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Why is Autism a dirt word on this site? There is a strong link. Thoughts? Experiences?

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

References for these studies please? I'd like to read them.

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Telecaster68

I'm about to go out so I'll supply them later. I've posted them before (as have others) so you could probably find them with a bit of searching; alternatively search on Google Scholar. They're not hard to find. 

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ryn2
3 hours ago, Homer said:

That's where I struggle though. Why does one need to know about a "term" or the underlying concept? I'm fairly certain that you know whether you're interested in something or not. "I don't care about sex and it's not something I seek." is being perfectly honest without knowing any fancy words. What am I missing?

When you don’t even know about the concept and are not aro (so you do want to “do” relationships), a) you don’t even know you feel differently about sex than your peers do (especially before the internet when you couldn’t go read tons of non-fictional accounts from others your age) and b) you think sayings like “you just haven’t met the right person yet” and “maybe there’s something wrong with your hormones” are true.  You think something’s “broken” and you think you need to fix it.

 

It may have been a little different for older aro aces, as a lack of interest in romantic relationships in general may have kept them out of situations where sex was expected.

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anisotrophic

@Telecaster68 I'm not disputing the studies, but expressing reluctance with overemphasis on this.

 

Causation and correlation are uncomfortable partners. There can be a hidden explanatory factor influencing the correlated items, the direction of causalities is unclear, confounding factors can be present. One may find causality ("X accounts for N% of Y") where statistical significance is indisputable, but "significance" in terms of explanatory power (eg whether you call the size of N "significant") may be disputed.

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Telecaster68

I agree, which is why I've worded every post about this very carefully. 

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Serran
5 hours ago, Homer said:

That's where I struggle though. Why does one need to know about a "term" or the underlying concept? I'm fairly certain that you know whether you're interested in something or not. "I don't care about sex and it's not something I seek." is being perfectly honest without knowing any fancy words. What am I missing?

Its hard to know you arent into sex though, sometimes.

 

I was into relationships. Everything said sex comes with that naturally. So I just assumed I would be into sex too. Had it, felt "wow is that really it... thats what the fuss is over?". I was 15 at this point, so I went to older people for their experienced sage advice on why this was so bad. They said first time sucks, you have to find out how you like it and your partner has to then get to know you and then its good. So I kept going. Still was blah. So, then my advisors told me its fine, just the wrong lover. So on and on trying and being told how to like it. 

 

Three boyfriends and about 300 times later, I met an older guy at 19. I told him I had issues with maintaining interest in sex and after about 6 months I get so bored I tend to not be able to do it. He says its OK, your past lovers were all virgins, it will be different with someone experienced. So im like OK. I enjoyed kissing and cuddling and stuff and everyone said I had to like sex if I had the right sex.... 

 

Five years into that relationship I started googling how to fix a low libido and found AVEN. Some people arent into sex! First time I had ever heard that, despite 9 years of asking advice from all sorts of people (well my mom and grandmother said sex sucks and all women hate it and just suffer for men, but they had trauma pasts ...)

 

Then I went into wanting a non-sexual relationship. And when I got with someone from here, I wanted sexual activities. Just not sex itself. Confused again. 

 

So I apparently have very rare sexual attraction. And it extends to only a few things, still hate sex itself. 

 

But... yeah. When you are told not liking it isnt an option cause everyone does and you just havent found the right person or kink or whatever, its hard to go, without knowing its a thing for humans, "nope, i just dont want it and that wont work". Especially if you are a kid and asking experienced adults and they say they didnt like it at first either...

 

I had sex something like 1500 times before I admitted nothing is going to make me like it. 

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alibali
2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

A lot of peer reviewed robust studies do show a higher incidence of people on the spectrum identifying as non straight in some way, including asexual, though. It may be slightly uncomfortable for some people to accept, but that's no reason to pretend otherwise. 

 

Understanding asexuality as an orientation can also be important for sexual partners too - it means the lack of a satisfying sexual relationship isn't indicative of something else wrong with either person or the relationship. 

True there may be some correlation. That doesn't mean there is a direct cause and effect or that it's particularly relevant to asexuality other than an opinion in answer to the OP.

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Telecaster68

By definition, if there's a correlation, it's relevant. 

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daveb
9 hours ago, ryn2 said:

When you don’t even know about the concept and are not aro (so you do want to “do” relationships), a) you don’t even know you feel differently about sex than your peers do (especially before the internet when you couldn’t go read tons of non-fictional accounts from others your age) and b) you think sayings like “you just haven’t met the right person yet” and “maybe there’s something wrong with your hormones” are true.  You think something’s “broken” and you think you need to fix it.

 

7 hours ago, Serran said:

Its hard to know you arent into sex though, sometimes.

What they said.

 

6 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

By definition, if there's a correlation, it's relevant. 

If the correlation is weak the relevance is probably weak, too. And/or only relevant to some people. It would be a big mistake to say that it is relevant to the large percentage of aces who are not on the autism/asperger's spectrum. And may not even be relevant to some who are (like the sexual people who are on the spectrum). 

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alibali

It has relevance but it's still not cause and effect. I'm a prime example...lolol. Actually autism is better described as part of a wider neurodiversity spectrum, because we all have individual ways of looking at the world. On that basis autism is a dirty word because it leads to making judgements rather than accepting people the way they are.

 

I don't really like labels unless they help an individual understand and accept themselves....thus I identify as asexual as it best fits my sexuality, but it certainly doesn't explain anything else.

 

Autism....I wouldn't care if I thought i was. But I don't believe I am. And it isn't something I think should be a blanket assumption about asexuality. 

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Homer
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

By definition, if there's a correlation, it's relevant. 

I disagree.

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

 

4 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

I'm about to go out so I'll supply them later. I've posted them before (as have others) so you could probably find them with a bit of searching; alternatively search on Google Scholar. They're not hard to find. 

OK! I can wait! Just haven't seen them but loads of inferences to them.

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Sally

My daughter's autistic.  During middle and high school, she had obsessions about girls.  If she were able to have relationships, they would be with women.

 

I think every individual has the right to decide whether something is relevant to them.  Certainly, no person of one orientation should be stating that something is relevant to another orientation; that's applying personal stereotypes to whole groups of people.  Since I have autism in my family, I'm certainly aware of it, and I've never feel that autism is relevant to me as an ace.  

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InquisitivePhilosopher

@Sally @Homer Yes. Also, as an example, since there are several trans people here who are also asexual, it'd be incorrect for others to claim or assume that all or most asexuals are trans. So, likewise, just because there are several people here who are autistic, that doesn't mean that most or all asexuals are autistic, as well.

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IronHamster
15 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

A lot of peer reviewed robust studies do show a higher incidence of people on the spectrum identifying as non straight in some way, including asexual, though. It may be slightly uncomfortable for some people to accept, but that's no reason to pretend otherwise. 

 

Understanding asexuality as an orientation can also be important for sexual partners too - it means the lack of a satisfying sexual relationship isn't indicative of something else wrong with either person or the relationship. 

I think this is key.  If my wife has been honest and up front, whether she was asexual or a lesbian, that she was not sexually attracted to me, we could have taken another route, because at least we could have been honest.  We could have added a unicorn if she was a lesbian, or opened up the relationship.   Heck, I knew women that were sexually but not emotionally available.   We could have worked something out with clear, open, and honest communication.   It was my wife that was in violation of those principles.   

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ryn2

 

2 minutes ago, IronHamster said:

If my wife has been honest and up front, whether she was asexual or a lesbian, that she was not sexually attracted to me, we could have taken another route,

Did your wife know upfront that she was ace or a lesbian?  If you believe the answer is yes, is that because she ultimately confessed?

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IronHamster
2 hours ago, ryn2 said:

 

Did your wife know upfront that she was ace or a lesbian?  If you believe the answer is yes, is that because she ultimately confessed?

I may never have closure on this.  In all honesty, I do not believe she is lesbian in the slightest.  I am convinced she is an ace.  It has been over three months since I moved out, and she has shown no signs of getting a new partner.  Who can blame her, the way the laws are.  She can glean 30% of my hard earned income to not fuck.  I do not believe she has any incentive to change that.  That makes my payments a life sentence.

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anisotrophic

Having trouble feeling pity for this narrative. Doesn't sound like a friend, ally, or partner, either.

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Sally
1 hour ago, IronHamster said:

I may never have closure on this.  In all honesty, I do not believe she is lesbian in the slightest.  I am convinced she is an ace.  It has been over three months since I moved out, and she has shown no signs of getting a new partner.  Who can blame her, the way the laws are.  She can glean 30% of my hard earned income to not fuck.  I do not believe she has any incentive to change that.  That makes my payments a life sentence.

Perhaps she is quite happy not having a partner after her last experience.  

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Guest Jetsun Milarepa

No research references have appeared yet. It's just that a few decades ago, gay people were labelled as having a 'mental disorder' and many papers were written to underline this 'fact'. In another 20-40 years, will a future community be saying the same thing about today's research that appears to find correlations? 

 

Depending on the research used to formulate some of the assumptions in various related threads around AVEN, the whole thing could appear watertight...or not. Bias in the minds of researchers and the research chosen to illustrate theories can vary immensely from one person's reference list to another. 

 

Looking on google or wiki scholar, I could find loads of stuff...but not the research being specifically referred to here. That's the crux of the matter. 

 

Conversely, I could make sweeping statements about people's obsessions with the correlations between autism and asexuality on these threads as an indication of them being on the autism spectrum themselves. It's so easy to do this, but without an actual test result for that person (and this itself is subject to controversy in every area of psychology/psychiatry), then we can't infer much at all. Maybe we should contact Professor Baron Cohen?

 

 

 

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Homer
1 hour ago, IronHamster said:

I may never have closure on this.  In all honesty, I do not believe she is lesbian in the slightest.  I am convinced she is an ace.  It has been over three months since I moved out, and she has shown no signs of getting a new partner.  Who can blame her, the way the laws are.  She can glean 30% of my hard earned income to not fuck.  I do not believe she has any incentive to change that.  That makes my payments a life sentence.

I wouldn't expect anyone to get over a relationship that lasted many years within just a couple of months, but maybe that's just me? Do people just flip a switch and move on, after decades?

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alibali
2 hours ago, IronHamster said:

I may never have closure on this.  In all honesty, I do not believe she is lesbian in the slightest.  I am convinced she is an ace.  It has been over three months since I moved out, and she has shown no signs of getting a new partner.  Who can blame her, the way the laws are.  She can glean 30% of my hard earned income to not fuck.  I do not believe she has any incentive to change that.  That makes my payments a life sentence.

My ex and I separated nearly 3 years ago and have been divorced for over 3 months. He is sexual. As far as I know he hasn't found someone else and we have a daughter who I know he would be honest with.  

 

He is the sexual one. He doesn't have a new partner. It doesn't follow.

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Telecaster68

Here's the links I've posted before. Searching AVEN for posts by me with the words 'autism research' brought them up, so, not hard to find.

 

A selection, from the first page of results of putting the key terms into google. I'm sure a proper literature research would bring up more.

The first three are peer reviewed published research but you may need a subscription to read the full paper rather than the abstract. The second two are good, well sourced journalism which quote peer reviewed studies.

 

Other articles that touch on it:

  • Journal of Autism and Developmental Disorders, November 2013, Volume 43, Issue 11, pp 2584–2603, A Review of the Role of Female Gender in Autism Spectrum Disorders
  • A Review of the Role of Female Gender in Autism Spectrum Disorders, M Kirkovski et al. J Autism Dev Disord 43 (11), 2584-2603. 11 2013
  • Pfaus JG (2009) Pathways of sexual desire. J Sex Med 6: 1506–1533 [PubMed]

Beyond that, people seem to be convinced I'm saying things I've explicitly said I'm not saying, so there's little point in going over old ground.

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Telecaster68
18 hours ago, Homer said:

That's data mining, and they missed my favourite one: women's skirt length correlates with GDP growth. I agree those are spurious correlations. They're spurious because it's pretty easy to sift through vast amounts of data and come up with mathematical correlations, as you well know.The studies I'm quoting have specific aims, and populations, and set out test them in a specific way.

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ryn2
5 hours ago, IronHamster said:

In all honesty, I do not believe she is lesbian in the slightest.  I am convinced she is an ace. 

Is there a legal difference where you live?

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Serran
3 hours ago, Homer said:

I wouldn't expect anyone to get over a relationship that lasted many years within just a couple of months, but maybe that's just me? Do people just flip a switch and move on, after decades?

Some can. Personally, I was single over a year after my last relationship ended because I needed time. My ex was out with women he didnt like beyond casual sex within a few months, while trying to talk me into moving back...

 

I would imagine after being treated with no respect and then cheated on, it would be a lot harder to move on and you would need a lot of time. My ex wasnt the nicest, so the only reason I got with someone new was they understood and were very respectful and nice and made me feel safe. But, still took a bit. 

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Homer

I guess it heavily depends on whether you're the one leaving or if you are the one left behind...

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ryn2
9 minutes ago, Homer said:

I guess it heavily depends on whether you're the one leaving or if you are the one left behind...

Yes; all other circumstances aside, unless the person left behind was also contemplating a breakup and just got beaten to the punch the person leaving has already done much of the grieving and adjusting well before the event.

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Serran

Well. Depends on how hard it is for you. I left, because I didnt want to be in a toxic, abusive relationship anymore. But, he moved on faster cause he wasnt as damaged by the relationship as I was. Just missed sex, which requires a person. 

 

If you are damaged, that has to heal before you can find someone. 

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anisotrophic
1 hour ago, Telecaster68 said:

The first three are peer reviewed published research but you may need a subscription to read the full paper rather than the abstract.

For full papers, here's what some recommend: https://emilkirkegaard.dk/en/?p=7165

 

...

and @IronHamster's statements are both off topic and -- as a formerly-female sexual that likes to have sex with men -- strike me as misogynistic and hateful. Maybe he can make a new thread, but frankly, I would hope not to see things that come off as "my hated partner must be ace, I hate them and brag about getting even" at all in AVEN.

 

21 minutes ago, Serran said:

If you are damaged, that has to heal before you can find someone. 

My partner wants to encourage me to date others someday, maybe next year. I feel too messed up (not his fault) and don't want to try (also it's logistically way too challenging) but maybe with more time to heal, and with his support.

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