Why is Autism a dirt word on this site? There is a strong link. Thoughts? Experiences?

[anisotrophic]

50 minutes ago, alibali said:

Biologically I apparently could "enjoy sex"....it just didn't feel that much like enjoyment or necessary etc...

Oops, I apologize, thank you for this. I really should stick to "want". My partner is the same way (no desire but physically it's pleasant enough), so we do have sex when I ask -- and I'm thankful for it!

[ryn2]

Agreed, I’m perfectly capable of enjoying sex and can 100% see (having been one) how someone could be asexual and yet not know it for years or decades.  That’s especially true if they don’t discuss feelings about sex with their same-sex friends.

[anisotrophic]

I want to add, I can't know, but the sorts of things @IronHamster writes don't make me think his partner is ace. It actually makes me wonder if she's suffered an abusive relationship.

 

That is, at least, how this stuff is coming off to me (and why I might be unsympathetic). My two cents.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Agreed, I’m perfectly capable of enjoying sex and can 100% see (having been one) how someone could be asexual and yet not know it for years or decades.  That’s especially true if they don’t discuss feelings about sex with their same-sex friends.

I'm in a different boat in that I'm physically unable to enjoy any form of stimulation of my genitals by another person, which is why I ended up identifying as asexual. Now I know I'm not ace, but I'll still never be able to enjoy any form of genital stimulation, and the lack of enjoyment is WHY it took me so long to figure out I was actually sexual (though I forced sexuality for years initially, assuming no women actually enjoyed it! That was before I discovered asexuality)

.. It's kind of ironic that others are in the opposite boat, in that because they could experience the sensations as pleasurable sometimes, that's WHY it took them so long to work out they were ace.. and for me the lack of pleasure is what caused me to take so long to work out I was not ace. Random 1am musing, sorry, off to sleep now 😛

[ryn2]

Just now, anisotropic said:

I want to add, I can't know, but the sorts of things @IronHamster writes don't make me think his partner is ace. It actually makes me wonder if she's suffered an abusive relationship.

 

That is, at least, how this stuff is coming off to me (and why I might be unsympathetic). My two cents.

Yeah, it’s hard to know (even for myself, lol!) whether someone is ace or has other things going on.  My original point - and I’m guessing you agree - was that someone who belatedly discovers their sexuality (or who loses all interest in sex due to relationship issues/factors, for that matter) isn’t breaching some fine print clause in their marriage contract.  While it’s reasonable for either party to want out at that point, the local legal penalties still apply.

[IronHamster]

Sexuality is a spectrum.  I have a cousin that is 100% gay.  I know guys that claim they are straight that have done things with other guys.  To me, if a guy has played with another guy that is pretty gay to me.  

 

I need an emotional connection to feel sexual, but I am high performance with my partners.  Some people would call that attraction trait demisexual and consider that a form of asexuality.  In my case, I would disagree with that diagnosis.  

 

My wife enjoyed holding hands in public and would get flirty, but all that disappeared when we were alone.  In our quarter century struggle she only tolerated sexual contact.   There was no indication she ever wanted to have sex, other than to placate me.  The problem was not me.  For a guy with as little experience as I had, I have a partner that knows what she wants, and I am giving her experiences on par or better than any guy of any age she has ever been with.  

 

So, if that is not enough to qualify my soon to be ex as being somewhere in the asexual spectrum, I have no idea how else to classify her. 

[alibali]

I don't think anyone other than the person themselves can "classify" or rather identify as asexual. 

 

And if she is soon to be ex I can't think of a reason for you to need to "classify" her. There must have been something that kept you in the marriage too or you would have left it sooner. 

 

If you are seeking out reasons to justify your own reaction that is fair enough but some of your comments have been more about how you treated her because of your own needs and a continuing bitterness. Which is more about you than about trying to understand her as a person.

 

All just my opinion of course.

[ryn2]

26 minutes ago, alibali said:

And if she is soon to be ex I can't think of a reason for you to need to "classify" her.

To me it reads - perhaps unfairly - a bit like “if I could prove she was asexual and knew it when we married I could get out of paying spousal support”... but that is probably not true anyway as most laws around annulment are based on whether or not the couple (ever) engaged in sexual intercourse and not on whether or not both parties actually desired sex before, while, or after doing it... and it wouldn’t be a true breach of contract unless there was some unusual nuptial agreement around providing cheerful sex X often. 

 

You could easily be right that it’s more about self-justification though.

[alibali]

Perhaps all marriages should start with a questionnaire. How do you identify sexually? How frequently will you want sex in 2, 5, 10, 20, 30 years time? What's your sexual experience and pattern in previous partnerships? Have you ever been diagnosed with any kind of dysfunction?  How many romantic gestures do you like and how frequently?

 

On a side note do you have any annoying habits like not cleaning the toilet or picking your nose? Do you snore? Might that get worse in 20 years time?

[Telecaster68]

5 minutes ago, alibali said:

On a side note do you have any annoying habits like not cleaning the toilet or picking your nose? Do you snore? Might that get worse in 20 years time?

Hardly comparable.

[Sally]

7 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Agreed, I’m perfectly capable of enjoying sex and can 100% see (having been one) how someone could be asexual and yet not know it for years or decades.  That’s especially true if they don’t discuss feelings about sex with their same-sex friends.

And someone could be -- I was -- asexual all my life and not know it because there was no knowledge of  asexuality then, and I just thought I would eventually enjoy it if I just kept trying and learning how to do it well.   It really had nothing to do with enjoying/not enjoying.  That era and the era of AVEN, etc. were very different.  

[anisotrophic]

Chrissakes, my spouse is "pretty gay" according to @IronHamster's nuanced methodology for determining sexual orientation. Not "trying to figure what types of people he was attracted to", in an era where asexuality was unknown. It's not like he wasn't trying to understand himself.

[Guest]

Lots of people who arent gay end up experimenting with other genders to figure themselves out. Not everyone just knows their sexuality. 

[alibali]

1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

Hardly comparable.

Neither of my paragraphs was serious. 

[IronHamster]

41 minutes ago, Serran said:

Lots of people who arent gay end up experimenting with other genders to figure themselves out. Not everyone just knows their sexuality. 

Well, it is true that you don't know if you don't like something if you've never experienced it, and you have to suck two cocks to know you're not gay because the first dick might not have been a good one.  I will never know for sure.  

[IronHamster]

2 hours ago, ryn2 said:

To me it reads - perhaps unfairly - a bit like “if I could prove she was asexual and knew it when we married I could get out of paying spousal support”... but that is probably not true anyway as most laws around annulment are based on whether or not the couple (ever) engaged in sexual intercourse and not on whether or not both parties actually desired sex before, while, or after doing it... and it wouldn’t be a true breach of contract unless there was some unusual nuptial agreement around providing cheerful sex X often. 

 

You could easily be right that it’s more about self-justification though.

Sadly, the concept of fraud does not exist in American divorce courts , nor in politics.  

[IronHamster]

2 hours ago, alibali said:

I don't think anyone other than the person themselves can "classify" or rather identify as asexual. 

 

And if she is soon to be ex I can't think of a reason for you to need to "classify" her. There must have been something that kept you in the marriage too or you would have left it sooner. 

 

If you are seeking out reasons to justify your own reaction that is fair enough but some of your comments have been more about how you treated her because of your own needs and a continuing bitterness. Which is more about you than about trying to understand her as a person.

 

All just my opinion of course.

I think I treated her quite well.  I provided for her every need.  I was the one whose needs were not tended to.  She either liked to keep me in agony, or was indifferent to my agony.  Whichever is true, the result is the same, and the cause is not out of love but selfishness.  Forcing celibacy on a sexual is every bit as morally repugnant as forcing sex on an asexual.  

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, IronHamster said:

Well, it is true that you don't know if you don't like something if you've never experienced it, and you have to suck two cocks to know you're not gay because the first dick might not have been a good one.  I will never know for sure.  

If you experience strong platonic attraction to the same sex it can feel a lot similar to romantic. Some hetero people can find the same sex aesthetically appealing, even if not sexual. If in college where all your friends are testing things, or bi/pan, you might wonder. 

 

After people experiment a lot of them figure out it isnt their thing and they were confusing one feeling for another. Asexuals do it too - confusing like/love for sexual feelings. 

 

Most people I know have experimented with other genders. Few are gay / bi / pan. Most are just hetero that didnt know who they were til after teen / early 20 years cause a lot of people figure themselves out around then. Some are ace. Some are bi, some gay, some pan. Majority are just plain hetero though. 

[alibali]

35 minutes ago, IronHamster said:

I think I treated her quite well.  I provided for her every need.  I was the one whose needs were not tended to.  She either liked to keep me in agony, or was indifferent to my agony.  Whichever is true, the result is the same, and the cause is not out of love but selfishness.  Forcing celibacy on a sexual is every bit as morally repugnant as forcing sex on an asexual.  

We will have to agree to disagree on the last sentence.  One is a matter of choice for the sexual particularly as you stated you had affairs, while the other is a physically violent act. It sounds like you didn’t like her very much so you splitting up was probably for the best.

[Sally]

42 minutes ago, IronHamster said:

  Forcing celibacy on a sexual is every bit as morally repugnant as forcing sex on an asexual.  

Forcing sex on an asexual -- or anyone -- is rape.  Not having sex with a partner is not forcing them to be celibate.  You could have had sex outside the marriage or left the marriage (as you are apparently doing now).  That's a loathesome attempt at an analogy.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, IronHamster said:

Forcing celibacy on a sexual is every bit as morally repugnant as forcing sex on an asexual.  

So you could have gone out and had sex at any time with a willing partner or prostitute, or left the relationship (so weren't actually being forced into celibacy) and that's comparable to literal rape to you?

 

Nice to know you have a sound moral compass. Very reassuring.

[IronHamster]

5 minutes ago, FictoVore. said:

So you could have gone out and had sex at any time with a willing partner or prostitute, or left the relationship (so weren't actually being forced into celibacy) and that's comparable to literal rape to you?

 

Nice to know you have a sound moral compass. Very reassuring.

Rape has many connotations, and none of them are acceptable behavior.  Forced celibacy has many connotations, and none of them are acceptable.  

[IronHamster]

1 hour ago, Sally said:

Forcing sex on an asexual -- or anyone -- is rape.  Not having sex with a partner is not forcing them to be celibate.  You could have had sex outside the marriage or left the marriage (as you are apparently doing now).  That's a loathesome attempt at an analogy.  

Both are psychologically damaging.  I think we should be honest about that.  Both Male and female sexuals experience all sorts of repercussions from sexual denial, and, frankly, it is worse for women.  Societal bias that men are the sexual predators and women are the gate keepers leads women to believe it is their undesireability that is at fault.  

 

Both are abusive.  A partner that is demanding fidelity when they cannot provide for their partner's needs is just as evil as a partner that demands their partner have sex when they get nothing from it.  

 

I evolved on this.  My last year of marriage I put a lot of pressure on my wife, expecting I could find something she enjoyed.  I was wrong.  I was doing that out of ignorance, just as refusers may be denying their spouses without knowing what damage they are causing.  

[ryn2]

58 minutes ago, IronHamster said:

A partner that is demanding fidelity when they cannot provide for their partner's needs is just as evil as a partner that demands their partner have sex when they get nothing from it. 

Honestly, none of us will ever know to what degree this is or isn’t true - not even counting how it probably varies from person to person - as it’s impossible for anyone to truly experience both sides.

[IronHamster]

57 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Honestly, none of us will ever know to what degree this is or isn’t true - not even counting how it probably varies from person to person - as it’s impossible for anyone to truly experience both sides.

I have sympathy for both sides, as long as the people are honest.  There is nothing loving about lying to your partner, and there is nothing loving about pushing your partner to do things they don't want to do, whether that is having sexual intimacy or not having sexual intimacy.   

[anisotrophic]

Hah! I'm skeptical that someone who states, "[sex] three times a week ... was my bare minimum" experienced, uh, "celibacy".

[ryn2]

3 minutes ago, IronHamster said:

There is nothing loving about lying to your partner,

How do you know she was lying?

[IronHamster]

22 minutes ago, anisotropic said:

Hah! I'm skeptical that someone who states, "[sex] three times a week ... was my bare minimum" experienced, uh, "celibacy".

I typically blew a nut one to three times a day.  If I went over three, my nuts ached.  I was loyal in thought for 23 years, and loyal in deed for 24.  

[IronHamster]

23 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

How do you know she was lying?

I am more addressing some of the bad advise I have seen here.  

 

If I am on the sidewalk and a driver has a sudden stroke, and the car swerved and hits me, or if the driver is neglectfully texting and swerves and hits me, or if he does not like me and intentionally tries to hit me, the motive is not important to me.  My problem is that I have been injured, I want to live, and I want to heal.  

[anisotrophic]

I don't know why people are engaging this seriously 😂 it's like a parody, the evil sexual.