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confused about my husbands orientation

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ryn2
22 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

If someone can deliberately betray their relationship, they don't get that "moral high ground" over someone not meeting their needs due to inability. For that matter, deliberate dishonesty cannot be respected or recommended. It is basically like saying "You know that irritating old lady who insulted you? If you catch her on a lonely street, you can easily get away with snatching her purse. Just wear a mask and she won't know it was you and she can't chase and catch you." It may be possible to execute successfully and is probably the modus operandi of countless pickpockets and the old lady may indeed be one of those irritating ones, but it will trouble most consciences and is very hard to recommend, regardless of the chances of success. And snatching a purse deliberately does not become an appropriate response to her being irritating or insulting.

This.  Asexuality (unless it’s willfully hidden to snare someone) isn’t a deliberate breach of trust.  Infidelity is.

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anamikanon
2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It is about choosing not to engage with a fundamental, painful issue in the relationship. 

Even when not about sex, if the spouse does not have the ability to engage in that kind of a discussion, it is still not deliberate. For example, you have often said you suspect your (ex?)wife is on the autistic spectrum. My ace probably is too. There are a lot of things he is not able to address. But this is not deliberate but a lack of capacity for it. It still does not compare with deliberately deceiving them. An appropriate response to a relationship that is no longer loving (or never was) is discontinuing it. For that matter, an appropriate response to a deliberate wrong too is not another wrong, but choosing justice in a manner that fits. For example, the answer to a cheating partner is not cheating by the betrayed spouse.

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ryn2
7 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It is about choosing not to engage with a fundamental, painful issue in the relationship. 

...which was my point about step 2) in your list above.

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Telecaster68
Just now, anamikanon said:

if the spouse does not have the ability to engage in that kind of a discussion, it is still not deliberate.

They're adults. They have the ability to engage, or at least make an effort to engage, rather than avoid.

 

1 minute ago, anamikanon said:

It still does not compare with deliberately deceiving them.

It's just as distancing.

 

1 minute ago, anamikanon said:

An appropriate response to a relationship that is no longer loving (or never was) is discontinuing it.

Or work on it, if it once was loving.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

...which was my point about step 2) in your list above.

I'm lost now.

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ryn2
9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Raising it at (2) just jumps to (4) more quickly. 

 

But that wasn't my point. My point was that sexual partners mostly don't know what they're getting into, and asexual partners tend to be avoidant, going by posts on Partners and Allies.

There’s a lot less fuel for step 4) without prolongation at steps 2) and 3).

 

Someone can only be persistently avoident in a relationship with the cooperation of their partner.  Like anything else in a relationship, you have to weigh it out and determine whether or not it’s a deal-breaker.

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anamikanon
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

They're adults. They have the ability to engage, or at least make an effort to engage, rather than avoid.

Most adults without legs can't dance. Sure, they can try and some may even succeed in innovative ways, but the lack of dancing can't really be blamed on avoidance or lack of effort. Similarly, there are a lot of adults with mental problems who cannot deal with something or the other..

 

Just now, Telecaster68 said:

It's just as distancing.

Sure, but it isn't deliberate, whereas infidelity is. 

 

Just now, Telecaster68 said:

Or work on it, if it once was loving.

Infidelity is really not condusive to working on it at all. Recovering from the additional trauma of infidelity can take years. And even "successful" infidelity, as in not getting caught STILL puts the cheating partner in a place where they cannot be open about crucial things - this isn't condusive to getting closer either.

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ryn2
9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It's very much felt as a breach of trust by their straight partners. It hurts the same.

That doesn’t make it the same, though.

 

9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The only married gays I know are married to their gay partners.

I know some who have opted to stay with their straight partners, one in an open relationship but the others still in monogamous relationships.  Their reasons vary widely.

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Telecaster68
Just now, ryn2 said:

 Like anything else in a relationship, you have to weigh it out and determine whether or not it’s a deal-breaker.

Yes. Like infidelity, perhaps...

 

1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

Someone can only be persistently avoident in a relationship with the cooperation of their partner.

You can't physically make someone discuss something, or take actions they've promised. 

 

The only option is to leave, and we're back to the sexual picking an option given to them by the asexual.

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ryn2
15 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Doesn't matter. The point is that neither partner have much of a choice.

...which was my original point.

 

Asexuality is not a choice; infidelity is.  Both may make people very unhappy but that doesn’t make them comparable overall.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

Similarly, there are a lot of adults with mental problems who cannot deal with something or the other..

You're saying all asexuals who don't want to discuss their relationship with their partners have mental problems?

 

3 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

it isn't deliberate, whereas infidelity is. 

It is deliberate. A choice is being made. Unless, as you say, all asexuals who don't want to talk about their relationship have mental problems.

 

5 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

Infidelity is really not condusive to working on it at all.

Not being able to discuss things with your partner is even less conducive to working on anything. 

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Asexuality is not a choice; infidelity is.  

One.

 

More.

 

Time.

 

I.

 

Am.

 

Not.

 

Talking.

 

About.

 

Asexuality.

 

I.

 

Am.

 

Talking. 

 

About.

 

Avoiding.

 

The.

 

Issue.

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ryn2
5 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

You can't physically make someone discuss something, or take actions they've promised

You can’t, but you can put your foot down and insist on counseling, put an end point on how long you will tolerate it, etc.

 

6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The only option is to leave, and we're back to the sexual picking an option given to them by the asexual.

It’s an option created by the situation, not one selected/offered by the asexual.

 

To borrow the no legs analogy, a partner with no legs can’t offer the option of growing new ones in order to dance better.

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ryn2
4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

One.

 

More.

 

Time.

 

I.

 

Am.

 

Not.

 

Talking.

 

About.

 

Asexuality.

 

I.

 

Am.

 

Talking. 

 

About.

 

Avoiding.

 

The.

 

Issue.

If avoiding the issue isn’t acceptable to you, don’t tolerate the partner doing it.  Some partners may lack the skills to do better/otherwise, but it’s still up to you whether to put up with it or not.

 

E.g., a partner’s alcoholism isn’t your fault, but whether or not you opt to tolerate the resultant behavior is still up to you.

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Telecaster68
Just now, ryn2 said:

You can’t, but you can put your foot down and insist on counseling, put an end point on how long you will tolerate it, etc.

 

It’s an option created by the situation, not one selected/offered by the asexual.

  

To borrow the no legs analogy, a partner with no legs can’t offer the option of growing new ones in order to dance better.

The asexual could also offer the option of 'not avoiding the situation'.

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ryn2
9 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It is deliberate. A choice is being made. Unless, as you say, all asexuals who don't want to talk about their relationship have mental problems.

In cases where there aren’t extenuating circumstances, like mental illness, both partners are allowing it to persist.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

If avoiding the issue isn’t acceptable to you, don’t tolerate the partner doing it.  Some partners may lack the skills to do better/otherwise, but it’s still up to you whether to put up with it or not.

 

E.g., a partner’s alcoholism isn’t your fault, but whether or not you opt to tolerate the resultant behavior is still up to you.

So a partner choosing to avoiding the issue, or a partner choosing to engage in infidelity, both end up in killing the relationship because they're the more comfortable course of action for that individual. This is why I'm saying they're equally serious.

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ryn2
1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

The asexual could also offer the option of 'not avoiding the situation'.

...and if the couple communicates effectively this - again, where there aren’t extenuating circumstances like mental health challenges, autism, etc. - typically isn’t an issue.

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ryn2
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

So a partner choosing to avoiding the issue, or a partner choosing to engage in infidelity, both end up in killing the relationship because they're the more comfortable course of action for that individual. This is why I'm saying they're equally serious.

The former, both partners are aware of and play a part in allowing.  There is no breach of trust, secrecy, etc.

 

They’re both problems.  They just aren’t the same.

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Telecaster68
2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

In cases where there aren’t extenuating circumstances, like mental illness, both partners are allowing it to persist.

But not from an equal place. The asexual could choose to work on the relationship, or walk away, or stick with the stalemate. The sexual can't. They can only walk away or stick with the stalemate.

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anamikanon
1 minute ago, Telecaster68 said:

Yes. Like infidelity, perhaps...

Let me put it like this. If you think infidelity is an idea worth considering, it would make me wonder about how "flexible" you can get about commitments when they are a hindrance to your wishes and what vulnerability you will throw back in my face if I dare have a problem with it. It will make me trust you less on anything I have to count on you for, because I won't know if you'll really come through or act as per your whims using some technicality of discontent with our agreement. And this is without being married to you.

 

The problem with infidelity being on the table as a consideration comparable with other honest choices is that it speaks of an inability to tell right from wrong or a certain coldbloodedness about breaking trust for personal interest or remorseless manipulation of others to achieve own ends. Perhaps like that, it is your inability too, to care about the consequences to another - or perhaps even needing to do it on someone who hurts you. In clinical terms, it is called sociopathy (this does not mean the same thing in psychology as it does in Hollywood films and fiction books). Like your partner's inability to address your needs. The problem with that, of course is much bigger than getting laid, because it can severely disrupt relationships in ways infidelity won't help, unless it is serial separate encounters without relationships.

 

12 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

You're saying all asexuals who don't want to discuss their relationship with their partners have mental problems?

Only if you are saying all sexuals who get refused by aces who also refuse to discuss should have an affair. What is this "all" business?

 

12 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It is deliberate. A choice is being made. Unless, as you say, all asexuals who don't want to talk about their relationship have mental problems.

 

Not being able to discuss things with your partner is even less conducive to working on anything. 

Sure. No one is forcing you to be in a relationship with an incapable partner. 

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Telecaster68
3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

...and if the couple communicates effectively this - again, where there aren’t extenuating circumstances like mental health challenges, autism, etc. - typically isn’t an issue.

But a couple can't communicate if one of them chooses not to take part.

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ryn2
Just now, Telecaster68 said:

But not from an equal place. The asexual could choose to work on the relationship, or walk away, or stick with the stalemate. The sexual can't. They can only walk away or stick with the stalemate.

Not true.  The asexual can volunteer to work on the relationship, stick with the stalemate, or walk away.  The sexual can insist upon working on the relationship, stick with the stalemate, or walk away.

 

Neither partner gets guaranteed results from working on the relationship, or is guaranteed the  other partner will willingly participate in genuinely trying to better things... even if both can develop the skills to do so.

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ryn2
3 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

But a couple can't communicate if one of them chooses not to take part.

Right, which is why I said problems like the one you’re raising aren’t likely to arise in relationships where there is good communication to start with.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, anamikanon said:

What is this "all" business?

You seem to be saying no asexuals are making a deliberate decision not to communicate. Therefore they must be doing so because of  mental problems, by your reasoning.

 

Otherwise, clearly, some are making a deliberate, conscious decision to do something that will almost certainly destroy their relationship, and I'm confused why you're both so keen to argue this isn't the case.

 

4 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

it would make me wonder about how "flexible" you can get about commitments when they are a hindrance to your wishes and what vulnerability you will throw back in my face if I dare have a problem with it.

All commitments are contingent, surely? If one party doesn't deliver on their commitment in a substantial way, then the other party will naturally review their commitment, and take precautionary defensive measures in case attempts to resolve the situation don't work out.

 

Marriage contains a commitment, for example, not to assault the spouse. It also contains a commitment to work as team. If one spouse breaks the no-hitting commitment, the other reacts by not co-operating, most people wouldn't assume the second spouse couldn't be relied on to co-operate on a work project.

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anamikanon
8 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

In clinical terms, it is called sociopathy (this does not mean the same thing in psychology as it does in Hollywood films and fiction books).

Because this can be a trigger word, want to clarify that sociopathy is basically characterized by a lack of empathy for others and a narcissistic approach to finding solutions. It often can mean fake emotional responses or being unmoved by the plight of another and so on.

 

This is not an accusation or insult, but a description. If it helps, my ace and I have often had discussions on whether I am a sociopath - do I actually have a very high EQ or has my high IQ simply allowed me to "game" emotional engagement successfully? The discussion was inconclusive, though leaning toward not, because if you have a high EQ and IQ AND are often dealing with a lot of emotion, things tend to blur, where you have emotional responses on "autopilot" without actually feeling what you "should" be feeling in the moment, but you also have an alertness to seeing when being more engaged is necessary and can switch immediately. I can be brutally rational and am almost impossible to provoke into saying something I'll regret. Things like that. Can be high ability to process emotion and discard what isn't about me (provocation) or a high functioning sociopath. And so on.

 

In the sense that the comment was genuinely in terms of adding to the conversation and not a personal judgment.

 

Thought it important to say explicitly.

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ryn2
4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Otherwise, clearly, some are making a deliberate, conscious decision to do something that will almost certainly destroy their relationship,

We don’t really know this without hearing from them, but let’s assume it’s true.

 

It’s stubborn, perhaps misguided, unfortunate, etc., and  it could be justifiably seen as inexcusable and/or worth breaking up over.

 

It’s not deceitful.

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Telecaster68
Just now, ryn2 said:

We don’t really know this without hearing from them, but let’s assume it’s true.

 

It’s stubborn, perhaps misguided, unfortunate, etc., and  it could be justifiably seen as inexcusable and/or worth breaking up over.

 

It’s not deceitful.

Does something being deceitful instantly make it worse than something that's not?

 

Is domestic violence therefore not as bad as secretly spending your partner's money?

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anamikanon
6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

You seem to be saying no asexuals are making a deliberate decision not to communicate. Therefore they must be doing so because of  mental problems, by your reasoning.

I am not even pretending this is about lack of communication by aces overall. You are drawing heavily from your experiences, so I am addressing that. For example, you haven't considered the fifty other kinds of responses by aces at all. Example, those who try, those who compromise, those who happily support their partner in seeking sex where it pleases them, those who do engage and so on. The kind of ace you are extensively considering is not even found on this forum. So no, I'm not at all addressing any "all" here, but more addressing the ace stereotype you often bring up and are bringing up here - modeled on your wife.

 

6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Otherwise, clearly, some are making a deliberate, conscious decision to do something that will almost certainly destroy their relationship, and I'm confused why you're both so keen to argue this isn't the case.

Speaking for myself, because I haven't observed anyone doing that, so I don't see it as a fruitful line of discussion. Also, because I am of the firm belief that if anyone believes their partner to be malintended and deliberately ignoring their pain, they should get out of the relationship and no further discussion is needed.

 

6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

All commitments are contingent, surely? If one party doesn't deliver on their commitment in a substantial way, then the other party will naturally review their commitment, and take precautionary defensive measures in case attempts to resolve the situation don't work out.

General process in any honest deal is to discuss any changes. Or at the very least inform. The other party doesn't have to like it, but the option to revise the deal or break it must be offered. There is no such thing as an honest deal with one party not keeping up their end.

 

What you are describing as "precautionary defensive measures" when applied to such a situation would basically amount to getting another partner lined up before dumping this one. You wouldn't see it as honest if it was done to you, right? Ditto when you do it.

 

6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Marriage contains a commitment, for example, not to assault the spouse. It also contains a commitment to work as team. If one spouse breaks the no-hitting commitment, the other reacts by not co-operating, most people wouldn't assume the second spouse couldn't be relied on to co-operate on a work project.

So you break the deal. Or insist on compliance. A deliberate deception as a response to inadequacy is neither ethical nor proportionate.

 

This is like saying you buy fifty items from a certain supplier. They are not up to your expected standard from the deal. So you do business with them for another 20 years, but pay in fake currency. Guess who gets arrested if this goes to court?

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ryn2
17 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Does something being deceitful instantly make it worse than something that's not?

 

Is domestic violence therefore not as bad as secretly spending your partner's money?

Deceit adds another layer of problems to otherwise comparable things because it destroys trust.

 

Spending your partner’s money behind their back is more problematic than is spending it with their knowledge, even if the financial impact is the same.

 

It’s pretty hard to engage in stealth domestic violence (maybe beating the kids and lying to the partner about it??) so I’m not sure there’s a parallel there.

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