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glyders

Why does most advice try to make me the jerk?

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James121
1 hour ago, anisotropic said:

this is just to say...

I AM SO CONFUSED NOW

 

😵

I once did but having learned all the things I’ve learnt here, I don’t believe she is.

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Scottthespy
6 hours ago, James121 said:

I think the issue here is that we have to be realistic about how many people are actually willing to open their marriage up and allow their partner to seek sex elsewhere. I would bet my left leg on the percentage being incredibly low! 

So then you are left with...

Have no sex

Leave or

cheat 

Well having no sex is unfair and just as unrealistic as an asexual being expected to have sex every other day. It just doesn’t work.

Then you have leave. But you aren’t just leaving a sexless marriage you are you leaving everything. Children, house, dog, cat, financial stability, potentially friendships...

Then there’s cheat. Certainly not ideal but then again, neither are the others.

 

Lets reverse the leave idea for a second. The person not wanting sex goes! They leave their house, their children, their dog, cat and home comforts. That option is never even entertained on this forum because they (the refusing partner) are quite happy just to say, I don’t want sex and short of forcing someone which no one wants to do, what option do you have?

I've both seen and advised several asexual partners in leaving the relationship. If the relationship isn't working its bad for everyone involved, including children if the parents are letting their emotional distress show. Having grown up myself as the child of people who divorced before they let the relationship turn them bitter and angry at one another, I know that a mature divorced couple make better parents than miserable ones who are still together and letting it effect how the treat each other and the children.

 

I agree that its never an easy situation, especially when finances or dependents and friend circles are involved, but no matter which way you look at it cheating is drastically worse than any other option. Cheating usually leads to a breakup anyway, and a much more emotionally charged one that has even worse ramifications on finances and family, and if you're willing to sleep with some one else I don't understand why you wouldn't at least talk to your partner first to see if they're open to that idea too. There is no logical or emotional defense for cheating, at its very best it's as damaging as the other options are near or at their worst. Both leaving or pursuing an open relationship at least have chances to work out favorably for all involved if you can keep a cool head and talk openly, honestly, and without spite. 

The original poster expressed that he had professional therapists telling him to cheat on his wife because she wouldn't sleep with him. My concern is that professionals are telling people the worst way of handling a situation when there are better options available. This, to me, would be like doctors recommending natural oils instead of vaccinations when asked how to prevent polio.

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Sally
7 hours ago, James121 said:

That relies on the idea that you get caught.

You probably don't realize how awful that sounds.   

 

And when you do get caught (because you will), what are you going to say to whoever finds out -- which will include any number of the people you know, including all those people who you don't want to lose by divorcing?  Because they will talk with each other, and you won't be the hero.  What will you say, "It's my wife's fault I was cheating!"  

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anisotrophic
4 hours ago, James121 said:

I once did but having learned all the things I’ve learnt here, I don’t believe she is.

Oh. I wonder if that actually makes it worse for you. 😕

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Telecaster68
6 hours ago, Sally said:

when you do get caught (because you will

Logically you can't possibly know that everyone gets caught. That's just sententious nonsense like one of those embroidery samplers of Bible verses saying 'beware your sin will find you out'. 

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James121
7 hours ago, Sally said:

You probably don't realize how awful that sounds.   

 

And when you do get caught (because you will), what are you going to say to whoever finds out -- which will include any number of the people you know, including all those people who you don't want to lose by divorcing?  Because they will talk with each other, and you won't be the hero.  What will you say, "It's my wife's fault I was cheating!"  

Firstly to put the record straight I haven’t ever cheated. However, as with most things in life you judge things against your own moral compass. And what I think is this....

 

If my wife who I had regular sex with for the first couple of years continued to want regular sex and I didn’t (for whatever reason) and I continually rejected her and rejected her and excused myself and avoided sex and she ended up in bed with another man I would be really angry and upset. But I’d also think to myself, what did I think was going to happen?

And if I were to say to her “what on earth possessed you to do that” and she said “because you wouldn’t no matter how much I tried” I’d still be angry and upset but equally I’d be realistic and not consider myself a victim of her act because I contributed to the act happening. That’s my honest view if the shoe was on the other foot.

It baffles me as to why people continually reject their spouses and just expect it to have no impact.

90% of affairs that take place are not because people are arseholes, not because they are sex obsessed, not because they are bored, not because they are monsters but because one party is continually rejected and one day they happen across someone who shows them the attention they have been craving from their spouse for years. What do you expect? 

 

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Sally
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Logically you can't possibly know that everyone gets caught. That's just sententious nonsense like one of those embroidery samplers of Bible verses saying 'beware your sin will find you out'. 

I've never actually seen one of those embroidered Bible verses, Tel, because I don't do that Christian shit, but I'll take your word for it.  And it may indeed be sententious nonsense.  Many claims are.  For instance, the claim that asexuals must know that they are asexual and thus should not have married/become partnered with sexuals.  

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glyders

Wow. That hit a bit of a run!

 

Just to clarify that in my case, I believe that my partner didn't know she was ace until long after we'd stopped physical intimacy. I also believe that her having sex to have children wasn't a conscious decision, rather that her hormone levels (or whatever) changed with the broodiness and made it an attractive thing for her. There is even the possibility that the hormone changes due to pregnancy/lactating caused a change to her baseline of sex-apathetic and changed it to sex-averse.  She has also had vertigo since having our first child, having previously been a climber, which is apparently not uncommon.

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James121
1 hour ago, glyders said:

Wow. That hit a bit of a run!

 

Just to clarify that in my case, I believe that my partner didn't know she was ace until long after we'd stopped physical intimacy. I also believe that her having sex to have children wasn't a conscious decision, rather that her hormone levels (or whatever) changed with the broodiness and made it an attractive thing for her. There is even the possibility that the hormone changes due to pregnancy/lactating caused a change to her baseline of sex-apathetic and changed it to sex-averse.  She has also had vertigo since having our first child, having previously been a climber, which is apparently not uncommon.

From what I understand, asexuality is a sexual orientation. It sounds more like your partner has lost her libido. I thinks there’s a distinct difference.

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Philip027
On 2/6/2019 at 1:43 AM, Telecaster68 said:

Logically you can't possibly know that everyone gets caught. That's just sententious nonsense like one of those embroidery samplers of Bible verses saying 'beware your sin will find you out'. 

If we're going to bring "logic" into this you must know that the vast majority of cheaters do a piss poor job of hiding it.  So yeah, in all likelihood, you will be found out sooner or later.

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MrDane
On 9/20/2018 at 1:52 AM, uhtred said:

The importance of things varies with the person.  I generally take the approach of believing someone who says that something is necessary for them to be happy - no matter what that something is. Sometimes of course there may be no practical way for them to have the things that make them happy, but that doesn't make them any less important. 

 

Sometimes the things that make someone happy also come at a great cost (usually not money). Its up to them whether they are willing to pay that cost. 

 

I think all we can do here is to through discussion help people become more self-aware of what things are really important to them so that they can make the best decisions given the reality of their situation. 

...if a kid really wants a dog, but is allergic to it, then the answer is not getting a dog. The result would a worse allergy, perhaps having to get rid of the dog or living with a constant low lung capacity . (Not the rigth term, but will have to do now).

perhaps taking walks with a neighbours dog and playing outside could do the trick. Or getting another sort of pet. 

 

Point is, that the road to happiness/misery can be taken in many ways.

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MrDane
On 2/14/2019 at 9:58 PM, Philip027 said:

If we're going to bring "logic" into this you must know that the vast majority of cheaters do a piss poor job of hiding it.  So yeah, in all likelihood, you will be found out sooner or later.

I beleive, that it is hard to hide something which is of great importance. A breach of trust is not just an agreement which is not kept. If you find it easy to hide, then the importance of keeping it hidden to savour your relationship is probably also a bit off.

 

 

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Telecaster68
On 2/14/2019 at 8:58 PM, Philip027 said:

If we're going to bring "logic" into this you must know that the vast majority of cheaters do a piss poor job of hiding it.  So yeah, in all likelihood, you will be found out sooner or later.

All you can know is about the ones who get found out, and logically, yes they do a piss poor job. 

 

If they don't get found out, they're clearly not doing a piss poor job. 

 

*That* is logic. 

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CBC

Lotta assumptions about cheating and no actual data (and no way to really obtain any), thus "the vast majority" is a meaningless guess. Perhaps the vast majority actually don't get caught at all. Absolutely no way of knowing, thus pointless to speculate upon.

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ryn2

It’s still a risk - discovery, I mean - that needs to factor into the equation.  Someone who does not feel able to cope with the fallout of having an affair should not have one.  It’s the same basic thing as “if you’re unable to cope with addressing an unwanted pregnancy” (in whatever way(s) are available and acceptable to you), “you shouldn’t be having PIV sex.”  Pregnancy is a risk of PIV sex.  Getting caught is a risk of affairs, as is the general degradation of the primary relationship that can come with any breach of trust/barrier to emotional intimacy.

 

Doesn’t mean any given person shouldn’t (or should) do it; just that it’s wise to consider.

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CBC

Indeed, it's kind of a general principle to adhere to in life. Kind of like... if you don't know how to operate a chainsaw, maybe don't attempt to take down that 20-foot tree in your yard. There will always be people who do risky things in stupid ways. We might hear on the local news about the guy who killed himself felling a giant pine; likely not the one who's sitting in front of his fireplace that's stacked with freshly-chopped logs, enjoying some hot cocoa and the Sunday crossword.

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Telecaster68
11 minutes ago, CBC said:

if you don't know how to operate a chainsaw, maybe don't attempt to take down that 20-foot tree in your yard

Based on a true story? Especially, maybe, if it looked like a good idea after a couple of fat ones.

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CBC
2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Based on a true story? Especially, maybe, if it looked like a good idea after a couple of fat ones.

Lol, nope!  Well, not my true story or that of anyone I know, anyway. I've more experience with cocoa, crosswords, fireplaces, and hiding my feelings for people than I do chainsaws. Pretty sure the strangest thing I've done after flooding my bloodstream with THC is give the name 'Bucky' to a large decorative rock in the garden at a local park, probably at about 3.00 am, and give it hug. I still say hi to it sometimes, even sober, and that was nearly a decade ago. I'm a weird stoner, not a stupid one. :D 

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ryn2

I own and do know how to operate a chain saw (many older trees per small amount of yard space).

 

One compounding problem with affairs is that by definition at least one other person knows... so you’re at risk of being found out not just due to your own actions but due to those of the affair partner (and whoever they may choose to tell).  There may be many affairs where one successfully keeps one’s primary partner in the dark but there are zero affairs where no one knows (possibly excepting things that happen online under an alias, glory hole activities, etc., where your identity could still potentially be discovered but not without a lot of work and perhaps a subpoena).

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Traveler40
3 hours ago, roland.o said:

In that story, the sharpest tool in the box was most definitely the chainsaw. 😂

 

The other tool was merely lucky. 

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Philip027
On 2/16/2019 at 9:37 AM, CBC said:

Lotta assumptions about cheating and no actual data (and no way to really obtain any), thus "the vast majority" is a meaningless guess. Perhaps the vast majority actually don't get caught at all. Absolutely no way of knowing, thus pointless to speculate upon.

It's enough to know that it's common, and it wouldn't be known if it wasn't discovered somehow.  Don't think it's anywhere near as speculatory as you and Tele seem to think.

 

Bottom line, most cheaters are terribly bad at hiding it.

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Telecaster68
23 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Bottom line, most cheaters are terribly bad at hiding it.

Bottom line, logically there is absolutely no way you can know this. 

 

It's logically possible that every single person you know who's in a relationship is cheating and hiding it. Unless you have ESP, you can't know otherwise. 

 

I'm also intrigued that frequently asexuals say they had no idea sex was so important or that's what their partners were miserable about. How can they be so oblivious about one thing but super perceptive about another related thing? 

 

I'm sensing a certain amount of morality based confirmation bias here. 

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Philip027

It's called making an educated guess based on evidence provided.

 

Dunno if you're trying to defend cheater behavior or what, but sorry that it usually isn't quite as opaque as you seem to think it is.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

It's called making an educated guess based on evidence provided.

 

Dunno if you're trying to defend cheater behavior or what, but sorry that it usually isn't quite as opaque as you seem to think it is.

A guess. Thanks. That's my point. 

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☆゚°˖* ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ

@James121 For the record a person doesn't need to be sex deprived in their relationship to start cheating. My first husband was super great at cheating even though he got plenty of sex in our relationship. I still don't know why he was continuing to cheat throughout our marriage, maybe he likes the attention or maybe he was just a really crappy human being.  Who can say?

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CBC
25 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

It's called making an educated guess based on evidence provided.

 

Dunno if you're trying to defend cheater behavior or what, but sorry that it usually isn't quite as opaque as you seem to think it is.

What's the "educated" part, though? What specific information is leading you to believe that the majority of cheaters are bad at hiding it?

 

And I'd be very willing to defend it in certain circumstances, yes.

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Philip027
22 minutes ago, CBC said:

What's the "educated" part, though? What specific information is leading you to believe that the majority of cheaters are bad at hiding it?

The frequency at which you hear about it having happened.  To me, it's a lot.  And if I'm hearing about it, well, it's not exactly a well kept secret anymore, is it?

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ryn2

To me it (discovery) is just a risk you have to factor in... especially because you can only control your own end of things.  You can’t control how cautious the affair partner is, how skillfully people on their end may snoop, or what they may do if they become angry with you/are put in a desperate situation.

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SCPDX
On 2/5/2019 at 6:40 PM, anisotropic said:

Oh. I wonder if that actually makes it worse for you. 😕

I’m pretty sure I’m  in the same boat as @James121and it is worse - just took me a while to articulate why. The deepest fear I have is that if I were to leave, my wife might feel the need to find another relationship. To do that, she’s going to need to find a way to start having sex again. And she’ll dig deep and find it, even though she wasn’t able/willing to do that for me. 

 

I’m not saying it’s a *rational* fear. 

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