I'm a male, but I wish I was a female

[Chimeric]

26 minutes ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

What would you have me say? 

It's not a "gotcha," I just am having trouble wading through the analogies a bit. I was hoping for the truth. =]

[Calligraphette_Coe]

35 minutes ago, Chimeric said:

It's not a "gotcha," I just am having trouble wading through the analogies a bit. I was hoping for the truth. =]

Since we're putting people on the witness stand, why are you only asking these questions in a thread for transwomen?  <------ that's a 'gotcha, just like yours in bold

[Chimeric]

2 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

Since we're putting people on the witness stand, why are you only asking these questions in a thread for transwomen?  <------ that's a 'gotcha, just like yours in bold

Calli, I'm really, honestly just trying to understand your perspective better. It isn't a trap. I've offered a summary of my understanding of our conversation so far (I really do struggle to understand through the analogies), I'm just wondering if I have it summarized accurately or not. If I don't, please correct me, and if I do, please confirm. I asked for your feelings on the subject so obviously there is no right or wrong answer.

 

I asked this question on this thread because I don't browse the gender discussion forums. This thread caught my eye on the front page, and I asked a related question that I had been wondering for some time. I don't believe it's inappropriately placed, but if it is, I trust the moderators will move it.

 

Are you going to answer my question?

[Calligraphette_Coe]

1 hour ago, Chimeric said:

Calli, I'm really, honestly just trying to understand your perspective better. It isn't a trap. I've offered a summary of my understanding of our conversation so far (I really do struggle to understand through the analogies), I'm just wondering if I have it summarized accurately or not. If I don't, please correct me, and if I do, please confirm. I asked for your feelings on the subject so obviously there is no right or wrong answer.

 

I asked this question on this thread because I don't browse the gender discussion forums. This thread caught my eye on the front page, and I asked a related question that I had been wondering for some time. I don't believe it's inappropriately placed, but if it is, I trust the moderators will move it.

 

Are you going to answer my question?

No, because I'm fast losing trust in what you're saying. You say there are no right or wrong answers, but then you say you only want to learn The Truth (TM)?

 

Whose truth? 

 

Really? That answer was beyond insulting. As if  cisnormative privilege was the final arbiter of "The Truth". 

 

And don't EVEN get this thread moved to Hot Box. We know what happens to trans peoples feelings there and ythe wou won't get one word in expressed feelings there from me. I'm not playing that game again. This forum is about the only forum where the playing field is level for trans people. People come here to explore their feelings, and you've turned us into lab rats.

 

FYI, some of us have actual physical scars from violence done on us for our feelings; because of our appearance and the fact that some of us high voices and have curves in the wrong places and we look 'wrong'. Why don't you ask about _those_ feelings?  I have one that took 4 stitches to close, and the only reason it didn't hurt then was because of novocaine.

[fireball0093]

The feeling of believing you are meant to be the opposite gender and that you don't fit into your current body is difficult to explain. The reasons can different for everyone. As I've explained earlier in the thread, some of those reasons for me personally are that I've always felt like a daughter to my mother, a sister to my close friends whom I view as family (I'm an only child), and a female relative to my blood family. My brain feels like it wasn't meant to handle testosterone, I hated when puberty set in and i became more on the masculine side. I felt more like I was meant to be with the women in my school days, I fit in with them better. I longed to be one myself. Over the years when I have looked in the mirror, I hated having facial hair. I hated not having a female body because it just felt right to me to not be a male. I saw a study once that suggests, but does not prove of course, that the amount of testosterone that a fetus receives might also have a slight impact on certain trans folk regardless of their biological gender. When i read that, it to me made sense as a role that plays in how I feel about myself. I've heard other stories that when transgendered women start hrt, something clicks in their brain that gets rid of the depression, the suicidal feelings, the negativity about not having the body they feel meant to have. This is the best way I can explain how I personally feel. Also, please try to keep this thread here too, and try to understand it is not easy in the slightest to fully explain how one feels this way to others who never have

[Chimeric]

18 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

Whose truth? 

Literally yours. I'm asking you to clarify what you're saying about feeling like a woman means to you. I don't mean to insult you.

 

You've told me that not feeling like a man and instead feeling varying degrees of inferior are components of (emphasis to display my understanding that it isn't the complete sum of your life experiences) your understanding of feeling like a woman. Is this an accurate summary?

 

I'm not asking for The Truth (TM) because I know that it differs from person to person, and I know that our individual experiences shape our perspectives on life. I am very well aware of the mental and physical turmoil that not behaving according to gender norms can inflict upon a person. I'm just asking you to please clarify your earlier comments, that's literally it. I don't really know how else I can say this.

 

I'm quite concerned that you're misunderstanding me and getting upset about something that I don't intend to be communicating; I'm not sure what else to say.

 

7 hours ago, fireball0093 said:

Also, please try to keep this thread here too, and try to understand it is not easy in the slightest to fully explain how one feels this way to others who never have

I acknowledge this, I just was curious. I'm looking for all sorts of input, and I know how heated the Hot Box (no pun intended... but now that it's there, I'm chuckling) can get, and I do hope more folks in the gender discussion forum will feel more comfortable getting involved in this conversation if this thread stays here.

 

Thank you for sharing. I realize I'm probably asking impossible questions and I appreciate already all of your patience with me - but how does one feel like a daughter or a sister? Please understand I'm not asking this to be flippant. I am a daughter and a sister, I've been a wife, I am a girlfriend - but I've never thought about what it means to really be these things, other than the fact that I am a female offspring (and thus a daughter), etc.

 

For what it's worth, the testosterone hypothesis makes a lot of sense to me. There are examples of selective hormone uptake or response, uhm... I don't want to call them irregularities, but... irregularities, in all aspects of the endocrine system, and it would make sense to me that the same sort of thing can happen between testosterone (or estrogen) and the brain.

[fireball0093]

1 hour ago, Chimeric said:

Thank you for sharing. I realize I'm probably asking impossible questions and I appreciate already all of your patience with me - but how does one feel like a daughter or a sister? Please understand I'm not asking this to be flippant. I am a daughter and a sister, I've been a wife, I am a girlfriend - but I've never thought about what it means to really be these things, other than the fact that I am a female offspring (and thus a daughter), etc.

 

 

For what it's worth, the testosterone hypothesis makes a lot of sense to me. There are examples of selective hormone uptake or response, uhm... I don't want to call them irregularities, but... irregularities, in all aspects of the endocrine system, and it would make sense to me that the same sort of thing can happen between testosterone (or estrogen) and the brain.

See I already tried to explain the best I can for my personal feelings on it. It's more of just a.. gut feeling, if you will, not quite the wording I'm looking for though. Let me ask you this, and I'll see if I can relate since you're a female. What does feeling like a daughter and sister feel like to you?

 

 

**Mods, can I request this thread stays in this forum, by the way? I would greatly appreciate it if so**

[Calligraphette_Coe]

2 hours ago, Chimeric said:

Literally yours. I'm asking you to clarify what you're saying about feeling like a woman means to you. I don't mean to insult you.

 

You've told me that not feeling like a man and instead feeling varying degrees of inferior are components of (emphasis to display my understanding that it isn't the complete sum of your life experiences) your understanding of feeling like a woman. Is this an accurate summary?

 

I'm not asking for The Truth (TM) because I know that it differs from person to person, and I know that our individual experiences shape our perspectives on life. I am very well aware of the mental and physical turmoil that not behaving according to gender norms can inflict upon a person. I'm just asking you to please clarify your earlier comments, that's literally it. I don't really know how else I can say this.

 

I'm quite concerned that you're misunderstanding me and getting upset about something that I don't intend to be communicating; I'm not sure what else to say.

You have to understand why I'm answering very tangentially-- I'm frustrated and scared that I'll say the wrong thing and there's a lifetime of shame to overcome.  That feeling that I'll never _be_ a woman, but a transwoman, and (because of a cruel twist of fate medically, probably the very thing that made me this way is also the cause of the thing that thrice nearly made me dead) a half-assed one at that.

 

It's not a matter of  feeling inferior, it's a feeling of being vulnerable, something men never seem to understand. It's a feeling of being the shrinking violet because you don't know what else to do. Of being yielding instead of assertive. Of abhoring that lust for power. Of just wanting to be recognized. You don't get a bank account that needs to be expressed in scientific notation by being inferior. But, as happened today, I hacked a problem that everyone else had thrown up their hands and said "That's impossible!"

And my boss and the plant manager went to the CEO and took credit for it, using high resolution macro photography  made with MY equipment and my diagnostic aids, the money for which came out of MY purse. And I"m doing this for people who would fire me LEGALLY in a heartbeat if I came out there.

 

WTF is wrong with me?

[Chimeric]

23 hours ago, fireball0093 said:

What does feeling like a daughter and sister feel like to you?

Not much, to be perfectly honest. I am a daughter, because I'm female offspring, and I'm a sister because I'm a female sibling.

I do remember struggling really hard with this when I was in middle school and early high school, I remember thinking I was doing it "wrong," because I didn't meet the stereotypical "requirements" (in my mind; of course, they aren't actually requirements). Instead of going shopping with my sister or learning how to do my makeup or working a babysitting gig, I was playing video games with my brothers and catching toads and building computers and teaching myself how to code and playing sports. I chopped off my hair and I wore men's clothing... but despite all of that, I don't ever remember thinking that I should have instead been a "son" or a "brother." I just was a pretty shite daughter. I do remember feeling ashamed, like I had screwed it all up, but never that in having done so, I ought to be using the terms for the opposite sex.

Now that I've learned to appreciate how these experiences have shaped me into a pretty neat woman, I don't have any issue with any of the words - but I also don't think that they impart any particular feelings or influence on my life, which is very likely where my confusion arises when folks try to communicate that, indeed, they do. Again, I recognize this may be a hindrance to the discussion on my part.

 

23 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

You have to understand why I'm answering very tangentially-- I'm frustrated and scared that I'll say the wrong thing and there's a lifetime of shame to overcome. 

I see. It's not my goal to make you feel shamed; I'll be more cognizant of this going forward.

 

23 hours ago, Calligraphette_Coe said:

It's not a matter of  feeling inferior, it's a feeling of being vulnerable, something men never seem to understand. It's a feeling of being the shrinking violet because you don't know what else to do. Of being yielding instead of assertive. Of abhoring that lust for power. Of just wanting to be recognized.

May I ask why you think these are not things that men can feel or understand?

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

@Calligraphette_Coe massive hugs

 

@fireball0093 Congratulations, it's fantastic that you're becoming comfortable with yourself and your relationship with your girlfriend sounds beautiful, I wish you lots of happiness in your transition(whether that's a personal one between you, your girlfriend and some family members or with more people in the future-whatever's best for you) and also, you look cute in the profile pic! ❤️ Apologies for my own anime pic   😜  

[Calligraphette_Coe]

1 hour ago, Chimeric said:

 

 

May I ask why you think these are not things that men can feel or understand?

For the same reason why women can't have sexual appetites like men do.

 

There's a spot-on perfect answer in one of Brene' Brown's books, but I can't post it here because it has a derogatory term that's against TOS. It rhymes with 'don't be a wussy'.

 

Yeah, I hate it, too. But I was born into this clown suit and can't find the back zipper.

[Lonemathsytoothbrushthief]

@Chimeric you're asking why they think this is something men can't experience while they've only ended up saying this because you won't accept that they can't explain what makes a mother-daughter relationship or what it means to feel like a woman EITHER. They just are, and so long as you keep holding them to these ridiculous standards of course things are going to be generalised, because they, like you, don't have words to explain what it means to feel like a woman. Most of your words make me think of agender people, since you don't identify as agender why don't you think this is something agender people can experience? I have all kinds of things I use to question my  gender and absolutely none of them are exclusive to a particular identity but that's not the point, the point is they help me translate feelings into words in a way that's specific to me. Those words are only intended to help me explain my experience of gender, they'd completely fail in explaining whether or not another person has the same gender identity just like they're not actually explaining why I have a particular gender identity.

[Calligraphette_Coe]

On 9/19/2018 at 7:00 AM, Lonemathsytoothbrushthief said:

@Chimeric you're asking why they think this is something men can't experience while they've only ended up saying this because you won't accept that they can't explain what makes a mother-daughter relationship or what it means to feel like a woman EITHER. They just are, and so long as you keep holding them to these ridiculous standards of course things are going to be generalised, because they, like you, don't have words to explain what it means to feel like a woman. Most of your words make me think of agender people, since you don't identify as agender why don't you think this is something agender people can experience? I have all kinds of things I use to question my  gender and absolutely none of them are exclusive to a particular identity but that's not the point, the point is they help me translate feelings into words in a way that's specific to me. Those words are only intended to help me explain my experience of gender, they'd completely fail in explaining whether or not another person has the same gender identity just like they're not actually explaining why I have a particular gender identity.

I know what those few minutes in full flatline felt like, but to try to explain my Near Death Experience?

 

Ultimate surrender.

 

And that will only make sense to someone who had one, too.  But at least there was no having to make atonement for it and that was the ultimate escape, that when things got that awful, there was always that. Surrender/Escape.... different sides of the same coin.

 

BOO!

[Chimeric]

I have more to say to this, but you guys have given me a lot to think about. I'm not ignoring, I'm just ruminating. Thank you for your responses so far!

[Guest]

On 9/16/2018 at 11:19 AM, Chimeric said:

if I, as a woman, have no clue what it means to be a woman, despite being a woman... how can someone who isn't female know what it means?

In my experience with this, it seems that trans females feel far more like women than, er, 'bio' women do (and same with trans males feeling like men). I've talked to soooo many non-trans people who don't actually 'get' what it's like to feel like their gender (some even actively dislike being their gender, or even experience dysphoria like I do without actually being trans) but trans people often very strongly seem to actually physically FEEL like a different gender, to the extent they become deeply unhappy and experience actual pain if they can't express that other gender outwardly with clothes and makeup and sometimes even hormones and surgery etc. Then they literally start feeling more 'human' etc when they can outwardly reflect the gender they feel they are on the inside, and be accepted as that gender by society and their friends and family etc. I've also noticed that especially with trans women, they're often far more feminine than many bio ladies - spending a lot of money on pretty makeup, gorgeous dresses, hair extensions, fancy nails etc,and they even act and talk a lot more feminine than many bio women. It does seem to be an actual legit feeling which trans people experience that many 'cis' people don't have about their own gender  

[Calligraphette_Coe]

8 hours ago, Chimeric said:

I have more to say to this, but you guys have given me a lot to think about. I'm not ignoring, I'm just ruminating. Thank you for your responses so far!

Give this some thought: Why did Darwin learn more about natural selection by having spent time on the Galapagos Archipelago, a sort of land that Time Forgot? Then test the theory that your own experiences Heisenberg many of the observations you think are valid at first blush.

 

Oh, and do read Self-Made Man. Better yet, do what she did and pass as a man for a couple of months if you can pull it off. You'll never be the same afterwards.