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Question for Sexual in a relationship with an Ace


Bezoyo

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I’m not going to try to dig up research from 10-15 years ago so if someone is more motivated... go for it.

 

Cheating as a broad category doesn’t say much about the health of the relationship.

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1 minute ago, ryn2 said:

Sorry, that was for tele.  Ficto snuck into the middle.

I'd be interested to know your take on what I said in my comment, we seem to have rather different opinions on this matter :P

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1 hour ago, FictoVore. said:

I'd be interested to know your take on what I said in my comment, we seem to have rather different opinions on this matter :P

I last did any research on the topic 10-15 years ago, so I’m not current, but my research at the time and ultimate personal opinion is that many ostensibly monogamous people give that excuse (“it’s something my spouse couldn’t give me”) to avoid facing the actual truth (which varies).  It’s the pass we’ve always given adulterous behavior and it’s an easy way to pass blame/say “I just couldn’t help myself.”  Nobody wants to say “eh, my spouse is fine but I just felt like it” or “whoops, I lied and said I’m monogamous and/or monoamorous when I’m really not.”

 

But, again, not super-current on the topic beyond anecdotal evidence these days.  The prevailing school of thought may have moved on without me.

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I’m not moralizing.  I’ve been all three points on the triangle.  At the time I did the research it was to prove to someone (in whose relationship I was in no way involved) that her “blame the other woman” perspective was not correct... so I wasn’t investigating from an ace-ish place.  If you have the time and curiosity to look into it now, from your own perspective, by all means do so.

 

I’ve said in past discussions that - in anything requiring action - the person taking the action is more at fault.  Could that person be in a relationship that explains his/her/their actions?  Absolutely, but there are ways out of the situation that don’t require dishonesty.  Is dishonesty justified in some situations?  That’s each individual’s decision.

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17 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

The vast majority of people don't go into a relationship anticipating they'll cheat, so something must've happened.

The vast majority don’t expect to divorce, either.  All those bad things are done by and happen to other people.  People are very good at that particular brand of optimism.

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4 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

And since only friend groups have been cited on both sides, we don't know either way. But I'd say that by definition, a relationship where one partner is willing to break an understanding of monogamy isn't a healthy relationship.

I actually cited an entire book as well, which I don't have on hand right now. 

 

Edit: And a book on infidelity sees friendships sliding into cheating (as opposed to any discontentment being the trigger) often enough for the NAME of the book to be "Not 'Just friends'".

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Also, Google is thy friend. I just found these without hunting too hard. The corelations are for a lot of data points. Most of them irrelevant to satisfaction in marital relationships. Though lack of satisfaction is one too among the newer married people. Other strong corelations include a previous history of cheating (particularly for men), being the breadwinner, age, etc

 

https://medicalxpress.com/news/2018-02-predictors-infidelity-divorce-highlighted.html

https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-cheats-more-the-demographics-of-cheating-in-america

 

This one mentions marital distress as a factor (since you hadn't bothered to provide the research either ;) )

 

http://whatsdoneinthedark.org/infidelity-prevalence-trends-and-prevention-a-research-review/

 

Also, the data in the book is better. I'll share it when I find a copy. The reason for that is that while self reporting for surveys can "rationalize" own behavior by blaming problems in the relationships to spare their own conscience (not my fault s/he made me do it), what comes up in actual case studies often presents a picture of opportunity over discontent - in the sense of the discontentment usually being more along the lines of normal marital friction and no major hindrance to the existing relationship till the new person is found. Including an active sexual relationship. In the sense that after a new attractive partner is found, the existing one appears drab - this is a common psychological phenomenon in all relationships - the new dazzles. Poly people actively warn against impulsive desicions during "NRE" - new relationship energy. Someone you can meet to have hot sex regularly with and no tangles of baggage will seem more "satisfying" than someone you are say.... sharing the child rearing of twins. This is not the same as dissatisfaction being the cause.

 

I'm also planning to get some data from lawyers in terms of who initiates divorce when cheating is a factor. Logically, a discontented spouse is more likely to find an out, right? I don't know any cheaters who initiated divorce.

 

And regardless of whether the couple stays together or not, the marital "discontentment" when the cheating is found is way worse than anything that existed in the relationship before. Which was my original point.

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5 hours ago, FictoVore. said:

It's not a monogamous relationship if wifey is eating cock at her local gym then going home and kissing her hubby with tangy-flavoured lips lol. It's only monogamous if you're not fucking anyone else.

 

There is a scientific term for this: Not being able to keep it in your pants. These are the people who bring STDs home to the trusting spouse. You can be close to someone and be their friend without having to get your genitals out of your jeans.

 

In other words, some people are pigs who (instead of being honest with their partner by admitting they're not comfortable with monogamy) get their kicks off with other people's naked bodies. Sure it's fun and feels good, but part of being in a healthy monogamous relationship is NOT giving into those baser instincts. If you (general 'you' here) know it would hurt your partner enough that they may break up with you over it (ergo the secrecy) then it's clearly not something you should be doing no matter how good it makes your genitals feel. And if you're driven to do something that may potentially hurt your partner that much (not to mention may give them diseases), purely for your own selfish pleasure, then yes there are underlying issues even if the cheater themselves doesn't recognise those issues. You don't do something you KNOW will break your partner's heart and potentially damage their health unless there's something not quite right happening on some level. There are of course many instances of cheating where the relationship is deeply troubled already and I'm not so harsh about those circumstances. It's just when someone goes and fucks around with a perfectly happy relationship (as those are the ones you're referring to apparently) that I take serious issue. 

 

On a more serious note: Having personally had sex with many, many married men I can say the vast majority of them are seeking something their wife can't give them. Whether that's an emotional need, a need for comfort, a specific sexual act, or a mixture of all three, many cheaters do so because they need something specific, the absence of which is causing them disquiet or unhappiness at home on some level. They may be very happy with the rest of their relationship, but they need this one thing enough that they're willing to risk the pain it may cause their partner to seek it out with someone else. If you're in enough pain on some level that you can risk creating pain in the person you love, then something is most definitely amiss in the relationship. That's regardless of whether or not the cheater is able to admit or even recognise that those issues exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am no fan of cheating, but I thought the request was for scientific research 😛

 

I find your overall statistical perspective on this interesting in the sense of seeking professional services is a deliberate act (I assume you are referring to those days) and unlikely for someone to "slide" into. Such a subset of people being seeking or planning on infidelity due to specific reasons is not surprising. 

 

For that matter, there is a significant number of people, more often men, who tend to simply be lecherous and are making passes at people when opportunity presents. This is different in the sense that they aren't doing it out of discontent or seeking specific experiences or even "sliding" into it - they are simply doing it because they can and don't beleive they owe anyone fidelity regardless of their married status.

 

Regardless, I don't think it is a bright idea - as stated in the comment that kicked off this discussion. In my view, even if someone is seeking specific sexual experiences outside marriage, the ethical way (and one less likely to torpedo the rest of the relationship down the road) to do it is to discuss and do it with consent.

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7 hours ago, anamikanon said:

Also, the data in the book is better. I'll share it when I find a copy.

When I googled the book last night all 324 pp. of it are online in .pdf format.

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1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm not saying opportunity has no effect. I'm saying relationship dissatisfaction is a huge factor.

ok.

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6 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

When I googled the book last night all 324 pp. of it are online in .pdf format.

That's good to know. Will check it out.

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@Telecaster68 do you also know that there is also a strong corelation between sexual satisfaction in a marriage and cheating (it is covered in one of the links earlier, but here's a link again: https://news.fsu.edu/news/education-society/2018/02/12/lead-us-not-temptation-predictors-infidelity-divorce-highlighted-new-fsu-research/

 

Quote

Researchers found younger people and those less satisfied with their relationships were more likely to be unfaithful.

Surprisingly, people satisfied with sex in their relationship were more likely to engage in infidelity, perhaps suggesting they felt more positive about sex in general and would seek it out regardless of how they felt about their main relationship.

 

As in while lack of satisfaction in a relationship along with age (younger) was a factor, sexually satisfied people were more likely to be cheating? What do you make of that?

 

I just bring it up, because a lot of your energy about this subject also appears to come from a space of deprivation of sex and you wanted research references when I said that this is not an important factor. The part about sexual satisfaction in the research also echoes real life observations I've mentioned before when you described "refusing to address one partner's misery" as a justification/factor for cheating.

 

Edit: The initial part of the article also provides an objective measurement for what I described as boundaries being a strong factor and marriage not automatically making someone immune. The response to an attractive person - engagement/disengagement is a strong predictor of infidelity.

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1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

They concede it’s not the only factor, and age, education, and income are statistically more strongly related to whether people have cheated; but it’s certainly showing a strong correlation.

This is consistent with what I recall, which isn’t surprising given the dates on the studies, and with what I said.  It’s a statistically significant factor, but neither the majority factor nor the largest single factor.

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For that matter, every sexual here is almost certain to be frustrated sexually. How many instances of cheating have we heard of? We are all anonymous. No reason to not discuss this one thing when we are discussing far more miserable things routinely. Poly is discussed, temptation to cheat has been discussed. I can't, offhand recall anyone going "I cheated" or "Ok, I'm done with being frustrated, I'm going to cheat" etc?

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Personally, I don't count contentment/discontentment in a relationship as an objective factor unless there is some documented or mutually acknowledged dissatisfaction/disengagement known before the cheating - as in it is recognized to be outside the boundaries of what is acceptable (to the individuals in question) in a normal cohabitation. Human nature being what it is, no relationship is fully satisfying, and it is very easy to apply hindsight and compare the old against the shiny new and blame the old for own choices. So self-reporting in addition to hindsight is very likely to place the blame away from self or at the very least provide some situational "necessity" compelling choices one is ashamed of. The alternative is to admit that they made the choices and were knowingly cruel to their spouses of their own volition.

 

It isn't all that different from an alcoholic blaming their spouse for their drinking or a domestic abuser saying she asked for the beating, etc.

 

Combined with the prevalence of an active sexual relationship during cheating (sex is often among the first casualties of marital discord), I am skeptical about how much importance to place on this, particularly as a predictor or cause, given that almost all relationships will have some or the other degree of conflict/dissatisfaction.

 

But my standards to accept data as reliable need not apply to all, I admit.

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14 minutes ago, anamikanon said:

I can't, offhand recall anyone going "I cheated" or "Ok, I'm done with being frustrated, I'm going to cheat" etc?

Just iron hamster.  :)

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10 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

This is your claim that I'm disputing. Cheating clearly does happen in relationships that are otherwise troubled - I've cited a bunch of studies showing a strong correlation, and you've conceded this is the case.

 

It is true. It is not a monogamous myth. 

This is getting exhausting and counterproductive. I have said what I had to say and there is no point repeating it if it is not convincing. I disagree with problems as a cause of infidelity, because it contradicts behavioral observations in my view.

 

  1. Every relationship has areas of discontentment and without some specific standard or degree to distinguish the discontentment associated with infidelity, there is nothing to identify discontentment that causes infidelity from what is prevalent in all relationships to some or the other extent.
  2. Unless discontentment is specified, saying discontentment is a cause of infidelity is as good as saying being in a relationship is a strong predictor of infidelity.

 

We can agree to disagree here.

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4 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

Particularly as I can't make head or tail of that paragraph.

Edited it to make it simpler.

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I’m the aceish one and I admitted to cheating in an earlier post in this thread.  The events I’m talking about did not take place in my current relationship and are largely things my current partner knows about.

 

Maybe I’m ace because I’m morally bereft. ;)

 

Why are people who haven’t cheated so concerned with who has the moral high ground in relationships where someone has?

 

I’m not even sure where moral high ground came into it.  Things which interfere with the establishment and continuation of trust damage relationships.  Cheating is one of those things, which makes it a poor choice for people who want to continue and better their current relationships.  That’s not a moral or ethical issue, just a practical one.

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10 hours ago, ryn2 said:

I’m the aceish one and I admitted to cheating in an earlier post in this thread.  The events I’m talking about did not take place in my current relationship and are largely things my current partner knows about.

 

Maybe I’m ace because I’m morally bereft. ;)

 

Why are people who haven’t cheated so concerned with who has the moral high ground in relationships where someone has?

 

I’m not even sure where moral high ground came into it.  Things which interfere with the establishment and continuation of trust damage relationships.  Cheating is one of those things, which makes it a poor choice for people who want to continue and better their current relationships.  That’s not a moral or ethical issue, just a practical one.

It varies.  To some people cheating is a deeply horrible thing.  To others its not important at all.    I don't consider cheating a big deal, and have no moral objections to someone finding sex elsewhere if their spouse is constantly turning them down, BUT I am also aware that it IS a huge deal for some people. 

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28 minutes ago, uhtred said:

BUT I am also aware that it IS a huge deal for some people.

Same.  My comment was aimed at why people in the thread who stated they hadn’t cheated to begin were arguing so heatedly in favor of the partner who turned them down losing any moral high ground.

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12 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

They were pissed off at being repeatedly misrepresented. 

Which is fine... was just explaining to uhtred, who missed the live production, that I hadn’t meant that I wondered why people outside the convo who hadn’t cheated might have strong opinions on the topic anyway.

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The reason cheating gets the cheated on partner sympathy is because if you arent happy you can leave. If you go behind your partners back you:

1) lie

2) break all trust

3) puts your partner in to a questionable consent area - if they have sex with you and arent aware then you put them at risk for diseases without their knowledge and risk making them feel like you lied to keep sex going... and it feels very, very gross to know your consent to sex was not exactly informed. To know you let them touch you after can feel like you need to shower for a month straight to wash away how dirty that feels. 

 

And granted 1 and 2 happen in many cases. But, 3 is something that will cause a visceral reaction in people. And a lot of cheaters are still sleeping with their partner too, even if not the way they want to be. 

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5 hours ago, Serran said:

The reason cheating gets the cheated on partner sympathy is because if you arent happy you can leave. If you go behind your partners back you:

1) lie

2) break all trust

3) puts your partner in to a questionable consent area - if they have sex with you and arent aware then you put them at risk for diseases without their knowledge and risk making them feel like you lied to keep sex going... and it feels very, very gross to know your consent to sex was not exactly informed. To know you let them touch you after can feel like you need to shower for a month straight to wash away how dirty that feels. 

 

And granted 1 and 2 happen in many cases. But, 3 is something that will cause a visceral reaction in people. And a lot of cheaters are still sleeping with their partner too, even if not the way they want to be. 

Sometimes its not so simple. Some people are in wonderful relationships - except for sex.  There is something about spending your entire life involuntarily near-sexless, that can make you feel like you "deserve" the experience of being desired, of passion, of physical love.  You may want that, but not want to end your primary relationship. 

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The problem is, pervasive undermining of trust does end it in a way... even if you don’t actually break up.

 

It’s better to at least come to a “do whatever, just don’t tell me” arrangement.

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6 hours ago, uhtred said:

Sometimes its not so simple. Some people are in wonderful relationships - except for sex.  There is something about spending your entire life involuntarily near-sexless, that can make you feel like you "deserve" the experience of being desired, of passion, of physical love.  You may want that, but not want to end your primary relationship. 

Wanting is fine. And having a need that cant be fulfilled is fine. And it sucks when the one thing is so important all the other good isnt enough to make up for it. But, that just means you have a huge deal breaker and it sucks but you arent compatible. Even though you almost are. 

 

 

But, cheating and doing those three things to your partner is not a loving wonderful relationship. Its a selfish act that if found out will utterly destroy the person you claim to love. And lots of people i know who were cheated on have to recover for years before they can have a healthy relationship again, because of the emotional trauma and inability to trust someone again.

 

And the consent issue is a huge one for me, because if you are going to have sex with someone who believes they are monogamous with you, they need to know. Often monogamous long term couples stop using condoms and stuff because they trust they arent sleeping around... that consent is based on monogamy and void if that agreement is broken.

 

Yes breaking up with someone you love is awful and painful. Yes one deal breaker like no kids, no sex, no kink or whatever else ruins an otherwise perfect relationship is painful to admit. Yes you may think well ill just have my cake and eat it too. But, expect people to not appreciate that line of thinking. Because you choose to become a liar and take informed sexual consent away from your partner. And people arent going to like that. So they will sympathize with the person who was cheated on. Not the cheater. Even though if you said you were miserable and didnt cheat, you might have all the sympathy. 

 

The only way I think its ok is to say "I need sex, so I am getting it elsewhere. I wish you were OK with it, but that is what I need".. cause then they know and can decide to live with it or not. Im fine with the need, im just not fine with the purposefully inflicting that much pain (the lies are the worst part) and knowingly messing with consent. 

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  • 1 month later...

Sexual here. I need sex to feel intimacy with my wife. That being said, if her vagina was closed shut, I would have still loved her. But since she came out, it feels like she closed it shut, bought a vibrator and said piss off. Hard to feel intimacy after that.

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On 8/17/2018 at 5:08 AM, Telecaster68 said:

I brought it up because cheating is always considered pretty much the ultimate relationship-destroyer, and the non-cheater gets unquestioning sympathy, generally. I was questioning the justification for that sympathy.

 

And dismissing a partner's needs is another. But the conventional attitude is that cheating wipes the slate clean for the cheated-on partner because .... well... not sure why. They become beyond criticism.

Both of those assumptions are simply yours, though. 

 

Cheating is  considered a relationship destroyer because it involves the destruction of trust.  However, the non-cheater certainly does not get unquestioning sympathy, even generally.  In fact (and again generally), the cheater often receives sympathy because it's assumed that the non-cheater -- by either omission or commission -- is responsible through their behavior for the cheating.  "He wouldn't have cheated if she'd  been a better wife."  In other words, as you say, "dismissing a partner's needs" denotes responsibility for what the partner does.  That dismissal could take the form of refusing to discuss the issue (even though there would be no  point  in discussing it [further] because it's not going to change the sexual/asexual situation, or  refusing to accommodate the sexual by having at least occasional sex.  

 

 

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Openness and honesty is of course the best ground to build your relationship on. I still advocate the rigth to seek partnered sex in a combination where both partners enjoy it. Should the ace choose to say “no way, never!” Then that statement does not necessary mean that the non-ace will either rape, cheat or go celibate. Agreed upon poly or open relationship is one. To state openly, that you go out to get sex, without the ace’s approval is another. The breaking/distrust/destruction of the relationship/family is not neccesary on the shoulders of the sexual. What is the story to tell the children?

”Your father is leaving the family, because he, the cheating bastard, fucked some pretty girl”

or

”I have chosen to stop our family structure, because I do not desire your father. Never have and never will, but he is a nice guy and I love him. I just cant stand that he goes to see someone who wants him in ways I dont. Not anymore”

or 

“Yes, daddy does go to fuck every wednesday, after work. He likes it and it keeps him happy. I would rather, that he didnt, but as I have nothing to offer him, it is his understandable rigth. We work our way around it and stay together forever”

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