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Question for Sexual in a relationship with an Ace

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anamikanon

@Telecaster68 do you also know that there is also a strong corelation between sexual satisfaction in a marriage and cheating (it is covered in one of the links earlier, but here's a link again: https://news.fsu.edu/news/education-society/2018/02/12/lead-us-not-temptation-predictors-infidelity-divorce-highlighted-new-fsu-research/

 

Quote

Researchers found younger people and those less satisfied with their relationships were more likely to be unfaithful.

Surprisingly, people satisfied with sex in their relationship were more likely to engage in infidelity, perhaps suggesting they felt more positive about sex in general and would seek it out regardless of how they felt about their main relationship.

 

As in while lack of satisfaction in a relationship along with age (younger) was a factor, sexually satisfied people were more likely to be cheating? What do you make of that?

 

I just bring it up, because a lot of your energy about this subject also appears to come from a space of deprivation of sex and you wanted research references when I said that this is not an important factor. The part about sexual satisfaction in the research also echoes real life observations I've mentioned before when you described "refusing to address one partner's misery" as a justification/factor for cheating.

 

Edit: The initial part of the article also provides an objective measurement for what I described as boundaries being a strong factor and marriage not automatically making someone immune. The response to an attractive person - engagement/disengagement is a strong predictor of infidelity.

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ryn2
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

They concede it’s not the only factor, and age, education, and income are statistically more strongly related to whether people have cheated; but it’s certainly showing a strong correlation.

This is consistent with what I recall, which isn’t surprising given the dates on the studies, and with what I said.  It’s a statistically significant factor, but neither the majority factor nor the largest single factor.

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anamikanon

For that matter, every sexual here is almost certain to be frustrated sexually. How many instances of cheating have we heard of? We are all anonymous. No reason to not discuss this one thing when we are discussing far more miserable things routinely. Poly is discussed, temptation to cheat has been discussed. I can't, offhand recall anyone going "I cheated" or "Ok, I'm done with being frustrated, I'm going to cheat" etc?

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anamikanon

Personally, I don't count contentment/discontentment in a relationship as an objective factor unless there is some documented or mutually acknowledged dissatisfaction/disengagement known before the cheating - as in it is recognized to be outside the boundaries of what is acceptable (to the individuals in question) in a normal cohabitation. Human nature being what it is, no relationship is fully satisfying, and it is very easy to apply hindsight and compare the old against the shiny new and blame the old for own choices. So self-reporting in addition to hindsight is very likely to place the blame away from self or at the very least provide some situational "necessity" compelling choices one is ashamed of. The alternative is to admit that they made the choices and were knowingly cruel to their spouses of their own volition.

 

It isn't all that different from an alcoholic blaming their spouse for their drinking or a domestic abuser saying she asked for the beating, etc.

 

Combined with the prevalence of an active sexual relationship during cheating (sex is often among the first casualties of marital discord), I am skeptical about how much importance to place on this, particularly as a predictor or cause, given that almost all relationships will have some or the other degree of conflict/dissatisfaction.

 

But my standards to accept data as reliable need not apply to all, I admit.

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ryn2
14 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

I can't, offhand recall anyone going "I cheated" or "Ok, I'm done with being frustrated, I'm going to cheat" etc?

Just iron hamster.  :)

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Telecaster68
25 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

@Telecaster68 do you also know that there is also a strong corelation between sexual satisfaction in a marriage and cheating (it is covered in one of the links earlier, but here's a link again: https://news.fsu.edu/news/education-society/2018/02/12/lead-us-not-temptation-predictors-infidelity-divorce-highlighted-new-fsu-research/

 

 

As in while lack of satisfaction in a relationship along with age (younger) was a factor, sexually satisfied people were more likely to be cheating? What do you make of that?

 

I just bring it up, because a lot of your energy about this subject also appears to come from a space of deprivation of sex and you wanted research references when I said that this is not an important factor. The part about sexual satisfaction in the research also echoes real life observations I've mentioned before when you described "refusing to address one partner's misery" as a justification/factor for cheating.

 

Edit: The initial part of the article also provides an objective measurement for what I described as boundaries being a strong factor and marriage not automatically making someone immune. The response to an attractive person - engagement/disengagement is a strong predictor of infidelity.

This could easily degrade into 'my quote beats your quote', but to summarise that study (feel free to debate my summary): some university researchers tracked 233 young couples over (up to) the first 3.5 years of their marriage. They showed them pictures of attractive people, and correlated how quickly they looked away with how many of them admitted to cheating, over that time They don't say anything about causality.

 

The difference between people unhappy in the wider relationship, and unhappy with just sex is interesting. Actually, my main beef has always been not just the lack of sex, but the lack of engagement with the issue, and infidelity being more of a factor when the wider relationship is unsatisfactory speaks exactly to that. I don't think sexual dissatisfaction can be disentangled from the rest of a relationship; it's unlikely that wider relationship issues would leave sex untouched, but pretty likely that if the relationship as a whole was good, sex would be good too. As we know, sexual dissatisfaction affects the rest of the relationship too.

 

I didn't say 'refusing to address one partner's misery' justified cheating, I said it removed any moral high ground from the partner who didn't cheat.

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Telecaster68
16 hours ago, anamikanon said:
16 hours ago, CBC said:

Cheating is something that happens in relationships that are otherwise already troubled. Or "poisoned", if you will.

This is actually not true. It is a monogamous myth.

This is your claim that I'm disputing. Cheating clearly does happen in relationships that are otherwise troubled - I've cited a bunch of studies showing a strong correlation, and you've conceded this is the case.

 

It is true. It is not a monogamous myth. 

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anamikanon
10 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

This is your claim that I'm disputing. Cheating clearly does happen in relationships that are otherwise troubled - I've cited a bunch of studies showing a strong correlation, and you've conceded this is the case.

 

It is true. It is not a monogamous myth. 

This is getting exhausting and counterproductive. I have said what I had to say and there is no point repeating it if it is not convincing. I disagree with problems as a cause of infidelity, because it contradicts behavioral observations in my view.

 

  1. Every relationship has areas of discontentment and without some specific standard or degree to distinguish the discontentment associated with infidelity, there is nothing to identify discontentment that causes infidelity from what is prevalent in all relationships to some or the other extent.
  2. Unless discontentment is specified, saying discontentment is a cause of infidelity is as good as saying being in a relationship is a strong predictor of infidelity.

 

We can agree to disagree here.

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Telecaster68
37 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

For that matter, every sexual here is almost certain to be frustrated sexually. How many instances of cheating have we heard of? We are all anonymous. No reason to not discuss this one thing when we are discussing far more miserable things routinely. Poly is discussed, temptation to cheat has been discussed. I can't, offhand recall anyone going "I cheated" or "Ok, I'm done with being frustrated, I'm going to cheat" etc?

Actually it does get mentioned in passing, either by sexuals saying they regretted it, or asexuals upset that their partner cheated. 

 

There's still a moral element to cheating in the AVEN community though. Hardly ever for religiously-inspired moral reasons, but to do with deceiving people, being true to oneself, etc. - the kind of authenticity questions that AVEN loves to debate. And it's a community like any other, we all have a certain persona we bring to discussions, and a social network, and almost all humans care to some extent what other people think of them. Fessing up to infidelity would damage a poster's position in the community.

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Telecaster68
1 minute ago, anamikanon said:

We can agree to disagree here.

Particularly as I can't make head or tail of that paragraph.

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anamikanon
4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Particularly as I can't make head or tail of that paragraph.

Edited it to make it simpler.

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ryn2

I’m the aceish one and I admitted to cheating in an earlier post in this thread.  The events I’m talking about did not take place in my current relationship and are largely things my current partner knows about.

 

Maybe I’m ace because I’m morally bereft. ;)

 

Why are people who haven’t cheated so concerned with who has the moral high ground in relationships where someone has?

 

I’m not even sure where moral high ground came into it.  Things which interfere with the establishment and continuation of trust damage relationships.  Cheating is one of those things, which makes it a poor choice for people who want to continue and better their current relationships.  That’s not a moral or ethical issue, just a practical one.

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Telecaster68
3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Why are people who haven’t cheated so concerned with who has the moral high ground in relationships where someone has?

 

I brought it up because cheating is always considered pretty much the ultimate relationship-destroyer, and the non-cheater gets unquestioning sympathy, generally. I was questioning the justification for that sympathy.

 

12 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Things which interfere with the establishment and continuation of trust damage relationships.

And dismissing a partner's needs is another. But the conventional attitude is that cheating wipes the slate clean for the cheated-on partner because .... well... not sure why. They become beyond criticism.

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uhtred
10 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I’m the aceish one and I admitted to cheating in an earlier post in this thread.  The events I’m talking about did not take place in my current relationship and are largely things my current partner knows about.

 

Maybe I’m ace because I’m morally bereft. ;)

 

Why are people who haven’t cheated so concerned with who has the moral high ground in relationships where someone has?

 

I’m not even sure where moral high ground came into it.  Things which interfere with the establishment and continuation of trust damage relationships.  Cheating is one of those things, which makes it a poor choice for people who want to continue and better their current relationships.  That’s not a moral or ethical issue, just a practical one.

It varies.  To some people cheating is a deeply horrible thing.  To others its not important at all.    I don't consider cheating a big deal, and have no moral objections to someone finding sex elsewhere if their spouse is constantly turning them down, BUT I am also aware that it IS a huge deal for some people. 

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ryn2
28 minutes ago, uhtred said:

BUT I am also aware that it IS a huge deal for some people.

Same.  My comment was aimed at why people in the thread who stated they hadn’t cheated to begin were arguing so heatedly in favor of the partner who turned them down losing any moral high ground.

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Telecaster68

They were pissed off at being repeatedly misrepresented. 

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ryn2
12 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

They were pissed off at being repeatedly misrepresented. 

Which is fine... was just explaining to uhtred, who missed the live production, that I hadn’t meant that I wondered why people outside the convo who hadn’t cheated might have strong opinions on the topic anyway.

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Serran

The reason cheating gets the cheated on partner sympathy is because if you arent happy you can leave. If you go behind your partners back you:

1) lie

2) break all trust

3) puts your partner in to a questionable consent area - if they have sex with you and arent aware then you put them at risk for diseases without their knowledge and risk making them feel like you lied to keep sex going... and it feels very, very gross to know your consent to sex was not exactly informed. To know you let them touch you after can feel like you need to shower for a month straight to wash away how dirty that feels. 

 

And granted 1 and 2 happen in many cases. But, 3 is something that will cause a visceral reaction in people. And a lot of cheaters are still sleeping with their partner too, even if not the way they want to be. 

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uhtred
5 hours ago, Serran said:

The reason cheating gets the cheated on partner sympathy is because if you arent happy you can leave. If you go behind your partners back you:

1) lie

2) break all trust

3) puts your partner in to a questionable consent area - if they have sex with you and arent aware then you put them at risk for diseases without their knowledge and risk making them feel like you lied to keep sex going... and it feels very, very gross to know your consent to sex was not exactly informed. To know you let them touch you after can feel like you need to shower for a month straight to wash away how dirty that feels. 

 

And granted 1 and 2 happen in many cases. But, 3 is something that will cause a visceral reaction in people. And a lot of cheaters are still sleeping with their partner too, even if not the way they want to be. 

Sometimes its not so simple. Some people are in wonderful relationships - except for sex.  There is something about spending your entire life involuntarily near-sexless, that can make you feel like you "deserve" the experience of being desired, of passion, of physical love.  You may want that, but not want to end your primary relationship. 

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ryn2

The problem is, pervasive undermining of trust does end it in a way... even if you don’t actually break up.

 

It’s better to at least come to a “do whatever, just don’t tell me” arrangement.

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Serran
6 hours ago, uhtred said:

Sometimes its not so simple. Some people are in wonderful relationships - except for sex.  There is something about spending your entire life involuntarily near-sexless, that can make you feel like you "deserve" the experience of being desired, of passion, of physical love.  You may want that, but not want to end your primary relationship. 

Wanting is fine. And having a need that cant be fulfilled is fine. And it sucks when the one thing is so important all the other good isnt enough to make up for it. But, that just means you have a huge deal breaker and it sucks but you arent compatible. Even though you almost are. 

 

 

But, cheating and doing those three things to your partner is not a loving wonderful relationship. Its a selfish act that if found out will utterly destroy the person you claim to love. And lots of people i know who were cheated on have to recover for years before they can have a healthy relationship again, because of the emotional trauma and inability to trust someone again.

 

And the consent issue is a huge one for me, because if you are going to have sex with someone who believes they are monogamous with you, they need to know. Often monogamous long term couples stop using condoms and stuff because they trust they arent sleeping around... that consent is based on monogamy and void if that agreement is broken.

 

Yes breaking up with someone you love is awful and painful. Yes one deal breaker like no kids, no sex, no kink or whatever else ruins an otherwise perfect relationship is painful to admit. Yes you may think well ill just have my cake and eat it too. But, expect people to not appreciate that line of thinking. Because you choose to become a liar and take informed sexual consent away from your partner. And people arent going to like that. So they will sympathize with the person who was cheated on. Not the cheater. Even though if you said you were miserable and didnt cheat, you might have all the sympathy. 

 

The only way I think its ok is to say "I need sex, so I am getting it elsewhere. I wish you were OK with it, but that is what I need".. cause then they know and can decide to live with it or not. Im fine with the need, im just not fine with the purposefully inflicting that much pain (the lies are the worst part) and knowingly messing with consent. 

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scaredhubby

Sexual here. I need sex to feel intimacy with my wife. That being said, if her vagina was closed shut, I would have still loved her. But since she came out, it feels like she closed it shut, bought a vibrator and said piss off. Hard to feel intimacy after that.

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Sally
On 8/17/2018 at 5:08 AM, Telecaster68 said:

I brought it up because cheating is always considered pretty much the ultimate relationship-destroyer, and the non-cheater gets unquestioning sympathy, generally. I was questioning the justification for that sympathy.

 

And dismissing a partner's needs is another. But the conventional attitude is that cheating wipes the slate clean for the cheated-on partner because .... well... not sure why. They become beyond criticism.

Both of those assumptions are simply yours, though. 

 

Cheating is  considered a relationship destroyer because it involves the destruction of trust.  However, the non-cheater certainly does not get unquestioning sympathy, even generally.  In fact (and again generally), the cheater often receives sympathy because it's assumed that the non-cheater -- by either omission or commission -- is responsible through their behavior for the cheating.  "He wouldn't have cheated if she'd  been a better wife."  In other words, as you say, "dismissing a partner's needs" denotes responsibility for what the partner does.  That dismissal could take the form of refusing to discuss the issue (even though there would be no  point  in discussing it [further] because it's not going to change the sexual/asexual situation, or  refusing to accommodate the sexual by having at least occasional sex.  

 

 

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MrDane

Openness and honesty is of course the best ground to build your relationship on. I still advocate the rigth to seek partnered sex in a combination where both partners enjoy it. Should the ace choose to say “no way, never!” Then that statement does not necessary mean that the non-ace will either rape, cheat or go celibate. Agreed upon poly or open relationship is one. To state openly, that you go out to get sex, without the ace’s approval is another. The breaking/distrust/destruction of the relationship/family is not neccesary on the shoulders of the sexual. What is the story to tell the children?

”Your father is leaving the family, because he, the cheating bastard, fucked some pretty girl”

or

”I have chosen to stop our family structure, because I do not desire your father. Never have and never will, but he is a nice guy and I love him. I just cant stand that he goes to see someone who wants him in ways I dont. Not anymore”

or 

“Yes, daddy does go to fuck every wednesday, after work. He likes it and it keeps him happy. I would rather, that he didnt, but as I have nothing to offer him, it is his understandable rigth. We work our way around it and stay together forever”

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ryn2

One of the other posters just tells the kids it’s [hobby] night, which isn’t even a lie because they do the hobby before they have sex.

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Sally

Chlldren don't need and are probably not interested in having stories given to them.  They simply can be told that one parent has something to do on certain nights away from home.  

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Groodle

My advice is to have a conversation and clearly decide your sexual boundaries together. Then intimacy lies within those set boundaries - whether it be cuddling, holding hands, kissing, etc. - stick only to the acts you’ve agreed on, and if you’re ever unsure just ask “is this ok?”

If they say no then stop right away.

 

Sometimes you will kiss them on the neck or do something intimate, and they may seem uninterested or disengaged - That’s ok, remember that they still love you and it’s ok for you to check too if they’re enjoying this or if they want you to stop. Sometimes there may be an occasion where you see them become turned on, and in seeing the person you love come alive like that you can feel turned on too, and you may want to go further than your set limit in that moment. Just ask them. “Do you want to try something new tonight? What do you think about [x]?” - and be really clear with your intentions, and if they say no in that moment then you have to back off, and that’s just how it is. It doesn’t matter how much you’d like to go further in that moment - no means no. Be patient, accept, and love. You can always masturbate later if you feel really frustrated or unfulfilled sexually. I don’t mean that to sound dismissive either - masturbating really helps. 

It’s so important that your partner can trust you and doesnt feel pressured or judged for asserting their limits. They need to know that they can say no and you’ll respect it. 

 

The conversation about setting limits can be redone as many times as you both like, as your relationship progresses it may also change your limits, or they may stay the same as time passes. It’s important to keep up to date on what you both want intimately, so that things are clear and you don’t feel frustrated and they don’t feel pressured by mixed expectations.

 

If you feel unhappy with their set limit, and they’ve told you this is as far as they’ll go, ask yourself if you can live with that. If you can’t, then it’s important to consider whether this is the right person for you. Because this is their sexual orientation, not their choice. It’s not the same as an allosexual who “isn’t ready yet” or “needs time before they eventually come around” - if this is as far as an asexual says they’ll go, that’s it. They’re not going to change their mind later, because it’s not a decision, it’s a fact. It’s their natural limit and part of who they are. And it’s important to know that’s perfectly ok. They are perfect the way they are, and if things don’t work out because of sexual incompatibility, that’s ok too. It’s just a natural part of dating anybody, of any sexuality - see if things work between two people, and if not, you keep dating till you find your match, and so do they.

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Neshama
On 8/8/2018 at 6:33 PM, Bezoyo said:

Hey, i'm kind of back. Kinda.

So, as i was busy, i continued to have all my thoughts on everything, as always.

I realized a hypothesis, that i'd like other sexuals to discuss with me.

It look to me there is 2 kind of sexuals.

- Those who need sex to feel intimacy.

- Those who don't need sex to feel intimacy.

 

I read quite a few people here in the first category, though some go trough with the "power of love", sadly not without paying a price.

I would like to know more, to understand, how you can cope(not sure it's the right word) with it.

 

The second category seem scarcer, or maybe it's just a impression. And i would like to know more how you find intimacy with your SO(Significant Other).

For me, emotional, romantic intimacy leads to wanting sex to deepen said intimacy. More like a self-sustaining cycle. Platonic/Aesthetic attraction (they can trade places sometimes) -> Sensual attraction -> Emotional attraction -> Romantic attraction -> Sexual attraction. Of course, this could be different for others.

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