

I suppose most BDSM concepts haven’t made it into general public knowledge...

 

It’s not actually gender-related and has more to do with personality (in the Type A sense, not the MBTI sense) and work/family role.

[gaogao]

On 9/15/2018 at 1:29 AM, FictoVore. said:

fantasies and the things one writes about (in fanfiction and professional fiction) certainly do not always (or even often) reflect someone's desires of something that would actually happen to them.

I really hope no one thinks the fiction I read and write has anything to do with what I want to happen to me.. or what i want to do to anyone else, because most of the stuff I read, including erotic fan fiction, involves graphic bodily harm and death 🤷‍♀️

[Ceebs]

1 hour ago, mreid said:

@Telecaster68 you never wondered why feminists side so much with muslims, who happen to be some of the most patriarchal men on the planet?

Really? That's where you're going with that?

 

14 minutes ago, mreid said:

That's what women always say...

Probably because they generally mean it, yeah.

 

At any rate, also "talking from experience", your theory doesn't pan out for a lot of women. Personally I'm not big on too much submissiveness in or out of the bedroom.

[Ceebs]

Yeah, problem. Provide some support for your theory about feminism and Islam.

 

Aren't you in the U.K.? I've not heard it described as a matriarchal feminist culture before. Monarchical perhaps, not sold on the feminist part.

[Telecaster68]

I'm betting both CBC and I have slept with more women than you, mreid. 

[ryn2]

53 minutes ago, gaogao said:

I really hope no one thinks the fiction I read and write has anything to do with what I want to happen to me.. or what i want to do to anyone else[....]

Same!

[Telecaster68]

5 minutes ago, mreid said:

I don't doubt that, but women pretend less when they are interacting with each other than when they are having sex

And you know this how? 

[Prufrock, but like, worse]

19 minutes ago, mreid said:

I don't doubt that, but women pretend less when they are interacting with each other than when they are having sex

TIL lesbians have some sort of extradimensional acausal sex that does not include interacting with each other.

[ryn2]

15 minutes ago, mreid said:

Sure my family isn't all families, but they are pretty normal in my country, and I know a lot of people like them.

I can’t speak to what’s normal/common/representative in your country, as I know only one other person who’s ever lived there... but, much like what’s common in (parts of) my country doesn’t extrapolate well to other countries (or even other parts of my own), it’s likely not universally applicable across all countries worldwide.

[ryn2]

3 minutes ago, mreid said:

Because I know women. Certainly you can say you know men too despite having never slept with any, right?

I know some women and some

men.  Even from just knowing the ones I do know, I can see that I don’t know all of/all about either.

[Ceebs]

25 minutes ago, mreid said:

A lot of feminists (not all) have this aggressive, provocative attitude about them that's really just concealed masochism.

Oh I knew Freud would make it in here somehow.

 

24 minutes ago, mreid said:

I don't doubt that, but women pretend less when they are interacting with each other than when they are having sex

I'm not even sure I understand fully what you mean by this. Like, I don't need basic English explained to me, it's not a comprehension problem, I just... it seems like it needs to be expanded upon. 

[Ceebs]

9 minutes ago, J. Alfred Prufrock said:

TIL lesbians have some sort of extradimensional acausal sex that does not include interacting with each other.

Hahaha. Burst out laughing at that.

 

Yeah it's a superpower of sorts.

[ryn2]

2 minutes ago, mreid said:

What I meant was that I have never slept with any woman, but from overhearing them gossiping and from being a female I have seen a side of them that they usually don't show men, and that they pride themselves in keeping them in the dark about. Because I am female, females lower their guard around me because they assume I agree with them and we have the same preferences.

How often do you get to have this sort of close, unguarded interaction with women who don’t live in your country?

[Lucinda]

But you said that in the bedroom is where they drop the facade and exhibit their masochistic side.  What are they then hiding from men?

 

Lucinda

 

[Ceebs]

You know, that gossipy, cliquey aspect of female culture was never something I've connected to personally, nor have I found it to be true of all girls/women by any means. I saw it most when I was in high school, and felt alienated by it.

 

Also your experiences are probably fairly limited to women within your family and culture, no?

 

Still curious how you know much of anything at all about how women behave and interact sexually.

[Prufrock, but like, worse]

9 minutes ago, mreid said:

@J. Alfred Prufrock I was talking about non-sexual interactions.

I capitalize on poor phrasing when the phraser seems to be on the side of ill.

 

I could take the easy route and say that you have not spoken to a representation of all women, but only those in your social circle, all of them from the same culture. (Ah, CBC has said this just above because I am slow.) But really I must know why you seem so adamant to say that any woman who disagrees with your preconceptions of what women's preferences are is lying or an extreme outlier, in a thread you created asking women for their thoughts which you started off by saying you disagree with the opinion you think most-or-functionally-all women hold.

 

In general I have to assume that anyone who pushes the "only these asshole alphas are attractive and women who say otherwise are liars" angle is doing so because they want more men to become asshole alphas, because there's no other reason I can think of. And if you think that a being that denies itself and causes others to suffer in the process is the "correct way to be a man," well that speaks volumes on its own. (If you think the opposite of that, then consider how your words may be counterproductive.)

[daveb]

14 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

Yes 😛 How many domineering sociopathic males have you met on AVEN (as one example) in comparison to the amount of reasonable balanced men here? I know AVEN isn't exactly representative of society at large, but think of university or maybe even your work place or whatever - there are many average, balanced, healthy-minded men around!! The domineering, noisy, jerks just tend to take up a lot of space and make a lot of noise which is why it seems like there's a lot of them!

 

Thanks!

 

I misread what I was responding to. To quote Miss Emily Litella, "never mind." 

[SithLord]

On 9/13/2018 at 1:50 PM, mreid said:

When you are told "You just haven't met the right guy." usually the type of guy that's being refered to is this type.

 

There are many alpha male types and not all necessarily sociopathic or domineering, but for the sake of this discussion let's consider the buff gym guy, domineering Mr Grey types, the popular jock stereotype and "patriarchal" types. Basically stereotypical alpha male types.

 

I am trying to find out how the ace cis-females feel towards men who usually like to be the dominant one in the relationship in the traditional "patriarchal" way, in that the women they are with are expect to behave in a more passive stereotypically feminine way.

 

My questions:

1. How do you feel about them?

2. Experiences with them?

3. How do you feel about the idea of being "taken care of" by such types, and playing a passive, stereotypically feminine role?

4. Do you think you might be a bit masculine personality-wise?

 

As for myself:

1. Never been attracted to them, never found them particularly relatable. I always found them mostly too loud and domineering for my liking, so I usually avoid them.

2. Moved in different circles in school and never interacted much. I have an uncle who fits the "patriarchal" stereotype. We don't get along very well, and I always found him over-bearing and obnoxious. Had an older classmate of that type in 5th or 6th grade. We disliked each other.

3. Never found that appealing.

4. Personality-wise, I was always a bit more masculine than feminine, but not too much.

I haven't read all of this thread and normally I would before replying, but it seems long so I'll just reply like this before reading the rest.

As a disclaimer, I don't think I interact with many alpha males. I'm not sure, but I don't really develop deep relationships with any to my knowledge? Maybe just friendships, but I'm not sure.

 

My answers: 

1) The idea of alpha males makes me pause and raise an eyebrow. The idea of someone being alpha in our society alone bothers me because it makes me think of people like Trump who need to feel superior to others, even if that means kicking them to keep them down. Personally, I dislike these people.  But more realistically the one's I've interacted with don't bother me too much unless they expect submissive women. I don't jive with them well if they don't believe in equality between the genders.

 

2) Experiences... not too many to my knowledge. I'm rather asocial and the only popular people I've hung out with long have also all been nerds. 

 

3) If someone said they wanted to "take care of me" in a relationship, I'd be out of that relationship. I am pretty passive and submissive, but I don't like being forced into that role. I like pretending I'm in control, damn it!

 

4) Definitely a bit more masculine. I sometimes go as far as to describe myself as a tomboy before being a girl/woman, demi-girl or non-binary.  It's why my gender on this site is "chick."

[ryn2]

1 minute ago, mreid said:

Not much, but I'm pretty sure the women in my country are not all that uncommon.

I guess it’s just a case of confidence in the broad applicability of your own viewpoint when it comes to other cultures.  Having never participated in women-centric personal conversations with women from Portugal - and having had enough conversations with US and Canadian women to see these types of things do vary by culture and are not universal - I am personally hesitant to speak for Portuguese women.

[Ceebs]

2 minutes ago, sithgirlix said:

As a disclaimer, I don't think I interact with many alpha males. I'm not sure, but I don't really develop deep relationships with any to my knowledge? 

This is my experience as well. I suppose they exist, I'm aware of them occasionally in a very indirect way, but I've had minimal dealings with such people. All of the men in my family and and any I've ever been close to in any other sense are not the alpha types. For sure I'm not saying there aren't any aspects of their personalities that don't drive me nuts, for example one of my uncles is a very type A individual with more than a small dose of elitism going on, but he's still overall a kind and very intelligent individual, quite far from the alpha sort.

 

So yeah, mostly outside the realm of my experience. My family is not like that, and all the men with whom I've voluntarily chosen to have any type of significant connection, platonic or otherwise, have been well-rounded and respectful individuals whose character I admire. For whatever reason, I find it easier to meet people like that than these alphas I hear about. 

[Lucinda]

I am still not clear what psychologically feminine and psychologically masculine means.  Are the majority of women in your country psychologically feminine in that they're bossy and aggressive with a sexually masochistic streak?

 

Lucinda

[ryn2]

Just now, mreid said:

Why is everyone trying to act naive like the things I have described are not common things of human nature?

I can’t speak for everyone but, for me, I’m not acting naive.  The hypothesis you put forward doesn’t fit my experience or what I have heard from the women I know.

[Ceebs]

10 minutes ago, mreid said:

It depends on the man whom they are having sex with.

How many sexual interactions between any people of any sex or gender identity have you been directly involved in or somehow witnessed? You seem to know a lot about how people behave when they have sex.

[Ceebs]

1 minute ago, mreid said:

None. Yes I think I know quite a bit. Not so much what they are doing physically, but what is going through their heads.

Lol. I would think what they're doing physically would be easier to figure out than what's going through their heads. Honestly that's ridiculous. If you've never had sex or even desired to have sex, I have no clue how you could know more than a minimal amount in regards to anyone's psychology surrounding it.

[Prufrock, but like, worse]

16 minutes ago, mreid said:

I don't hold that belief and never gave any indication that I did. I am merely stating something I observe. My words are not counterproductive, it's people who insist on misunderstanding what I say because I say some uncomfortable things.

Why are you saying uncomfortable things? There are 3 usual reasons people cause others discomfort: the speaker doesn't realize it (not the case by your own admission), discomfort as an end in itself, or using it as a tool to prompt the listener towards action or reflection.

 

21 minutes ago, mreid said:

The whole idea behind this thread is that masculinity is attracted to femininity and vice versa.

I'm glad your definition of masculinity boils down to "being an arrogant controlling jerk."

 

22 minutes ago, mreid said:

I'm sure everyone could agree with that.

[nictation seeded]

 

23 minutes ago, mreid said:

So it follows that the most masculine of men are more likely to be attracted to the more feminine of women,and vice versa.

Here is where the entire culture thing comes in. What is considered masculine or feminine is not stable between cultures, or even within the same culture at different times. Also, if the culture considers "attracted to femininity" as part of masculinity and "attracted to masculinity" as part of femininity (which several do), this is basically a tautology.

 

29 minutes ago, mreid said:

Since this whole alpha male - alpha female dynamic is of a sexual nature, will people who are more in between feel less sexual attraction, and therefore be more likely to be asexual?

I am at a loss for words.