Young, Christian & Mismatched

[Telecaster68]

13 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

Entirely possible, even likely.  The original statement was that you can’t tickle yourself, though, not that you can’t tickle yourself in as novel or unpredictable a manner as someone else can.

It was implicit, to me anyhow, that you can't tickle yourself with the same effect as someone else tickling you, just like masturbation has a different effect to partnered sex. That was the context.

[ryn2]

14 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It was implicit, to me anyhow, that you can't tickle yourself with the same effect as someone else tickling you, just like masturbation has a different effect to partnered sex. That was the context.

It wasn’t implicit to me, and it doesn’t seem that’s how - or at least the only way - uhtred meant it from subsequent discussion, but I guess only uhtred knows for sure.

[ryn2]

Just now, ryn2 said:

It wasn’t implicit to me, and it doesn’t seem that’s how - or at least the only way - uhtred meant it from subsequent discussion, but I guess only uhtred knows for sure.

Actually, I shouldn’t say that.  When I initially replied I did expect someone to say they meant it the way you did.

 

However, in subsequent discussion it did sound like uhtred really can’t tickle himself at all... not just without the same full effect he gets from someone else doing it.

[Telecaster68]

13 hours ago, uhtred said:

I think that for  most sexual men and sexual women, masturbation does not in any way substitute for sex.  If you use the food analogy, it is bread and water which will keep you going for a while, but isn't satisfying.

 

The "you can't tickle yourself" is a very good way to put it. 

Pretty clear context to me.

 

You could say 'you can't strangle yourself', because you can't, fatally. But you can still grip your throat tight and stop yourself breathing till you pass out, so to that extent, you can carry out the action... it just won't have the same effect.

[ryn2]

...which is why I amended what I’d said to point out that I’d misspoken; I’d expected to have that pointed out initially.  Uhtred really seems to not be able to tickle himself, though.

 

Strangulation is a different case.  You can’t strangle yourself without assistance of some sort because you have to take conscious action and that requires... being conscious.

 

With tickling and sex it’s more subjective.  One does get a different experience alone than with a partner; that part’s reasonably factual.  However, whether that different partnered experience is better, worse, or neutral is a matter of personal experience.

 

When someone else tickles me, I have a different experience... in a way I enjoy less.  It’s a surefire way to piss me off and if it happens repeatedly it really undermines my trust in the person.

 

I wonder if that’s true with sex as well...  are aces really not experiencing the “extra gear,” or are they experiencing it and finding it less enjoyable than the lower gears were?  Probably varies from person to person.

[Telecaster68]

2 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

I wonder if that’s true with sex as well...  are aces really not experiencing the “extra gear,” or are they experiencing it and finding it less enjoyable than the lower gears were?  Probably varies from person to person.

It's both I think, in different combinations, and in quite a lot of cases, being uncomfortable with or just not feeling emotional closeness too, with all them intertwined and feeding on each other.

 

 

[ryn2]

2 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

It's both I think, in different combinations, and in quite a lot of cases, being uncomfortable with or just not feeling emotional closeness too, with all them intertwined and feeding on each other.

 

 

The partner experience is only a better experience for those who enjoy it.

 

Rollercoasters, e.g.  The physiological response is the same for many (excepting those who get motion-sick).  Some love it, some hate it, some are “whatever” about it.

[Telecaster68]

7 minutes ago, ryn2 said:

The partner experience is only a better experience for those who enjoy it.

 

We were talking about why some people don't enjoy it though. If someone said 'I'm scared of heights and I never go anywhere high', it would just be obtuse to insist fear of heights had no part in not wanting to go on a rollercoaster. If they do say that, it's more likely they're so scared of heights they can't bring themselves to even think about that fear, so they blank it out, and then insist it's nothing to do with it.

[ryn2]

Isn’t it possible they just don’t enjoy it?  I like dark chocolate and not milk chocolate.  My partner is the other way around. My BIL doesn’t like any chocolate.

 

Sure, there are people who are phobic or to a lesser degree afraid, but maybe some just don’t like the same things others do.

[Telecaster68]

Yeah, it is possible. In the case of asexuality, if they have no other issues going on that significantly affect how close they're willing to get other people, physically or emotionally, I'll take 'nope, just don't want to'. Otherwise, Occam's Razor.

[ryn2]

If the simplist explanation is the most likely one, wouldn’t that favor “just don’t like it”?

[ryn2]

I mean, we’ve probably all got some degree of baggage behind our choices - e.g., there’s likely a reason we both chose emotionally unavailable partners, even though we aren’t at the same place on the sexual spectrum - and who knows how much that stuff factors into our likes and dislikes?  As a kid I convinced myself I hated dark chocolate and loved cherry-flavored candy because I wanted to be more like my father and as little as possible like my mother.  In reality, nope and nope.  Is there some deep, secret reason I flip-flipped as an adult?  All I know is that I still don’t want to be like my mother.  *shrugs*

[Telecaster68]

1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

If the simplist explanation is the most likely one, wouldn’t that favor “just don’t like it”?

That isn't an explanation. 

[Philip027]

Why do you kids like Apple Jacks?

 

They don't even taste like apple!

[ryn2]

6 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

That isn't an explanation. 

Sometimes not liking it is the whole explanation behind not liking something.  There are a few colors I don’t care for, just because I don’t like them... no bad associations, etc.  I could say “they just don’t appeal to me” but that’s the same difference as saying I don’t like them.

[Telecaster68]

This isn't about colours though. It's about having a strong aversion to something that for the overwhelming majority of people is hardwired in the same way food and shelter are, and often allied with pretty much being asocial, again, hardwired for most people. 

[ryn2]

7 minutes ago, Philip027 said:

Why do you kids like Apple Jacks?

 

They don't even taste like apple!

There’s something I haven’t eaten in a million years!

[InProgress]

16 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

This isn't about colours though. It's about having a strong aversion to something that for the overwhelming majority of people is hardwired in the same way food and shelter are, and often allied with pretty much being asocial, again, hardwired for most people. 

Is it safe to assume that there is some correlation then with being asexual and being asocial?

[uhtred]

Whats interesting is that I have no idea *why* I can't tickle myself.  The physical sensation is the same, but there is no reaction at all.

 

Sexually I can stimulate myself to orgasm (as can most people) but again its very different from sex (even hand sex) with another person. 

 

The two seem somehow related, but I can't quite put it together. 

[Telecaster68]

1 minute ago, InProgress said:

Is it safe to assume that there is some correlation then with being asexual and being asocial?

I'm just going by the fairly high proportion of posts on AVEN saying they don't like people in general, don't like to socialise, etc.

[ryn2]

16 minutes ago, Telecaster68 said:

This isn't about colours though. It's about having a strong aversion to something that for the overwhelming majority of people is hardwired in the same way food and shelter are, and often allied with pretty much being asocial, again, hardwired for most people. 

*shrugs*  I don’t have a strong aversion to sex and I’m definitely not asocial.  I just don’t personally find it better than masturbation, although I understand (and am fine with it) that others do.

 

I’ve seen theories that the emotional bond part evolved to raise kids and I didn’t want to do that either.  Who knows?

[ryn2]

4 minutes ago, InProgress said:

Is it safe to assume that there is some correlation then with being asexual and being asocial?

There’s some likelihood that people who prefer to avoid people in general would also prefer to avoid relationships and potentially sex.... but, otherwise, no.  There are some (typically aro) ace posters here who are cheerfully single and as alone as possible but there are many others who have different people and romantic preferences.

[ryn2]

5 minutes ago, uhtred said:

The physical sensation is the same, but there is no reaction at all.

Reaction like it tickling, or reaction of some more emotional sort?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, ryn2 said:

*shrugs*  I don’t have a strong aversion to sex and I’m definitely not asocial.  I just don’t personally find it better than masturbation, although I understand (and am fine with it) that others do.

 

I’ve seen theories that the emotional bond part evolved to raise kids and I didn’t want to do that either.  Who knows?

Hm. 

 

Well, personally, I'm with you - I have no strong aversion to sex. My strong aversion to things due to trauma involved masturbation. I actually would get near having a panic attack if I saw someone masturbate.

 

And now I'm with my spouse, I actually lost my aversion to masturbation (involving them, not involving other people). It's very funny. I still find PiV, anal, oral highly boring activities. But, the one thing I always had an extreme aversion to - hand stuff, masturbation, anything relating to that - I actually like now. That's how my desire manifested when I finally got it.  

 

So, really, I don't think finding a cause is much help in why someone doesn't like something... it's enough that they don't. Cause their dislikes could change. Someone averse to sex could really love it, if they had desire for it. But, without that, it's hard to get over the gross factor, or the other uncomfortable factors. 

 

Asexuals don't desire sex cause, well, they lack the desire for it. I've felt both. Love without desire and love with it. I don't really consider love without it missing anything - it was still a complete experience (edit: in case my silly partner reads this, meaning the sex part doesn't make it better - obviously the relationship with them is far superior overall than my exes and the compatibility is far better which lead to the desire... but if we lost sexual acts it would still be a complete thing for me). And honestly, I get nothing more from sexual activities than I get from cuddling still - I still get that high, bonding mmmm I love you so much from that. Geez, I get it from playing video games with my spouse and them just being so incredibly adorable. And now, I can also get it from sexual acts. But, honestly, I find it all quite equal. Which, I know most people who desire sexual things do not find it equal to the other activities. So, why am I different? I don't know. Just am. 

 

Is it possible some people are emotionally unable to get close enough to trigger desire ? Maybe. Maybe not. It's kind of impossible to tell what really causes lack of desire. I needed an extremely close bond and a higher level of comfort than I thought existed. But, who is to say if I ever break up with my current spouse and I find another person who is just as respectful, just as understanding and just as patient, that I'd actually want them, even if I loved them? It could be a one off. So maybe that's not it. Maybe it's something unique about my partner causing it. It's seriously impossible to figure out the triggers things like that. I didn't even want to self-pleasure until I met my spouse. Why did an emotional bond with a person cause a libido, which is independent of desire for partnered activity in most? Who knows? Who really cares? 

 

So, one can speculate til the cows come home about what may be contributing factors to asexuality. But, just as with any orientation, there won't be a true answer. Because one person may be abused and end up asexual, one may end up sexual. One may be emotionally open and very affectionate and asexual, another may be touch averse and closed off and be sexual. It's hard to point at something and go "that's why" - cause there will always be people who reacted differently to it. Humans are too many complex emotions, thoughts and mixtures of genetic dispositions to really know for sure what caused any specific trait for sure. That's why we're never going to actually solve the nature vs nurture arguments, or born this way disputes. 

[uhtred]

11 hours ago, ryn2 said:

Reaction like it tickling, or reaction of some more emotional sort?

Someone else tickling me causes a strong physical reaction - one which it turns out I don't actually like much, but it makes me squirm and laugh.  I can't get that reaction at all trying to tickle myself - just no  real reaction at all, just feels like a soft touch.

 

For sex, doing things for my self causes physical arousal, but it is less intense (or something, words aren't good at this) than when someone else does basically the same thing to me. Its not a night / day difference like ticking, but its significant . That is separate from the strong emotional difference/