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Why does most advice try to make me the jerk?


glyders

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Thank you everyone for your support and advice.

 

I agree communication is key. We do communicate, but after years together and lots of driving into this particular subject, there is little more to say. And one of the strong things in our relationship is that we don't need to - we know we know.

Of course it is a heavily nuanced thing. To explain all I know and understand and feel about it would take a book. My simple statement was what it boils down to in the context of this thread.

 

To fill in some details for clarity, as some respondents seem to be in conflict...

Growing up, she couldn't understand why anyone would want sex, other than to procreate. She put it down to societal pressure. As she came to believe that others did actually want to do it, she felt she was abnormal or broken. So she confirmed.

Several sexual relationships (far more than me) later, we met. By then, she really wanted children. She seduced me. We had what seemed to me to be a 'normal' sexual relationship - certainly better than anything I'd had in my previous two relationships. She was frequently the initiator. Then we had our first child and things stopped. That seemed a normal thing as we were both tired, etc.

After a year or two, for the first time she told me she didnt like sex. By that point, it wasn't indifference, it was repulsion. But she had always wanted two children so she still had to do it. So we went for scheduled sex.

Then we had our second child and it stopped. A couple of years later, she read about asexuality and realised that had been her all her life. So now she identifies as asexual rather than broken and our life together is a lot easier.

 

As for me, life is what it is. We love each other, we have two children we love, we have other things. And we are share an intellectual level and outlook, which is very important to us.

Of course I miss sex, but it is but one part of life and one I was lucky to experience for a year or so. I still get to share her mind.

Sometimes it gets on top of me, but only when I'm down anyway. The last couple of days have been very hard, with negative thoughts spiralling in my head. I had a bit of a cry on her yesterday and I'm building back up now.

I don't blame her at all - she was the victim of societal pressure. Perhaps that is why I am so frustrated that all of the professional advice was so insensitive to her. Before she identified as asexual, not a single professional mentioned it as a possibility. Afterwards, even knowing her repulsion, they either nodded at asexuality and still suggested compromise or went down the trying to 'cure' her route.

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Thought the last post was getting too long, so put this in its own...

 

I'm actually rather jealous of my partner for having her identity. Silly things mostly, like having an ace flag pin badge.

Being proud of being a hetero cis allo male isn't easy. If you throw in being celibate though you'd rather not be then it gets worse. The hijacked incel movement sours everything. 

It's a bit like being proud to be English. BNP etc. made that difficult. One of the few things I can think of positive to say about football is that it reclaimed the flag from them.

 

This forum is one of the few places I've found where expressing my sexuality and frustration is comfortable. Ironically, as an atheist, the other place is talking to our vicar (a mutual friend of me and my partner).

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11 hours ago, Sally said:

I'm really impressed by how sensitive he appears to be toward his wife's feelings, and the lack of bitterness he seems to feel.  

Thank you.

I can be an ass sometimes, but generally I hope I am a nice person.

 

I was very bitter at first, when she couldn't explain what was wrong. Once she realised and accepted that there wasn't anything wrong with her, that she was simply asexual, that made it a lot easier.

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@glyders I think a lot of professionals (like many people earning their bread and butter) don't apply their mind to what may appear to them as a common problem. "Wife refusing sex, seduce her!" and from there they have a template of helpful tips or something and may have missed her asexuality or like many sexuals, heard it but not understood. You probably should not waste money further on them.

 

Stray thought: It could be interesting to have a community maintained directory of asexuality friendly therapists or something. At least professionals who don't spend your money to educate themselves about asexuality while your problems go unaddressed.

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12 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

Stray thought: It could be interesting to have a community maintained directory of asexuality friendly therapists or something. At least professionals who don't spend your money to educate themselves about asexuality while your problems go unaddressed.

That is a very good idea.

 

Someone mentioned bereavement, and that really hit home. That is exactly it. Life carries on and is mostly good, then something pushes that hollow inside to the front if your awareness.

Perhaps bereavement counselling might be a better fit than relationship or sex counselling? Doubt many would understand, though.

 

Don't worry. I gave up spending money on them a while ago.

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3 hours ago, glyders said:

Being proud of being a hetero cis allo male isn't easy. If you throw in being celibate though you'd rather not be then it gets worse. The hijacked incel movement sours everything. 

It's a bit like being proud to be English. BNP etc. made that difficult. One of the few things I can think of positive to say about football is that it reclaimed the flag from them.

In my opinion, being "proud" of being anything is dumb.  Being gay, being trans, being American, whatever.  You did nothing to accomplish those things; that's just how you are.  All it took was being born, and that was your parents' job.  But even then, your parents didn't choose those traits for you.

 

It only makes sense to me to be proud of something if you actually did something to make it happen, if that was your own accomplishment.

 

I could never feel a sense of pride for being ace.  I did nothing to earn that.  It's just my nature.

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Well, yeah, I do think that trying to shame someone for something they had zero control over is even more dumb.

 

For me though, the proper retort to someone trying to shame me for being ace (not that I've ever actually had that happen; I take steps to try not to hang out with intolerant jerks) wouldn't be to try to say that I'm actually proud of it, because I'm not (and I feel it would carry a slight air of smug elitism, regardless).  Rather, all that I can really say is that I didn't choose this trait, it's just how things are.  If they can't accept that, they aren't worth my time.

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

It's like saying Why do you have blue eyes? or I'm proud I have freckled skin....it's just a thing. We're all different. Being angry for any of those traits just hurts the angry person.

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 8/27/2018 at 3:31 AM, glyders said:

But, again, I genuinely am trying to understand why just dealing with it seems to be so ignored.

Just "dealing" with it is not sustainable for many sexuals, because of the very real need for a marriage that involves both emotional and physical intimacy.  For many, that's what defines a marriage, that's what makes marriage unique.  I know that's the obvious/uncomplicated response.  But this is coming from a girl who doesn't like ketchup on her fries, who doesn't like melted butter with her lobster, and who doesn't like ice cream on her apple pie.  Just keeping it simple and real here.

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On 8/26/2018 at 7:30 PM, glyders said:

My partner is ace, I am not. She came out after our second child, and we haven't been physically intimate since (almost 7 years ago). She says she only sees the point of sex in order to get children and now she has the two she wanted.

 

I have read quite a bit looking for advice, talked to professionals, etc. Pretty much all the advice I've received is unbelievable that a health or relationship guidance professional could give it.

Essentially it seems to boil down to two options:

1. Convince my partner to compromise. Well, how horrible is that? She doesn't want anything to do with physical intimacy, nothing. So, they are suggesting I somehow cajole/emotionally blackmail/whatever her to do something physical that she doesn't really want to do. Now that has a name...

2. Have an affair/leave. Well again, not a very nice thing to do. How would people react if I left her because she had an accident that left her scarred? There's no difference, really.

 

So why does virtually all the advice centre on those avenues? Why so little on anything positive I can do to cope better myself? Perhaps there isn't anything, but then at least an acknowledgement of that would be better than ignoring it.

I guess that perhaps it is because they still see it as an illness rather than an orientation and so she either needs to be cured or as a hopeless cause.

A bit simple, those advice givers! 

1. Convince her to compromise? It could be expressed differently! Try to explore if there are anything which she can be okay with participating in, whiich gives you a feeling of sexy times. Massage, hand job, toys...

2.have an affair/leave? Compiled into one as “be a jerk and lie to the love of your life or butt out”

I would vote for a few other options:

3.agree upon opening the relationship and let you get partnered sex elsewhere. (Could be under arranged forms, like swinger clubs, finding a regular lovemaking-person) one-nigth-stands and prostitutes are a possibility, but I wouldnt like that game. To many sad stories.

4.tell her, that you go to get sex, though she dislikes, and if she chooses to stop the relationship, then it is not just your decision because of your steathly manoveurs. I think you have the moral rigth to seek sex in your life  unless it was a firm agreement from the beginning. “There will be no sex, ever!”

5.masturbation-galore (not always sufficient in terms of meeting your needs. No points on the intimacy-scale. Doesnt keep my depression away)

6.abstinence/celibacy (ask a catholic priest for guidance about that! (Joke!))

7.find a hobby. (Even hardcore drug-crazed meth-addicts, who constantly chases the next fix, cant really replace their sexual desire, with their ‘meth-hobby’ .They may not be able to feel the love anymore, though)

 

 

 

 

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On 9/16/2018 at 1:27 AM, NapoliGirl said:

Just "dealing" with it is not sustainable for many sexuals, because of the very real need for a marriage that involves both emotional and physical intimacy. 

I suppose I don't buy that it is a need. Food, water, air are needs; sex is a desire. A very strong desire, one where a lack aches and tears at you, but it isn't needed to live. After all, I went for many many years without it before finding my partner.

I don't really accept the idea of a right to be happy, either. Of course one should avoid deliberately making other people unhappy, indeed actively try to make them happy. But that isn't the same as a right to be happy. 

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4 minutes ago, glyders said:

I suppose I don't buy that it is a need. Food, water, air are needs; sex is a desire. A very strong desire, one where a lack aches and tears at you, but it isn't needed to live. After all, I went for many many years without it before finding my partner.

Semantics, I guess, is your sticking point?

A need to sustain life is how you define a need.  Okay.  In that sense then sure, otherwise I would have died right after my honeymoon! (Me and everyone else who "needs" these connections in their relationships. )

 

But one can define needs more broadly.  

 

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I see my reaction to lack of sex as weakness. My desire for it makes my partner unhappy, so if I was a good enough person I'd be able to bury it. Sometimes I can manage it, go a few days without that hollow feeling in my stomach. 

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I guess I see it more like SAD (seasonal affective disorder).  And no, I don’t mean to imply the desire for sex is pathological; it’s just the most comparable example I can come up with.

 

People with SAD suffer when they don’t get enough hours of daylight.  They feel depressed, have trouble concentrating, and are generally less effective.

 

They don’t need daylight to survive, but they need it to thrive and to enjoy optimum mental health.

 

I don’t know that it’s true for all sexuals, but some of the sexuals who post here describe issues similar to SAD symptoms if they don’t have sex regularly.

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1 hour ago, glyders said:

I suppose I don't buy that it is a need. Food, water, air are needs; sex is a desire. A very strong desire, one where a lack aches and tears at you, but it isn't needed to live. After all, I went for many many years without it before finding my partner.

I see it as a need comparable to like, talking? In that you certainly won't die without talking, but if your partner has no interest in talking to you and actively avoids it for days or even weeks on end, then you're missing a very emotionally vital aspect of your relationship even if no one actually died as a direct result of just not speaking. Sex is like that for many sexual people in a relationship, I think. You can't just snatch something as integral to the human condition as speaking away from a person and expect that everything will be okay, if that makes sense??

 

Sex isn't a 'need' or even that important to me personally, but I think for many sexual people talking is a good comparison to the level of 'need' for sex. You can survive just fine without talking.. but the lack of it will lead to a bit of a mess in the long run.

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It also seems to vary in importance and impact from person to person.  I’ve seen people here use the conversation analogy, but I’ve also seen others talk in a more SAD-similar way about how not having sex makes it hard for their bodies to regulate brain chemistry and leaves them depressed.

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2 hours ago, glyders said:

I suppose I don't buy that it is a need. Food, water, air are needs; sex is a desire. A very strong desire, one where a lack aches and tears at you, but it isn't needed to live. After all, I went for many many years without it before finding my partner.

I don't really accept the idea of a right to be happy, either. Of course one should avoid deliberately making other people unhappy, indeed actively try to make them happy. But that isn't the same as a right to be happy. 

Imagine putting someone in a dimly lit room.  You provide food, water, place to dispose of waste. The room temperature is regulated to be withing a normal comfort range.

 

They won't die.  But this is essentially solitary confinement and many people believe that if used for a long time it constitutes torture. 

 

People "need" things to be happy that they don't need to live.  Lack of those things is a serious issue .

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51 minutes ago, uhtred said:

People "need" things to be happy that they don't need to live.  Lack of those things is a serious issue .

That is the essence.  Thank you, @uhtred.for this uncomplicated, pure, post. Why do we need to make things so f***ing complicated??

 

I submit exhibit A, the thousands of posts from so many sexuals in these forums, so desperately trying to make things work, so terribly unhappy, so seriously in "need"!!!

Let's just cut the s**t already.

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Assuming the profile and posts are accurate, the poster debating whether it’s really a need... is sexual, not ace failing to understand the importance.

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The importance of things varies with the person.  I generally take the approach of believing someone who says that something is necessary for them to be happy - no matter what that something is. Sometimes of course there may be no practical way for them to have the things that make them happy, but that doesn't make them any less important. 

 

Sometimes the things that make someone happy also come at a great cost (usually not money). Its up to them whether they are willing to pay that cost. 

 

I think all we can do here is to through discussion help people become more self-aware of what things are really important to them so that they can make the best decisions given the reality of their situation. 

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I hope I'm not offending people; I'm talking purely about how I feel about myself and do not intend to do anyone else down.

As an intelligent, self-aware human being, I feel I should be able to rise above my desires. If I can't and it hurts someone else, then that shows that I am not a good person.

 

Before anyone brings up Maslow, I am familiar with the pyramid. However, the further up you go, the more tenuous calling it a need seems to me. Sure, they are all things that help make life better, but people do live happy, productive lives without some of them.

 

And, for the avoidance of doubt, I am in a very mixed relationship - she is sex-repulsed and my ideal would be several times a day.

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8 hours ago, glyders said:

I hope I'm not offending people; I'm talking purely about how I feel about myself and do not intend to do anyone else down.

As an intelligent, self-aware human being, I feel I should be able to rise above my desires. If I can't and it hurts someone else, then that shows that I am not a good person.

 

Before anyone brings up Maslow, I am familiar with the pyramid. However, the further up you go, the more tenuous calling it a need seems to me. Sure, they are all things that help make life better, but people do live happy, productive lives without some of them.

 

And, for the avoidance of doubt, I am in a very mixed relationship - she is sex-repulsed and my ideal would be several times a day.

Why should you rise above your desires?  Desire drives all sorts of actions, some  of them wonderful.   In a few billion years the sun will burn out, and a few trillion the universe will be cold and dead.  The end point is the same, its how you get there that matters.

 

What point is productivity without happiness, an how can you be happy if your desires are not met? 

 

Some people are happy without things that *other* people desire, but that is different. There are many things some people desire, that I do not - no reason for me to seek those things. I should put effort into seeking the things that *I* desire. 

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Different people put different things at different points on the priority list, though.  It’s another place where I don’t think there’s one right/best answer for everyone.

 

Those who place happiness at the top of the priority list will make different choices and suffer differently from different sacrifices than those who prioritize things differently.

 

I don’t think it’s as simple as lumping those differing priorities into “it’s still really happiness you’re putting first; it’s just that [different priority] makes you happy.”

 

I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing, uhtred; I’m generalizing based on things I’ve seen over time across other threads.

 

I’ve found it’s sometimes difficult for people with differing top priorities to understand where one another are coming from.

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8 minutes ago, uhtred said:

Why should you rise above your desires?

I think the point of conflict is when one's desires infringe upon another's.  Once that happens, a lot of people can't just be perfectly "okay" with stepping over other people just to get what they want.

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On 9/20/2018 at 4:05 PM, Philip027 said:

I think the point of conflict is when one's desires infringe upon another's.  Once that happens, a lot of people can't just be perfectly "okay" with stepping over other people just to get what they want.

Exactly.

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It sounds like your wife used you to get what she wanted, namely two children. Her belated honesty about her sexual orientation was remarkably conveniently timed for her. At any rate, if she has given you permission to seek sex elsewhere, it would not make you a jerk to take her up on the offer, although it sounds like casual sex on the side would not meet your emotional needs.

 

Friends who live on different floors of the same house and parent two children together don't sound much like a married couple. That sounds more like an amicably divorced couple with a good coparenting arrangement. If you were to just make it official and actually have an amicable divorce with a good coparenting relationship that would not make you a jerk, at all. That would be a completely reasonable and decent thing to do under the circumstances. That way you could have essentially the same platonic relationship with her that you have now while finding someone more compatible to have a romantic and sexual relationship with.

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  • 1 month later...
Alone with someone

I really see a lot of the same advice as the original poster. Now I will qualify that by saying that most of it was not from this site. The problem seems to stem from a mutual inability to truly grasp the position of the other side. Most of the articles I’ve read, and there have been a lot, come from the point of view of the ace author. Common suggestions are:

 

1. Engage in masterbation more: Let me tell you, my asexual friends, why this ain’t gonna cut it. I shall use your cake analogy if I may. Imagine you want a piece of really good cake. Moist, perfect ratio of frosting to cake, the kind of cake you see in cooking magazines. Now imagine you are only given a hostess cupcake. The cupcake will do for now, but a steady diet of cupcakes only makes the desire for that wonderful gateaux even stronger.

 

2. Try an open relationship: This only works if your partner is willing. In my case my partner is asexual, but not aromantic. She still believes in marital fidelity because she does not need to look outside of the relationship to fill a relationship based need. Therefore, by that standard any extramarital activity I engage in is cheating. 

 

3. Find a sexual compromise: Okay, most of us that are sexual would like our partner to be more intimate in a physical way. Some of us have sex abhorrent partners. Some of our life mates are lesser degree aces. At the stage in my relationship im at now, im not going to pressure her into sex. The last time we tried to do anything remotely physical I couldn’t even maintain an erection because I knew she was really happy doing it. We’re not all selfish quasi-rapists, although I’m sure there are those out there too.

 

4. Leave: Um...no. I think many of us that are in a position like the original poster and myself have insuperable bonds with our partners ranging from the fiscal to the parental and all points between. Also leaving would needs be explained. I don’t want to look the bad guy, leaving because she didn’t want me, and I don’t want to out her to anyone else (her family, our friends, the children) if she’s not ready to cop to her sexual identity.

 

5. Learn to readjust where your sense of fulfillment comes from: This is my favorite. I’m sorry but this particular statement is just as selfish as me looking at an ace and saying “find a way to feel sexually aroused.” Those of us who are sexual, are wired to be sexual, the same way an asexual person is wired to not be sexual. We can try to learn to live with out it, but we can’t just take up tennis to fill that physical need. 

 

I’m sure that there is some cogent way to deal with a mixed relationship, but I don’t know what it is. I understand her struggle, I’ve struggled with my own pansexuality for years before coming to grips with it. I just want to find some decent advice that doesn’t tell me to either suck it up, be a douche, or leave. Is that too much to ask?

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3 hours ago, Alone with someone said:

I just want to find some decent advice that doesn’t tell me to either suck it up, be a douche, or leave. Is that too much to ask?

Most people on both sides of the equation would love a solution that makes both partners happy enough... but those really are the  options for (both halves of) mixed couples.  Even the happiest ones have typically gotten there by a combo of sucking up and being the least douchy douche possible.

 

Nothing’s going to magically make the sexual ace or the ace sexual, unfortunately.

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  • 2 months later...

Just checking in, really. Wish I could predict when things were going to start hurting again, but I know I'm in a bad place when I find myself back here.

 

I guess I don't find any of the advice of leaving and finding someone else, or staying and finding someone else, any help because that ain't gonna happen. I'm not the kind of person with the looks, personality or ability to start conversations that will get someone else. I'm amazingly lucky I have my partner even with the problem we have.

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On 8/26/2018 at 6:30 PM, glyders said:

She says she only sees the point of sex in order to get children and now she has the two she wanted.

And she was ok with sex to get what she wanted? 

 

On 8/26/2018 at 6:30 PM, glyders said:

So why does virtually all the advice centre on those avenues?

There’s one more option which is for her to allow you to fuck who you like. Most spouses won’t do that because for some reason they are against having sex but against allowing their partner to seek sex elsewhere so open marriages are rare.

 

The bottom line is that this should be a crime. To steal someone’s life like this, to have sex with them under false pretences of being comfortable but then announce otherwise after the desired children have arrived is comparable with some of the worst crimes one can commit.

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