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what kind of legal right an ace can be deprived of?


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Discoverasexuality

few days back, i posted a similar topic here regarding the lgbt+ community's right and our contributional support to it. A person gave a meaningful insight there calling it , single's right which deprive lot of US single citizens from basic public health schemes and all.

Any more reflections what discrimination  we ACE can face in we 'come out' /in closet in the society due to our minority/rare sexual orientation?

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banana monkey

Can you post the link to the other thread so that I can understand what you mean? Particularly the single's right bit. maybe I dont understand because things are different here in UK. 

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Here are a few theoretical ones I can think of, though I'm not aware of situations where these are actively being denied:

  • Not recognizing an "unconsummated" marriage (i.e. not had sex)
  • Being denied medical care if a medical practitioner doesn't believe asexuality is valid and needs to be treated as a disease before allowing treatment of other health problems (like not prescribing medication for mental illness until some imposed level of sexual activity is reached)
  • Discrimination in employment by assuming that asexual folks don't have the same interpersonal skills or motivation for success as sexual folks do

There are more that revolve around common characteristics that overlap with asexuality, including singleness. Discrimination against singleness certainly happens in many ways: financially, socially, employment, housing, health care, education, etc. This discrimination against singleness is definitely in line with the causes and struggles the asexual community should seek to address, even though they're not applicable to all asexual people.

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I know that in the UK there are tax breaks for married people. So this discriminates against single people and asexuals.

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Some adoption agencies wont adopt out to ace couples due to not seeing it as a real marriage

 

Some immigration laws state a marriage has to be consummated to count 

 

Those are the main legal ones I can think of. 

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1 hour ago, banana monkey said:

Can you post the link to the other thread so that I can understand what you mean? 

 

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Asexuality if not legally recognised as an orientation (like I think it is in the UK) could mean hate crimes against aces wouldn't be seen as a hate crime, even if similar circumstances for say a homosexual individual would be a hate crime. E.g. if I was assulted just for being ace, the person would get a lesser sentance than if the same person had assulted a gay man. Conversion theropy from ace to steaight could still be technically legal too while it's being outlawed in the UK for other (read as LGBT but maybe not any of the +) orientation and gender identities.

 

Though for the UK that could be fixed by amending definitions of sexual orientation in stuff like the equality act to be more open to other orie tation and gender identites.

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EggplantWitch

As Scott says, the fact asexuality isn't considered a real, legal orientation in the eyes of the British law does scare me a lot. I'm terrified of something terrible happening to me because I'm ace, and knowing that a perpretrator could get a lesser sentence is equally as scary. Asides from that, because asexuality is much more of an 'invisible' orientation the laws of various countries don't discriminate against us as much as they do other gender and/or sexual orientations. However, as I'm sure you're well aware, there are many kinds of discrimination outside of the legal kind.

 

Also, unrelated to the topic but no one else has pointed it out: it's just 'ace', not 'ACE'. It's shorthand, not an acronym (though now I'm tempted to try and think up a stupid string of words that could make it an acronym).

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22 minutes ago, EggplantWitch said:

. I'm terrified of something terrible happening to me because I'm ace, and knowing that a perpretrator could get a lesser sentence is equally as scary.

There is no reason that someone who assaults an asexual person would get a lesser sentence.  Assault is assault; it's the crime that's punished.  

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1 minute ago, Sally said:

There is no reason that someone who assaults an asexual person would get a lesser sentence.  Assault is assault; it's the crime that's punished.  

True, the charge of assault is there but the view of it being a hate crime is not so the sentence is 'lesser' if I understand right

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1 hour ago, Sywei said:

True, the charge of assault is there but the view of it being a hate crime is not so the sentence is 'lesser' if I understand right

If the person assaulting you 1) doesn't know that you're asexual and 2) doesn't make specific remarks to you indicating that he's assaulting you because you're asexual, then it is obviously not a hate crime.   But hate crimes are not considered such everywhere; in the US, there are only a few states that have hate crime statutes.  It's pretty difficult to prove a hate crime in court.  

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To Each Their Own

For example, someone knows you’re asexual and then rapes you because they think it will some how make you straight (or it will punish you for not being straight). That’s pretty much a hate crime. 

 

And it’s pretty much what my husband did to me for four years. 

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12 minutes ago, To Each Their Own said:

For example, someone knows you’re asexual and then rapes you because they think it will some how make you straight (or it will punish you for not being straight). That’s pretty much a hate crime. 

 

And it’s pretty much what my husband did to me for four years. 

It is definitely rape, which is a serious felony.  In the US, at least, wives can charge their husbands with rape.  A hate crime would be hard to prove; it would depend upon what reason your husband gave for raping you.  

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To Each Their Own
21 minutes ago, Sally said:

It is definitely rape, which is a serious felony.  In the US, at least, wives can charge their husbands with rape.  A hate crime would be hard to prove; it would depend upon what reason your husband gave for raping you.  

You are right. What my husband did to me was “only” rape. Not a hate crime. Back when it happened to me, it was not considered rape. 

 

I was was just giving an example of what a hate crime would be. 

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16 hours ago, Serran said:

Some immigration laws state a marriage has to be consummated to count

 

Do you think this could give the ICE a reason to declare a mariage invalid and have the non US-native expelled ?

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Telecaster68
6 hours ago, Sally said:

It is definitely rape, which is a serious felony.  In the US, at least, wives can charge their husbands with rape.  A hate crime would be hard to prove; it would depend upon what reason your husband gave for raping you.  

In the UK, marital rape is still rape, and 'hate crime' is an aggravating factor in a lot of offences, so the sentence could be harsher because of it, but it does require proof - like a history of racist speech towards the victim's ethnic group from the perpetrator, for example. Purely legally, how would this work with asexuality, since there's no similar way of demonstrating asexuality and it's all about self-identification. The guilty defendant would presumably contest that identification during the mitigation part of sentencing, so it would come down to another 'he said she said' argument. 

 

Even though it's not an official category, courts do take context into account, and if the rapist was clearly still convinced they were right, and showed no remorse, and the offence was repeated over a long period (all of which would be likely in this case) those things in themselves would be likely to increase the sentence.

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everywhere and nowhere
9 hours ago, EggplantWitch said:

Also, unrelated to the topic but no one else has pointed it out: it's just 'ace', not 'ACE'. It's shorthand, not an acronym (though now I'm tempted to try and think up a stupid string of words that could make it an acronym).

There are lots of "backronyms" made to supposedly explain words. For example, there is an urban legend that the F-word supposedly comes from "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge", that supposedly when people were put in stocks for adultery, the acronym was hanged over their heads to point out to their crime... In truth, words originating from acronyms were very rare in pre-20th-century English.

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Not having access to counseling where our orientation can be taken seriously. I told a therapist, and within the hour had won twice on my asexual bingo card. It can have serious affects on mental health

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2 hours ago, Nidwin said:

 

Do you think this could give the ICE a reason to declare a mariage invalid and have the non US-native expelled ?

This is no longer part of modern state law. Once a couple has a marriage license they're married in the eyes of the government. What else they have to do (ceremony wise) can vary by state or county.

 

That said, it may be up to the immigration officer assigned. If they notice the couple doesn't kiss, which most aces don't like kissing, they may think that's fishy. They want to see a loving, committed relationship.

 

The term consummation used in divorce proceedings as follows:

Quote

Consummation of marriage refers to the first time the husband and wife co-habit together or engage in sexual intercourse, after the ceremony of marriage has been performed. Under canon law (Catholic Church), a refusal to consummate the marriage may be grounds for an annulment or for divorce. But this is not so at common law or under modern state law.

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Discoverasexuality

@IcyZorua what means winning bingo card? i am from india and dont know so much of american phrases...cud you share your experience?

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@Discoverasexuality I realize I wasn't very specific when I said that... basically, it's when someone put together a bunch of negative things people say to asexuals and makes a game out of it, where you mark the square every time you hear that phrase and see if you can get five in a row. Here's an example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SRSBingo/comments/4qk8qm/youre_asexual_bingo_pt_2/

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Discoverasexuality

@IcyZorua  oh, i have got it now... 'i can fix that' and 'u're a late bloomer' re the most common lines ive gone through...

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Discoverasexuality

@EggplantWitch  "a perpretrator could get a lesser sentence is equally as scary" what kind of crimes you're referring here? i saw few others also mentioned this. in which instances of assault an ace victim would receive a reduced quality of justice under British Law?

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everywhere and nowhere
1 hour ago, IcyZorua said:

@Discoverasexuality I realize I wasn't very specific when I said that... basically, it's when someone put together a bunch of negative things people say to asexuals and makes a game out of it, where you mark the square every time you hear that phrase and see if you can get five in a row. Here's an example:

https://www.reddit.com/r/SRSBingo/comments/4qk8qm/youre_asexual_bingo_pt_2/

But how does the "free space" in the center work?

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It's a very weird discussion... "Forms of sexuallity" are not legally "recognised", because they are not a legal category at all... (in my county, Belgium, for instance).  More, a the fact is that asexuality is 99,999% about not having sex, then how can not having sex have any relation to "forms of sexuality" ??  (In other words : effectively having sex in several ways...)   Lets not construct problems where there are none, please. 

Here in Belgium, towards the law, there are only THESE categories

(..having influence on income tax, inheritance, kids etc)

You can be

single and living alone,

single and living together in one house (housesharing),

a non married couple but living alone (LAT),

a non married couple and living together without a living-together contract,

a non married couple and living together with a living-together contract (this is a legal document), 

a married couple living together, 

a married couple living apart ('separated of table & bed', as it is called here).  

NON of these include a notion of "sex" neither no sex. 

They do include notions on childeren. (Namegiving, legal parency etc)  ALL of the forementioned legal categories, can involve childeren, or not....

 

If the original question post is about the USA, I think it should be respected to be a discussion about the USA, only...  non Americans can only tell about our own country, and thus not responding to the original question... 🙂

 

Cheers

 

                   

 

 

 

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Telecaster68
1 hour ago, Discoverasexuality said:

@EggplantWitch  "a perpretrator could get a lesser sentence is equally as scary" what kind of crimes you're referring here? i saw few others also mentioned this. in which instances of assault an ace victim would receive a reduced quality of justice under British Law?

In the UK, perpetrators wouldn't get a reduced sentence because the victim was an asexual. They just won't get it a harsher sentence in the same way as if the perpetrator had targetted their victim because they're a member of a specific group like being gay, or black, or whatever.

 

Although, I can see how a prosecutor might argue that since asexuality is often seen as part of the LGBT+ community, and if the perpetrator had a record of saying hateful things and espousing corrective rape for asexuals, hate as an aggravating factor should be taken into account in sentencing.

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I don't think a victim's sexuality would be a factor for rape charges here in the States. I do understand the fear of lax sentences after Brock Turner raped an unconscious woman, was caught by witnesses, and got a slap on the wrist. 

 

That judge was recently recalled, but that's not enough. We have a system that allows shit weasels like Turner to get away with rape. 

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2 hours ago, Telecaster68 said:

Although, I can see how a prosecutor might argue that since asexuality is often seen as part of the LGBT+ community, and if the perpetrator had a record of saying hateful things and espousing corrective rape for asexuals, hate as an aggravating factor should be taken into account in sentencing.

Depending on how the law is written, rape based on intent to invalidate asexuality could be a hate crime simply based on sexual orientation. If the law specifically names orientations like homosexuality and bisexuality then that's a problem for a number of reasons. If the law states sexual orientation in general, then asexuality should be covered without having to argue it's part of LGBT+. It would only have to be established as a sexual orientation (and if that's not accepted in the court of law, that's a clear way asexuals may face systemic discrimination). 

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Telecaster68

The Crown Prosecution Service, which takes all the prosecutions in England and Wales, uses this infographic:

 

004_c_0_0.png

 

https://www.cps.gov.uk/hate-crime

 

They give more details here, and it looks like asexuality could be covered:

 

Quote

 

In England and Wales the monitored strands of hate crime are:

  • racially and religiously aggravated;
  • homophobic, biphobic and transphobic; and 
  • disability hate crime.

These strands are covered by legislation (sections 28-32 of the Crime and Disorder Act 1998 and sections 145 and 146 of the Criminal Justice Act 2003) which allows prosecutors to apply for an uplift in sentence for those convicted of a hate crime.

The police and the CPS have agreed the following definition for identifying and flagging hate crimes:

"Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice, based on a person's disability or perceived disability; race or perceived race; or religion or perceived religion; or sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation or transgender identity or perceived transgender identity."

There is no legal definition of hostility so we use the everyday understanding of the word which includes ill-will, spite, contempt, prejudice, unfriendliness, antagonism, resentment and dislike.

 

 

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