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Do humans have free will?


RoseGoesToYale

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RoseGoesToYale

Philosophy says yes, sociology says ish, psychology says ish, biology says no, anthropology says... I don't quite know what anthropology says.

 

What do you think... do we? Can free will be measured?

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I think you forgot things like culture, religion, politics, society etc. In some places, yes, to some extent more than others. On the other hand, what is "free will?"

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Guest community6seasons

Well, surely biology trumps everything. We can't overcome our genes? So I suppose, we have no free will. I, for one, welcome this being a very indecisive, negative, pessimistic person. Can blame it all on the genes.

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SorryNotSorry

Yes, but there are quite a few control freaks, religious fanatics, and other killjoys who wish humans didn't.

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I have no idea. I can guess, and back it up with whatever evidence I want, but there is no true answer. And my guess is that we have free will in certain things. Can't control your health that much if you genetically predisposed to some disease, but you can try to eat healthy and exercise. That can help your chances but you can still get sick. I feel like I'm overthinking this.

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Nah, probably not. 

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Scottthespy

I would say yes, even from a biological standpoint...and my proof of that would be all the people who go against their biology in baffling ways. Ignoring self preservation without a 'protect' trigger, seeking and enjoying fear that goes beyond 'safe' fear, living alone by choice despite being a specimen of a social species. We have instincts and physical limitations, but humans rather frequently ignore both of those things to do whatever the hell they want. Biology is not telling people to strap thin slats of wood to their feet and hurl themselves down mountains, or abstain from sex with the strong healthy specimen that makes them WANT to go all night long, or to deliberately wear clothes that earn them ridicule from their peers. Yet there are humans who do all these things. I believe in free will...

 

But that's a subjective opinion...one that could have been programmed into me by something I have no concept or comprehension of. Even my introspection, my 'what if I was programmed to be this way?' could have indeed been programmed...a self questioning algorithm. If free will does NOT exist, and my every thought is dictated, then even thoughts ABOUT that possible dictation are not proof against it...it could be the will of my programmer that I accept the possibility of a programmer. A sort of 'fourth wall questioner', not going so far as to KNOW I'm someone's creation, but to consider that I COULD be and would never know.

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FerlynnGoldbeard

I don't believe that I have free will, because I don't believe that free will exists, because I don't believe that there is anything (a deity or what have you) that would give me free will or control me in any way in the first place.

 

If we're considering biological factors like gene predisposition or huge corporations that spend billions trying to get us to believe or buy something, then I suppose yes in an odd way, but I'd say that that is a different conversation entirely. 

 

Or alternatively, we're all in a sim and none of it matters.

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Nope, because what you may want (to do) others may not want. 

For example free will may want to play music loud on the middle of the night, but your neighbours won't, and as a corollary they may want to do that and you don't want them to. 

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Nah, I believe it's all predetermined. We can never perceive, let alone compute, all the factors determining outcome... but if we could do so, we could predict everybody's thoughts and actions, at all times, with 100% accuracy.

 

We all just play by script, and part of our role description apparently includes the sentence "has the illusion of free will".

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It helps to define what exactly you mean by things like "free will" and "choice".

 

If free will is just the ability to make a choice and "choice" is just some decision making process, you arguably have free will even if the decision making process is deterministic.

 

If free will is the ability to make a choice free of outside influence (e.g. determinism) then it gets more complicated. I'd be inclined to say no.

 

Either way, the idea of "free will" loses a lot of its value when you start to add conditions like only being able to choose from physical possibilities (e.g. not being able to teleport yourself to Mars on a whim). It's akin to asking whether - or arguing that - a prisoner is "free" just because they can go anywhere they choose within the confines of their prison cell.

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36 minutes ago, Mysticus Insanus said:

Nah, I believe it's all predetermined. We can never perceive, let alone compute, all the factors determining outcome... but if we could do so, we could predict everybody's thoughts and actions, at all times, with 100% accuracy.

 

We all just play by script, and part of our role description apparently includes the sentence "has the illusion of free will".

Speaking of which, when did you decided to freely will yourself back after swearing not too?

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37 minutes ago, Una Salus Victus said:

Speaking of which, when did you decided to freely will yourself back after swearing not too?

When the White House got Nazified.

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WinterWanderer

I'm not sure if we have free will or not. I would say that we do, but that inevitably we are all part of the same system. And like cogs in a wheel, we influence the system and the system influences us.

 

I really just posted to say that I wouldn't necessarily conclude that biology "says no" to free will. It's not all about what's written in your genes. From a biological standpoint, there are many examples of the environment/lifestyle influencing what's already written in the genetic code. (I.e., epigenetics) Just because you are born with certain traits, it doesn't mean that they determine your potential.

 

If anything, I think biology would be neutral. It shows us that, yes, in a sense, we are programmed to look and function a certain way. But it's only those who are fittest that survive (whether that's because of their genes, their determination, pure chance, etc.).

 

But to be honest, philosophy isn't really my strong suit. :P

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Free will in an absolute sense can't exist because everything influences everything else. Determinism in that sense can't exist for the same reason. Even e.g. the knowledge of someone's future thoughts and actions will influence those thoughts and actions (although measuring the influence is just as impossible as measuring all the variables that could lead to this knowledge). Also the belief in determinism is dependant on the (imho false) assumption that there is an absolute beginning and an end. If there is no such thing it's logically impossible to determine when it all started and what will happen at the end.

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That's a toughie. I'm inclined to believe that we largely don't, but we're not exactly prisoners on a board game either. Here's my reasoning.

 

All of the events we've experienced in the past help make us who we are in the present existing moment. Those events cannot be altered, and so they irreversiblely set our future course. All of our future interactions to come are all determined by our past interactions and experiences, and that applies to everybody alive. And even before we were even born, all the events of the universe's history determined the present moment up to know. Change an event and you change everything. But you can't.

 

So, yes indeed, we make choices every day. But those choices are all determined by every event behind us. And while we have sapience and believe that we have the ability to choose, of multiple choice options, we only have the ability to choose only once in the present moment. And whatever choice we make was going to be the only choice we could have ever made in that moment. For instance.

 

"E, brush your teeth this morning."

 

I've a split second to make the choice of yes or no. What influences my choice? My teeth feel grungy. I had a cavity as a kiddo and decided I didn't like dentists. I'm in a hurry today, not enough time. I'm going to be drinking more coffee at work today which means more sugar. I pick yes to brush my teeth. The moment is already gone and in the past and cannot be reversed. I was only ever going to make that one choice and it couldn't have played out any other way due to the nature of time.

 

And if you want to delve even further, why don't we take multi-verse theory into account just for fun? Multi-verse theory basically means there's an infinite number of universes in their own bubbles. And therefore that means every single possible outcome that could ever potentially exist for a universe and the notion of choice is covered. While MV is a theory, the concept of it alone if it's true means that free will does not exist, as I would simply exist in conjunction with an infinite number of me's all making different choices.

 

The me that chose to brush his teeth this morning also chose not to brush his teeth this morning in a parallel universe. So I was fated from the beginning to make my choice, as one of my counterparts would inevitably make the choice not to, both because of my own existence and actions, and his own. And if you want one more thought on why I'm inclined to believe that we've no free will?

 

Life and death. We're born into this world without our choosing to be. So far as we know, we don't exist until the biological processes that allow us to exist happen. Swap a single sperm cell away and it wouldn't be us. We come from the void. And the great irony is, no matter how much we try to outrun it, we can't outrun death. No matter what choices we make, no matter how much we want to continue living, death shows up regardless and mugs us for everything we have.

 

Our fate was chosen from the moment we were born.

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Anthracite_Impreza

No.

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  • 2 weeks later...

If you think you don’t have free will simply mentally check out and watch your body act as fate would have it. Free yourself of the burden of choice by watching choice happen on autopilot. 

 

And the suddenly you recognize that you do have free will. 

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I don't believe in free will.  I believe in cause and effect, and that everything is happening at the gene/hormone/atomic level.  There are an almost infinite number of chemical reactions going off in every nanosecond, and they push forward the next chain of events.  It is like a river flowing.  I can't imagine that there is a privileged set of atoms that could step in and change what is happening.  How could that be?  It would mean those atoms were not bound by the same laws of nature as everything else.  Seems impossible to me.

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I find myself choosing to perceive myself and all others as having free will since if we have free will and live as though we do not, then we have squandered our capacity, whereas if it turns out that we do not have free will then my decision to perceive us as having free will was predetermined and therefore a moot point.

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On 8/19/2018 at 10:36 PM, Correner said:

since if we have free will and live as though we do not, then we have squandered our capacity

I'm not sure what capacity you are referring to--the capacity to believe in free will?

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Technically no. We’re pretty much organic robots programmed by our brains.

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1 hour ago, Gloomy said:

Technically no. We’re pretty much organic robots programmed by our brains.

I think the atoms of our brains and bodies are subject to the same physical laws.

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I don't think we do in any society where laws, the media, moral codes and social hierarchies, and many other factors influence our behavior on a regular basis.

 

Even things like free speech. You are kept fearful of truly saying what you want often due to those outside forces.

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